Is ASW broken?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Is ASW broken?

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Is ASW broken? - 11/7/2004 1:16:52 AM

Freddy Fudpucker

Posts: 235
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Turned the game off in disgust (again!!!!).

Playing as Allies the game is over a year old into September '43 now. During this time I have not detected or sunk a single Jap (cpu) sub. It's now becoming a big problem as during the last couple of weeks they are sinking a ship every three to four turns. This turn two jap subs crippled one of my carriers.

The jap search planes (vals and emilys) locate (and usually attack) almost 100% of my subs EVERY TURN. I've had my subs attacked even when they are inside my own harbours! I fly ASW searches at 1000 and 2000 ft but have never spotted a single sub, they just pop up amongst my tfs every three to four turns unspotted. In the hex my CVE went down in outside Buna I had a total of about 22 planes flying ASW in range of this hex but as usual ...nothing!

What am I doing wrong? Surely ASW spotting shouldn't be so blatantly one sided?

_____________________________

Gentlemen, we're in the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun'. -Capt. E. Blackadder.

Post #: 1

RE: Is ASW broken? - 11/7/2004 5:01:14 AM

Blitzer

Posts: 99
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Chicago
Status: offline

Hi FF,

First of all, don't get discouraged. The game is not a perfect representation of the conflict, but oftentimes failed strategies mean you simply need to adjust your tactics. From your description, and without having seen firsthand the full situation you're facing, there are some modifications you can make to improve your play.

1.) If you are playing against the AI as I assume, you can bet that the computer will conregate its subs around Noumea, or possibly near other bases you have captured in more forward locations, eg Lunga or Gili Gili. Knowing this you can more effectively concentrate your counterefforts.

2.) Aircraft set to ASW are useful in identifying the positions of enemy subs, but far less so at killing them. A key here is to make sure you stagger the altitudes of the searches. Set some at 5-6K feet for example to do the spotting and others at lower levels to make attack runs. It helps if the aircraft attack from the same base as the spotting occurs. High experience also makes an enormous difference. Also check the payloads of the individual units to ensure that the most destructive bombs are employed in an attack role.

2.) Once you've discovered with your ac where the subs are lurking, send out large TFs of destroyers to finish them off. One or two will not suffice; you need to commit 10+ to the task to achieve an appreciable effect. The more the better, and this approach has the added benefit of raising the overall experience of the vessels involved.

3.) As for Japanese search aircraft, you must realize that they are supremely efficient, especially the Mavises and Emilies. These types boast outstanding range and can canvass almost the entire map. Friendly subs left too long in forward positions will certainly be attacked. You need to move them frequently or they will magnetize enemy ordnance.

4.) Finally, accept that the IJN subs will get lucky now and then, as they did historically in a devastating way off the southern Solomons.

With assiduous employment of Allied ASW resources, Japanese subs will quickly become only a minor nuisance to your plans, and their numbers in the ships sunk list will swell quite nicely.

Good luck.

(in reply to Freddy Fudpucker)

Post #: 2

RE: Is ASW broken? - 11/7/2004 5:08:05 AM

Shadow of the Condor

Posts: 394
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

originally posted by Freddy Fudpucker

Turned the game off in disgust (again!!!!).

Playing as Allies the game is over a year old into September '43 now. During this time I have not detected or sunk a single Jap (cpu) sub. It's now becoming a big problem as during the last couple of weeks they are sinking a ship every three to four turns. This turn two jap subs crippled one of my carriers.

The jap search planes (vals and emilys) locate (and usually attack) almost 100% of my subs EVERY TURN. I've had my subs attacked even when they are inside my own harbours! I fly ASW searches at 1000 and 2000 ft but have never spotted a single sub, they just pop up amongst my tfs every three to four turns unspotted. In the hex my CVE went down in outside Buna I had a total of about 22 planes flying ASW in range of this hex but as usual ...nothing!

What am I doing wrong? Surely ASW spotting shouldn't be so blatantly one sided?

A few things that work for me, perhaps they can be of help...

First, the only plane I expect any serious ASW effort out of is the PBY. With its slow cruising speed, it's a good candidate for ASW duty. I'll fly medium bombers on ASW if they need training but anything they happen to find is icing on the cake. And even the PBYs won't spot every sub. I'll fly as low as 100 feet on occasion, but mostly at 1000 feet and 50% effort - they'll last almost indefinitely like that.

But if I have serious ASW to do (as in my game with tabpub) I'll put together dedicated ASW TFs. In the early stages of the conflict (May42 - Nov 42) all I can use are the SCs to guard my ports. They're cheap at 1 VP each, and massing them in a TF gives each one a chance at detecting and firing on the sub. They aren't the best option, but even they are (IMHO) about 5 to 10 times better than airborne ASW.

Later in the period, when the Fletcher class destroyers are available they become my primary ASW weapon. With their high ASW value (8) and the Mk 9 depth charges they are lethal against subs. I have eight of them patrolling the lanes between Wunpuko and Irau and they have taken three subs in four days. Some players may use the Fletchers for carrier escort or surface combat escorts (with their armor it's a tempting proposition) but I'll keep at least one dedicated TF of Fletchers to hunt subs.

