Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: wodin

Talking of AI. I really want to play Lock and Load but no I'd never actually play it even if I bought it. I would love them to bring otu a PC version so I could finally play against an AI. Not as good I know as another human but I at leats get to enjoy a game or two. To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else?

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They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI.

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ORIGINAL: ioticus

Prestor John, I don't understand your point. I can't think of any computer wargames that can't be played hotseat or by email. Do you want an entire line of computer wargames with no AI? I really doubt there is a market for that, but there might be. The computer gaming market is different from the boardgame market. I think most people, like myself, play a computer game because they can't or don't want to play against another person.

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ORIGINAL: ravinhood

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They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI.

Well if someone is already making these games without an AI, what is your complaint? Seems you are getting what you want, now you want "more"? You want "all" games to be made without an AI? That doesn't really make sense. And perhaps you are on the wrong forum, maybe, you should be on the forum where those makers of these games without AI's are and tell them you want a more "convient" board game to computer game conversion of these games.

Like I said, I understand what you are wanting, I was that way when I first started playing computer wargames, but, have sense moved on and accepted the new form of wargaming, that comes not only with the game to be played solo, with someone else or against yourself, but, with an AI opponent as well.

Btw other than ASL for computer and Aide de Camp by HPS, what other games have a computer driven game map, counters and such, without an AI? I'd be interested to know.

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ORIGINAL: ggallagher

Actually, I think Decision Games, makers of board-based wargames, has already published a line of "AI-less" computer wargames, to very limited success. I belive their titles include War in Europe, a real monster if you recall.....

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ORIGINAL: Prester John

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ORIGINAL: wodin

Talking of AI. I really want to play Lock and Load but no I'd never actually play it even if I bought it. I would love them to bring otu a PC version so I could finally play against an AI. Not as good I know as another human but I at leats get to enjoy a game or two. To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else?

I don't know how many times I have to say this. Some people are just plain deaf. They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI. You'll be stunned I'm sure, but it's true. Now given all the hassles associated with playing those games, why is it so hard to ask for what is essentially a computerised play assistant. Can you imagine playing ASL (for example) without having to look for counters, or without having to check for LOS with a length of thread. The counters and markers will always be there, placed correctly, and at the right phase. LOS determinations will be simple, and DRM's will be exactly correct. And the whole process will be faster, even if you know the charts off by heart. Take into account that this will all be happening on a computer screen and not a billiard table size playing area and it is even better. Now please explain why that's selfish, or is it just that you don't give a damn for people who might want a better experience that that currently offered by board games. Well?
Of course I imagine this sort of gaming software would be expensive but somebody like you would probably be selfish enough to insist that it have an AI too, and that way nobody could afford it. Great. Just perfect for you and crappy for anybody else who likes the game.

As for Lock 'n Load, why not play the VASSAL version? It comes on a CD with the game, you just have to have internet access and an opponent lined up (Hint: check the LnL forum). Perhaps that is too much of a challenge but then for some people so is getting up in the morning. If you really want to play people there are ways. If you just want to win against a lame AI then go for it.

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ORIGINAL: Prester John

Actually no, I only want some good games. Games like ASL and World in Flames as I've already mentioned.

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ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

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ORIGINAL: ggallagher

Actually, I think Decision Games, makers of board-based wargames, has already published a line of "AI-less" computer wargames, to very limited success. I belive their titles include War in Europe, a real monster if you recall.....

I also remember when ADG's World in Flames was first touted for the PC, they published a survey to see whether people would buy the game without an AI. I believe the response was close to 50/50.

My response at the time, was that the graphics were so poor and far removed from the beauty of the board game, that either way, I wouldn't bother.

Yes, John I would love ASL in all its board glory of the PC that could play solitaire without an AI and all the inconveniencing of needing to remember the rules, check LOS and apply DRM's.

However, given the very adequate AI in Close Combat 5 Normandy, why would I now want that? The one thing the computer is giving us, that board gamers have always craved for and I've said it before in this thread, is an umpire. That umpire is also known as Fog of War and FOW is best applied via an AI.

An AI-less game could at best, offer hidden opponent views via self-hotseat. Either way, you'll still know where the enemy (your alter ego) is planning his schwerepunkt and its impossible to apply the tactics of bluff which only true FOW can allow.

That's why an AI-less ASL will not work as we wish. Too many scenarios rely on bluff and guile, unless a player is merely interested in playing in a "gaming laboratory" where these essential aspects of warfare are simply not possible in a 2 player intended solitaire setting. Try breaking out to the West in 1945 from Berlin as the Meuchenburg Division but knowing exactly which of the 4 bridges you're going to use. Are you as your Soviet alter ego going to ignore this inside info when placing your intendedly "hidden" units? A key feature of ASL is the "?" Concealed feature. How many solitarie players have used it? That's why "Solitaire ASL" was launched by Avalon Hill.

