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Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of.

 
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Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 6:59:17 AM   
Tankerace


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By many accounts, my first port 1.3 Pearl Harbor was my worst. 5 BBs moderately damaged, 1 crippled, and 1 sunk. But a most amazing thing happened. Pearl got off a strike at the KB. Escorted by around 50 fighters, 4 B-17s, 1 A-20s, and 17 SBDs went in. No hits were scored, but the fact it happened shocked me.

I am amazed. The game plays with a greater historical feel now. Wake is in jeopardy, and no longer were 4 BBs berely scratched and ready for service. Great job guys!

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 7:02:39 AM   
von Murrin


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Yeah, I got absolutely hammered at Pearl. Previously, I never lost more than one BB and often not even quite that much. The game seems, on the whole, much more polished.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 7:30:26 AM   
Tankerace


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No joke on that. My usually Scenario 15 (or for me, 27 ) tactic is to take PoW, Repulse, and all the CLs and DDs at Singapore, go into Khota Baru and hammer the Japanese invasion fleet. Man, was I surprised.

I ran into the Japanese cruiser force - no surprise there. The first rounds of combat I got hammered, the PoW being struck by several 8 Inch shells, then she and the DD Vendetta each ate a torpedo. In the second round of combat, PoW struck Mogami with 7 out of a salvo of 10 14 inch shells, and her magazine exploded. Then PoW ate a second torpedo. The CL Mauritus succeeded in touching off Kumano's magazine, before she was put out of action. The Vendetta (or maybe Vampire) ate a second torpedo, turned turtle and sank.

In the second battle, The same British force engaged a transport fleet, and sank every one of the escorts and damaged a merchant before retiring.

During the day, PoW beat off a force of 30 Bettys, suffering no damage. Then, spotted by a Japanese submarine, she took another torpedo hit. The escorting DDs sank that sub, plus 1 more before the turn finished.

PoW, amazingly, is in no danger of sinking. with less than 30 sys and 30 float damage, she is more than capable of making repairs at Singapore before heading to Ceylon. But the lesson here is, no longer are the waters of the DEI and Malay safe haven for capital ships. In 1.21, it wasn't until about February that I finally had to withdrawl to India and Australia. I got lucky. This time around, on the day after Pearl, I almost lost the core of my striking power in the Eastern Pacific. As it is, now I am forced to go wholly on the defensive. Now the game is much more polished. As soon as the last bugs can be ironed out, I think we will have a true gem.

In other news, Wake is holding, and the Lady Lex and Big E are coming to settle the score. Though this time, they won't go on a month long hunt like they would do in pre 1.3 times.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 7:55:28 AM   
von Murrin


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Heh. I tried the Khota Baru gambit for the first time in about seven game starts. I lost PoW and a DD (can't remember which one), got generally whupped, and beat up a few IJN DD's. Owww...

My Wake held as well, both CV TF's were sent in at full speed, and will be hitting the invasion TF's this next turn.

1.30 is excellent.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 4:25:40 PM   
rtrapasso


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I tried the scenario 15 opening as Allies in ver 1.3, and was rather shocked. Yeah, my BBs got beat up, none sunk (yet - one is in critical condition) - but a carrier TF reacted and the aircraft from Pearl came in at the same time, striking the IJN carriers multiple times. Unfortunately, I kept getting "Belt Hit" with 1000 pound bombs (with no real damage) on the carriers, except one that looks like it got pounded into a flaming hulk. Not only that, the remaining ships at Pearl had formed into a task force ready to go out in pursuit. Exciting stuff! Quite an addition to the AI!!

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 11/5/2004 10:27:14 AM >


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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 4:34:18 PM   
tsimmonds


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quote:

But a most amazing thing happened. Pearl got off a strike at the KB. Escorted by around 50 fighters, 4 B-17s, 1 A-20s, and 17 SBDs went in. No hits were scored, but the fact it happened shocked me.


quote:

- but a carrier TF reacted and the aircraft from Pearl came in at the same time, striking the IJN carriers multiple times. Unfortunately, I kept getting "Belt Hit" with 1000 pound bombs (with no real damage) on the carriers, except one that looks like it got pounded into a flaming hulk. Not only that, the remaining ships at Pearl had formed into a task force ready to go out in pursuit.