As to keeping your subs from being spotted try to stay in deep water hexes and as far away from land as possible. Keep track of sightings during the combat replay and plot where the computer's convoys are spotted. You can usually find a deep water hex on one of the routes. When I find one, I park the sub there and it doesn't move. I find the sub is easier to detect if it's running back and forth chasing after contacts (which it will surely do if you leave it on computer control).

Hope that helps.

< Message edited by Shadow of the Condor -- 11/6/2004 9:12:56 PM >

(in reply to Freddy Fudpucker)

Post #: 3

RE: Is ASW broken? - 11/7/2004 7:40:38 PM

Freddy Fudpucker

Posts: 235
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Thanks for the replies guys but nothing seems to be helping. I have played about ten more turns and lost 5 dds to jap subs in this time. My ASW tfs do nothing (mostly 6 to 8 ships mix of DDs and SCs) and I still have not spotted a single sub and haven't all game. My losses are right outside my own bases around Buna, Gili Gili and Finschaffen.

Something else inexplicable has happened. My invasion TF to gasmata took three days to get from the tip of NG nr Gili Gili to Gasmata running the jap bombing gauntlet ( lost four ships: one sunk, three crippled). They arrived at gasmata unloaded about 2k troops (only 300 or so combat troops) then I get the message unable to unload at this time in this hex and they retreated in one night what it took three days to move: This is simply not possible

. No jap tf was spotted and my invasion tf escort includes 3 CAs and 7 DDs. They should not retreat!!!!

I replayed the turn four times. I found that my invasion fleet, on arrival at Gasmata, had defaulted its destination hex back to cairns and this is why it left. I altered the DH back to Gasmata and at last it stayed put. It got hammered by lba so I replayed it again with the 4 cv's covering the invasion set to cap the invasion fleet, and this time instead the lba hammered my CV tf: if ever irrevocable proof was needed that the AI cheats, well here it is!

. I know that AI cheats are an essential part of game balancing, but this to me is outrageous!!! If a game is not fun its not worth playing and all I'm doing at the moment all that I'm doing is losing my temper.

Maybe I'm just a sore loser and I'm absolutley **** at this game; but I'm not having fun playing it, and no fun = no point.

Thanks for all your advice guys but UV is now uninstalled from my computer. Thanks anyway.

< Message edited by Freddy Fudpucker -- 11/7/2004 6:57:50 PM >

_____________________________

Gentlemen, we're in the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun'. -Capt. E. Blackadder.

(in reply to Shadow of the Condor)

Post #: 4

RE: Is ASW broken? - 11/8/2004 5:54:47 AM

CMDRMCTOAST

Posts: 673
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline

1 point about your invading task force is the commander in charge of
your force has to have enough balls to stay put under the intense air
cover.
I would not have sent transports to gasmata with Rabaul's or kavieng's heavy
aircover, better to run fast transports from Buna or even Gilli Gilli than
the slower transports especially in intense aircover.
You also should have started an intense bombing campaign of Rabaul
and then sent in some Bombardment forces followed up with a large airfield
strike from your carriers, once the aircraft are sufficently suppressed and or
damaged then bring in the transports.
Asw task forces take time to train up and you do lose ships, the DD'S
with two types of depth charges work the best and the SC'S won't work
until there experiance levels are built up, sending the SC'S out with transports
on routine convoys for weeks on end will bring there levels up.
There are so many reasons why things don't go exactly the way we want them
to but there are a lot of things we don't take into consideration either,
Setting the wrong task force commander in a hairy situation caused the transports
to run for the hills but also sending them in with the IJN'S experianced forces still
at Rabaul and not properly suppressed is suicide and you should lose some of your
force there, they ran cause they were rightfully scared. ( assuming Rabaul was the
culprit here)
Also if you were into the game for a period of time then you should have a lot of
heavies and those should be used in large numbers to work on the airfields.
The game is less frustrating if you play a PBEM player, but then you may have
jap troops in Townsville or even Noumea after a months time as was the case
with my game I just lost a week ago, I took a gambit and lost that quickly.
or the game right after that were my apponant lost his whole carrier force in a weeks
time.
sometimes we make huge mistakes and it costs a lot but at least we are not dealing
with real lives as it is a game and we need to realise this, frustrating as it is.
Try a PBEM player when you settle down I think you will enjoy the game much better as
his mistakes are far more satisfying to you than an AI'S edge.