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IOW PC war gaming is finally reaching the point, where AI's can be sufficiently refined to allow things board gaming simply cannot. Board gaming retains only a few trumps over the PC at present and these too will slowly begin to be whittled away:

1. House rules.
2. Unlimited DYO.
3. Unlimited pre-game setup.

John Tiller as we speak is working with the US military in the field of AI which will have a commercial application in the future. SSG is already supplying a more than fine example of the AI art with Battles In Normandy. Panther are refining their own spin with their Highway to the Reich system and Koios in their own way are providing yet another competitive variant with their ancients title. Not to forget Battlefront with the Combat Mission franchise and Atomic's Close Combat series.

The march is on. Sid Meier did a fine job with Alpha Centauri and Gettysburg a few years ago now. It's the "Nintendo School" that is continuing the bad taste of the past decade of lameless efforts, with titles such as last month's shameful Rome Total Bore. They will soon become the exception.

Anyway, this is just my response to the debate in general - ie: that AI's offer no advantage over the past 50 years of board breeding. They do. And its now for the PC to begin addressing the remaining advantages board gaming holds, to really prove that the genre has come of age.

My .02
Adam.

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ORIGINAL: wodin

Thanks PrestorJohn,

Your post is rather rude. I do know of one game without an AI Laser Squad Nemesis. I want a game with all the things you want but with an AI aswell. Whats wrong with that? Some people believe it or not do not have an internet connection as they cant afford one. Also whats selfish anout your idea is that people who dont have an internet connection or want to play against another person for the reasons I mentioned in my last post need an AI. With your idea of no AI then these people will miss out on the game. This isnt fair.

Funny enough I know boardgames dont have an AI. Shock Horror. However that is the beauty of PC's. You can play games without actually needing someone else there and you dont need all the other negatives you mentioned aswell. READ MY POST.

As for beating a lame AI. I have Suqad Battles. I dont play against the AI. I PBEM. However Im pleased it has one. So OTHER people (who havent the confidence to play someone else or who dont have an internet connection) can at least enjoy the game.

Also I dont feel that time or effort is wasted in making an AI at all. Sorry. If a game is being made by a good company/developer and the system works and it looks OK then whats the problem. PC's are powerfull enough these days to have it all. You dont have to make a chose betwen one or the other.

I do know that Lock and Load can be played using Vasl. However I dont want that. I want a fully working PC title with an AI and all the rules. With the hope of expansions later. Not a boardgame with some kind of added etc that really wouldnt be of the standerd as a full priced game. I'd also want to play it when I wanted not when someone else wants to.

Also as for the getting out of bed etc tec. Im disabled and have severe motability problems. So you certainly put your foot in it there didnt you.

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ORIGINAL: wodin

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ORIGINAL: Prester John

Actually no, I only want some good games. Games like ASL and World in Flames as I've already mentioned.

Funny enough so would I. With an AI aswell. It can be done you know;)

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ORIGINAL: Prester John

What can I say, other than that you don't seem to understand the concept of playing a two player board game on the computer. You're saying that it won't work solitare. Who cares? The idea is not to play solitare but against other players...

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ORIGINAL: Prester John
Lastly, why do you need an AI as an umpire?

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ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

John you're all over the place in this thread. But I do understand the sole basis of your desire. You want all PC war games to only be playable by 2 humans. Well, you're 50 years behind the hobby old chap and well behind the needs of 21st century military educationalists.

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But let's stick to the hobby for a second. Right, take ASL. Roughly 60 geomorphic maps combinable in more configurations than I can count, to be able to track LOS between them, allow for variable force placement pre scenario and program 100 pages of double columned rules into code, also allowing for scenario designation of counters representing endless arrays of infantry and armor combinations; Ausf D/E, 4-3-6 MMC's depicting Volksgrenadier, Ostruppen, Penal Squads etc., on a whim. Hey, to programmers it's just 0's and 1's afterall?

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ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

John, war gaming has developed beyond the god's eye view, the all-knowing omnipotent command of the paper battlefield, where you can not only hold your opponent's OOB card but see the continuous, real time disposition of his forces. To continue with the ASL example, the whole concept of Concealment markers was to establish a quasi-AI where total control and awareness of forces was taken away from both players.

The question you seem to be asking is why do you need an umpire to play a board war game? Because in the 21st century, war gaming without historically plausible fog is no longer the "gaming of war". Just pure 1950's fantasy. Those who truly live and breathe board gaming loudly accalim the command experience that only an umpired game can provide. It took Panzer Campaigns to shake me loose of my tunnel vision 5 years ago. Funnily enough, the military training establishment is now thinking my way too.