How is this happening; do you guys have surprise turned off? Or did the AI KB fail for some reason to attack the airbase? If so, I wonder why? I'm not really sure about this.....

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 4:57:47 PM   
rtrapasso


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Surprise was on in my games. What I THINK happened was the AI decided to go after LOTS of ships at Pearl. I had most of my BBs pretty beat up, and lots and lots of other ships smashed up too. The airfield got hit, but not terribly badly as it did in my 1.21 game. In that game, most of my BB were hit, almost no other ships, but my airfields were absolutely devastated. I had only something 12 aircraft flyable, and most of those were Catalinas.

What I think happens is the AI decides what it wants to go after, and hits those hard. In my 1.21 game, it smashed BBs and really smashed the airfield. In the 1.3 start, it tried hitting everything, so the airfield got off more lightly. The BBs were still hit hard, but lots of DD, CAs, CLs, etc. also got smashed up. The AI has only so many aircraft to fly, and so the results come out differently depending on what it decides to clobber. Also, since the carrier TF was located, they may have been having problems with their "second wave" followup attack since their Zeros were busy defending, ships were dodging bombs, and one CV was severely damaged. This probably affected their strike(s) on Pearl.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 5:04:32 PM   
tsimmonds


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quote:

Also, since the carrier TF was located, they may have been having problems with their "second wave" followup attack since their Zeros were busy defending, ships were dodging bombs, and one CV was severely damaged. This probably affected their strike(s) on Pearl.

There is no separate second wave in the game. There is one attack on each of the separate targets (port, airbase, etc). But that is not so different than the actual event; IRL none of the A/C involved made two strikes, they just attacked at different times. Nagumo's staff urged him to attack again in the afternoon, but he decided against it. The game does not allow such a strike, A/C can only fly one time per day.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 5:08:04 PM   
rtrapasso


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I just thought of another explanation: It could be that the game decided that the carriers were spotted in time for a strike to get off at them from the Land Based air, but after they had launched initial attack. Ie - IJN launches at 6:00 a.m., US launches at 7:00 am, Pearl Hit at 7:20 a.m., IJN hit at 7:45, or something along those lines. Maybe because the carrier spotted them? Ot maybe the Naval Base hit first, and Land Base air took off before they got hit. Looking at the condition of the air bases after the attack, they look pretty beat up (>50% runway damage).

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 5:43:27 PM   
Williamb

 

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The difference i think is that the KB is getting spotted more. I have surprize turned off and float planes from US ships at pearl (not the PBYs) are finding the KB.

The airstrike that hits them is launched BEFORE the pearl attack.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 6:12:15 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

Also, since the carrier TF was located, they may have been having problems with their "second wave" followup attack since their Zeros were busy defending, ships were dodging bombs, and one CV was severely damaged. This probably affected their strike(s) on Pearl.

There is no separate second wave in the game. There is one attack on each of the separate targets (port, airbase, etc). But that is not so different than the actual event; IRL none of the A/C involved made two strikes, they just attacked at different times. Nagumo's staff urged him to attack again in the afternoon, but he decided against it. The game does not allow such a strike, A/C can only fly one time per day.


Yeah, I realize this - that's why I put "second wave" in quotes. I am not sure exactly how the game models this, though - does the game have an instantaneous take off for the entire strike, or is it modelled to take time? In the pre 1.30 I think the strike take off is instantaneous, but I am not sure how 1.3 handles it. If it is non-instaneous the later part of the attack (i.e. "second strike"), it might be affected by US attacks.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 11/5/2004 12:13:43 PM >


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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/5/2004 10:20:12 PM   
Tankerace


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I think surprise was on, but it might have been off. KB was spotted by some SOC-3s, and a few PBYs. My airbases got hit, but not as bad as pre 1.3. Still, I'll take it. No Jap CVs hit, and a bunch of planes were smashed up.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/6/2004 2:32:13 AM   
byron13


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I ran through several first turns with my shiny brand-new v1.3 on variable set-up and otherwise. On a historical first turn, you get significant variability. I decided to stay with one that really spanked the BBs: two sunk, two at 99 system damage, and the rest in the 60s or 70s, but no flotation damage over about 60. I might get them back in time for Tokyo Bay. On the other hand, Nevada only had 8 system and 8 float. Go figger. Must have been in drydock.