_____________________________

The essence of military genius is to bring under
consideration all of the tendencies of the mind
and soul in combination towards the business of
war..... Karl von Clausewitz

(in reply to Freddy Fudpucker)

Post #: 5

RE: Is ASW broken? - 11/8/2004 7:30:34 AM

ritterkruz

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/28/2004
From: Canada's Pacific Island.
Status: offline

As I await CMDRMCTOAST's next move in our PBEM game I'll offer my observations about your rotten luck with ASW and game balance. My opponent's US subs have been a real pain, and I've written him rude comments about his luck. Playing against AI can be definatly frustrating, but at least the game moves as fast as you want it to. Playing as the IJN is better in the longer campaigns, as your navy's experience advantage allows you more time to learn the ropes of the game. You may well beat the US according to the sudden victory conditions, too- before the enormous material advantage of US production can grind you down... I made a post here some time back regarding AI cheating and got some excellent advise, and so I stayed with the game, enjoying it ever since. Also, as you mentioned, being able to replay "bad" moves is really helpful vs AI, and if after several replays you still can't find a bearable result, accept it as nature's way of saying that that particular move was Bad

- and live (or die) with it. PBEM is great, if slow, and luck still matters (will my search plane see their CV task force before their's finds mine?)- and, like "real" history, you can't replay the move... but at least it's simpler than WitP!

(in reply to CMDRMCTOAST)

Post #: 6

RE: Is ASW broken? - 11/9/2004 12:02:09 AM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

First of all, I never play the AI, but we all know that the AI cheats. This was designed into the game to make up for its other defects. I suspect this is why you are having little success with you ASW. My comments are meant really for email, where I find that competent ASW tactics work well and have not experience your problems.

My first advice is to play a human. There are plenty of opponents out there and you will just pick up bad habits playing against the AI.

As for your attack problem at Gasmata. It sounds as if your TF commander is aborting because you are trying to invade with little or no air protection. That is, it seems that the enemy has air superiority. When that is the case, you may be prevented from unloading. This is also true if there are emeny surface ships prowling about. Think about it. Generally, when under constant air attacks-unloading stops as your men doing the unloading are looking for slit trenches. This happened in real life as well. This a game design and when I have experienced it myself, it has not been for no reason. No Allied TF commander is gonna commit suicide. Do you have CAP over your invading TF? Try putting some over it. I bet it will unload then.

As for ASW. Everybody has their theories. As the Allies, I find the best ASW is masses of heavy bombers assigned to ASW patrol. They have the longest range and will keep subs out of any port area. If you have a problem port. Move five or six squadrons of heavies there-set them between 1000-5000 ft. They will clean up the subs in a week or two. If your heavies are busy. Use mediums and catalinas. SBD and Avengers work fine two but have limited range. In spite of what you hear here, the type of bomber is not as imortant as experience and morale. High experience aircraft will find subs and bomb them. In fact, I prefer planes for ASW over ships and have had no trouble getting sucess out of that.

As the Japanese, Bettys and Nells are great sub killers. Mass them in a problem port, set them to about 50% ASW so they will not tire and have a lot of operational losses and they will clear out enemy subs to about 8 to 10 hexes from the base.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to ritterkruz)

Post #: 7

RE: Is ASW broken? - 11/29/2004 3:47:33 PM

Freddy Fudpucker

Posts: 235
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Well, thanks for all the help guys and your patience with me too.

After mellowing out some I re-installed and finished the last two and a half months of the game. I never did get the hang of ASW. Jap subs continued to sink my ships well within my own defensive perimeter including another two dd's of my ASW tfs and without me detecting any of them.

Oh well. I have now purchased WitP and can now look forward to the AI handing me my ass on a plate on a much grander scale

.

_____________________________

Gentlemen, we're in the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun'. -Capt. E. Blackadder.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 8

RE: Is ASW broken? - 12/1/2004 12:19:31 AM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Don't worry, in WitP you'll wonder how any subs survive

(in reply to Freddy Fudpucker)

Post #: 9

RE: Is ASW broken? - 12/1/2004 6:45:53 AM

CMDRMCTOAST

Posts: 673
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline

Plus there is way to much to do I don't even bother with the subs anymore
I set some asw planes around the globe and forget it...

_____________________________

The essence of military genius is to bring under
consideration all of the tendencies of the mind
and soul in combination towards the business of
war..... Karl von Clausewitz

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)

Post #: 10

RE: Is ASW broken? - 12/1/2004 7:59:35 AM

Blitzer

Posts: 99
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Chicago
Status: offline

Yes WitP is a different species with respect to sub warfare. It needs a serious fix. IJN subs are doomed at every turn.

On the other hand, I get the impression that very few players have advanced to late-war situations, when experience for both USN subs and IJN ASW would naturally have improved - though the latter much less so than the former. Nevertheless, thoughtful Japanese players would have done well by 1944 to cultivate effective hunter/killer groups, especially along major convoy routes from the DEI to the Home Islands.

Still, ASW NEEDS TO BE FIXED!!!!

(in reply to CMDRMCTOAST)

Post #: 11

RE: Is ASW broken? - 12/1/2004 3:40:46 PM

Freddy Fudpucker

Posts: 235
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blitzer

Yes WitP is a different species with respect to sub warfare. It needs a serious fix. IJN subs are doomed at every turn.

The problem must be serious. Mid-Jan 1943 and even I've sunk two jap subs. Huzzah!!!!!!

_____________________________

Gentlemen, we're in the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun'. -Capt. E. Blackadder.

(in reply to Blitzer)

Post #: 12

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Is ASW broken?