Hence, though I sympathize with you and in no way condone poor AI's touted as anything other, you're going to find that your commercial desires have already fallen by the wayside as the retail gaming market becomes more and more driven by tailor-made military applications that will eventually spin off in titles such as HPS's Modern Airpower and Battlefront's Combat Command. Design houses such as Panther and SSG hopefully can garner some business from these military end users too. There'd rarely be a designer active today without one eye geared to military interest. And today's million dollar product goes by the name "AI".

Adam.

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ORIGINAL: Prester John

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ORIGINAL: wodin

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ORIGINAL: Prester John

Actually no, I only want some good games. Games like ASL and World in Flames as I've already mentioned.

Funny enough so would I. With an AI aswell. It can be done you know;)

Just how many sheep stations do you want to bet that the AI for WiF is a complete lemon? At this time I'm willing to put BiN's AI on a top mark but it still falls for tricks and doesn't use tactics that it isn't programmed for. How good do you think a WiF or ASL AI will be, considering their much greater complexity

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ORIGINAL: wodin

But you dont have to play against the AI do you? However its there for others who do. A conversion for ASL can be done no problem with todays PC power. It can have an AI aswell, you just wouldnt play against it, others would. I really dont believe you would get a better product if no AI was implimented into a game. It would just be finished quicker. And they would lose sales.

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ORIGINAL: wodin

HTTR as an example. Great game. Good AI. Couldnt have been a boardgame. Good example of using a computer to make a wargame which takes wargaming beyond the board and works. SO it can be done.

Your WiF and ASL when made into a PC game will be no better as a game with an AI or without, the only difference is that they would lose sales without. If the game is true to the boardgame then it wouldnt matter a jot if it had or didnt have an AI from your point of view. If the developer has the best intensions for the game then it will be true and have an AI. IF they havent it will be crap either way, with or without.

Take a look at CL.

What they want to achieve is possible. They are taking their time to get it right. The game would either come out earlier with no AI, or later with. It wouldnt be any better game without an AI.

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ORIGINAL: Prester John

But to say that AI's are being developed by those militaries just to game against, I don't believe you.

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ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

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ORIGINAL: Prester John

But to say that AI's are being developed by those militaries just to game against, I don't believe you.

"I currently have a contract with the Air Force to improve wargame AI..."

- Source: 'Warfare HQ Talks with John Tiller Once Again' www.warfarehq.com

No skin off my nose John

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Warfare HQ: In our last interview, we talked to you about how difficult it is to create a really competent AI opponent. Have there been any notable advances in this area since then? Where do you see AI going in the future?

John: There has been only marginal improvement. I currently have a contract with the Air Force to improve wargame AI, but it is a two-year effort and will not reach completion even in that time frame. The task is just too hard to make much progress in the short term. I will do additional work, but the results will take some time to achieve.

.....

Warfare HQ: Can you give us a glimpse of what you might have in store for the future?

John: My work for the Air Force is producing some interesting results. There will be AI improvements coming, but gradually over time as the work produces results. The commercial game series will continue and new campaigns and battles will be addressed. I'm hopeful that the work I am doing for the government through small-business contracts will produce some interesting commercial spin-offs.

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ORIGINAL: PJJ

Well, if wargames didn't have AI, I wouldn't play them. I don't have anyone to play Hotseat games with me, and PBEM games are quite tedious to play.

So I can't understand this "Jihad" against the AI. We're in the 21st century, and computer technology is developing rapidly. Why should the wargames be as simple as some ancient boardgames from the 1960's?

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ORIGINAL: Prester John


Hello. If they don't spend time programming an AI it will be cheaper to produce. If only 5% of the customer base want an AI but they expand the customer base by 50% due to spending time on better game play or selling at a cheaper price then they win. Simple economics.

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ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I would buy a Squad Leader or ASL board wargame to computer conversion WITH and AI in a New York second, but, would not buy one without it. I already have all the boards and stuff, why spend another $2000 getting the computer version without an AI? Oh that's right for convience, I keep forgetting that convience thingy. hehe

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ORIGINAL: LewFisher

The problem is economics. Even if A.I. is not included, computer wargames are for a very limited market. That's why BIN is $70.00 and WIE by Decision is about the same price. As others have said, ignore the A.I. and knock yourself out.

Lew Fisher

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ORIGINAL: wodin

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ORIGINAL: Prester John


Hello. If they don't spend time programming an AI it will be cheaper to produce. If only 5% of the customer base want an AI but they expand the customer base by 50% due to spending time on better game play or selling at a cheaper price then they win. Simple economics.

As you can see though its not 5%. You will find that your in the minority not the other way around. You havent played the right games. Why not put up a poll on this forum and see how many want games without an AI?

What do you say to all those who want to play WiF and an ASL conversion but need it with an AI? It just isnt fair.