I also found that Wake fell in almost every iteration. Sigh.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/6/2004 2:58:00 AM   
Halsey

 

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Aircraft can only fly one land attack mission each day. If the PH fleet was in a TF the results would be more dramatic. Probably with multiple waves, depending on the die rolls.

It would be interesting to see what kind of damage a PH fleet TF would take. Putting as many ships that could fit into an Escort TF, starting with capital ships and working down.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/6/2004 11:24:40 AM   
Bobthehatchit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: byron13

I ran through several first turns with my shiny brand-new v1.3 on variable set-up and otherwise. On a historical first turn, you get significant variability. I decided to stay with one that really spanked the BBs: two sunk, two at 99 system damage, and the rest in the 60s or 70s, but no flotation damage over about 60. I might get them back in time for Tokyo Bay. On the other hand, Nevada only had 8 system and 8 float. Go figger. Must have been in drydock.

I also found that Wake fell in almost every iteration. Sigh.


I got off so lightly sen 15 historical first turn ( AI )! All bb's damage 30+ sys up to 60 but none sunk and wake held although i am pulling the troops out and moving them back to Midway. Found KB to be a lot more agreesive around the Dei with the betties and nells mixed in its a very unhealthy place to be in a ship!

And one of my s boats nailed Soryu with two fish off Davro a few week later! "Fuel and ammo storage explision" can't be healthy now can it!

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/6/2004 5:44:25 PM   
rtrapasso


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Well, I went back and checked to see if surprise was on - it is.

I had set up using variable set-up, highly variable reinforcements. In going back and examining the turn, I found this in the Ops reports:

"OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR 12/07/41


OPERATION INFIELD
Admiral Kimmel, uneasy about vague dispatches from Washington,
keeps carriers close to Pearl and organizes interdiction task forces,
in case the Japanese plan to attack Pearl Harbor.
Kimmel calls alert for some bases, as do some other commanders."

So, thus the attacks on the carriers... It remains to be seen what the IJN will do about 2 carriers so close to them next turn... I am having them bravely run away to the defense of Wake, which did not fall turn 1.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/8/2004 10:11:40 AM   
Cmdrcain


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My 1.30 first turn with historical, no variable, japanese surprise pretty much KO'ed the fleet, also Wake fell turn 1, it simply often falls too fast..

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/07/41

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Singapore , at 23,50

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 22
G3M Nell x 98

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 2 destroyed, 9 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 14 destroyed, 7 damaged
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged
Vildebeest IV: 14 destroyed, 4 damaged

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 19

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Clark Field , at 43,51

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 70
G3M Nell x 36
G4M1 Betty x 54
Ki-46-II Dinah x 2

Allied aircraft
P-26A x 2
P-35A x 4
P-40B Tomahawk x 2
P-40E Warhawk x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 1 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-26A: 9 destroyed, 9 damaged
P-35A: 22 destroyed, 5 damaged
P-40B Tomahawk: 17 destroyed, 18 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 8 destroyed, 11 damaged
B-17C Fortress: 8 destroyed, 9 damaged


Allied ground losses:
46 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 29
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 131

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Clark Field , at 43,51

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 25

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 1

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
13 casualties reported

Airbase hits 6
Runway hits 41

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 112,68

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 76
D3A Val x 126
B5N Kate x 143

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1
P-26A x 3
P-36A Mohawk x 3
P-40B Tomahawk x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed, 6 damaged
D3A Val: 17 destroyed, 43 damaged
B5N Kate: 10 destroyed, 16 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 10 destroyed, 3 damaged
P-26A: 10 destroyed, 4 damaged
P-36A Mohawk: 35 destroyed, 16 damaged
P-40B Tomahawk: 43 destroyed, 41 damaged
PBY Catalina: 40 destroyed, 49 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 7 destroyed, 9 damaged
SBD Dauntless: 16 destroyed, 10 damaged
A-20B Boston: 9 destroyed, 7 damaged
B-18A Bolo: 5 destroyed, 22 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB California, Bomb hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AV Curtiss, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 11, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 10, on fire
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
AV Wright, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DM Montgomery, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 7, on fire
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
ML Ogalala, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP U.S. Grant, Bomb hits 1
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 1
AK Laida, Bomb hits 1
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 1
DD Ralph Talbot, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DM Gamble, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


Allied ground losses:
189 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 54
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 166

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Wake Island, 82,63, firing at TF 16
TF 16 troops unloading over beach at Wake Island, 82,63

92 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CL Tenryu, Shell hits 6
AP Kinryu Maru, Shell hits 3, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
129 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Wake Island

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1457 troops, 39 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1524 troops, 15 guns, 0 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
80 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Wake Island

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1429 troops, 14 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1897 troops, 39 guns, 2 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Wake Island base !!!


******************

Doesnt show it but the BB PEnna took a hit and had magazine explode.

Wake is ridiculous, perhaps the attacking force is too big or else the
allied base needs a bit higher starting Fort level to really
sim the historical fact of wake holding out for days... instead of wake often falling turn 1..

The pearl BB forces had no fewer then 7 bomb hits putting all out of action with BB Penna sinking..

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/8/2004 10:26:27 AM   
Tankerace


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Wake falling shortly after turn one? 1 out of 6 times with me it falls, the rest I hold it... and then I use it.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/8/2004 1:02:22 PM   
Sredni

 

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My first turn KB hammered my BB's leaving all but 2 (which were untouched) with 50-99 sys damage. A handfull of cruisers and dd's also took 30-50 sys damage but not many. And then my air units (including units from both cv's who were close by ph) turned around and bombed KB, getting a handfull of hits in on several CV's. Alas it's a month later and KB's shown up in the DEI so I don't think he took much damage.

Wake also held, and at some point he either evacuated his assaulting units, or my marines killed em all cause before my bombardment TF got there to relieve them there was nothing left (I wasn't paying attention unfortunately so I don't know what exactly happened to em). Kinda dissapointing, was hoping to see my two BB's and cruisers and dd's tangle with his cruiser/dd bombardment force there, but they flew the coop along with the ground units.

I've tested a few times sending singapores british fleet to khota baru, but each time the ground based air units in indochina have hammered me hard enough to cripple the fleet before it managed to come to grips with anything. So I run them north to india and then use them to run nighttime bombardments on tavoy. This time the japanese seemed to have gotten wise and brought in some nells to deal with em! ack lol, retreated my british fleet, then looped it around to use in the DEI, only to have KB appear just then leaving me to frantically run away along with the dutch and american ships there. Waiting in darwin now while I hope he goes away to bother some other area. Dunno why, but KB and the mini KB's won't chase me to any major OZ ports. It's not like my wirraways could actually do anything to him, but he seems leary of tangling with ground based aircraft so far.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/8/2004 2:26:42 PM   
Delphinium

 

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Since 1.3, the Marines have twice fallen apart like a cheap suit, with no holds. This is on Historical/Surprise etc. Maybe we can all check this more?

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/8/2004 4:16:26 PM   
rtrapasso


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Wake Island held for me - first time this has happened. I had some subs help out - two transports sunk, one from subs. After messing up the Shokaku, my CVs rushed over to help out Wake - but the IJN had pulled out by the time they arrived.

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/8/2004 7:09:31 PM   
lyceum


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My pearl was quite extreme 4 BB's lost!! A few moderately damaged, a couple of light damages.

Wake is holding on my 3rd turn.

Oh I love this game so!!

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/8/2004 7:43:39 PM   
tanksone


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Playing historical with variable surprise against AI. Every BB with atleast 25 sys and 25 flood and the Pearl airfield got tagged, but the worst is that Kimmel decided to let the carriers have a holiday in port. Lex has 45 sys and Big E has 95 sys and 60 flood. gonna be a tuff first six months

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RE: Wow, best Pearl Harbor... sort of. - 11/9/2004 8:47:37 AM   
Cmdrcain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Wake falling shortly after turn one? 1 out of 6 times with me it falls, the rest I hold it... and then I use it.



With 1.21 restart Wake fell on turn 1

With 1.30 restart... Wake fell on turn 1..


Not after turn 1, but on turn 1... and those F4f's went bye..

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