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Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 3:46:43 PM   
Admiral Scott


Posts: 625
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		Playing as the allies, do I have to concern myself with moving oil to heavy industry centers?
Other than salvaging oil from DEI's, are there bases that need oil removed, and bases that need oil as the allies?
Post #: 1
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 3:56:26 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		There was a long thread on this recently entitled Oil for Oz.

Australia needs oil. Send it there. Everywhere else will take care of itself. Sydney and the Southern Australia HI centers are the best place to send it.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


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Post #: 2
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 4:00:46 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		India needs oil also, though the term "need" is subjective. The allies dont actually need anything, for supplies the arrival points in US and India take care of that, and they have a huge surplus of HI stored before the war starts. A good portion of their air reinforcements arrive via none production, as well as manpower, units and armament ect.

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Post #: 3
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 4:47:48 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		The reason that it is preferable to send oil to Oz than India, is because if you send it to the AC factories in Oz, you get a direct return by forcing the AC factories to produce faster (otherwise, their only oil is trickling in from Brisbane).

India is lacking in oil, and could certainly use it to power it's HI, but again, since HI is simply a "pool" of points, it doesn't matter whether you're making up the deficit in Oz or India (and again, any extra oil in Oz will go towards increasing your AC production).

Frankly, I personally don't think it's worth the effort. You can say, "It just helps me to power my HI, so I might as well." True. But there is also the consideration that you're risking ships (esp escorts) and VPs as you transit the oil. If you can move everything safely, sure, knock yourself out. But frankly, I don't think it's worth risking TKs and their escorts (and the VPs involved), over something that truely -is- just a drop in the bucket of Allied production.

My 2 pfennigs.

-F-

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Post #: 4
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 4:55:47 PM   
Admiral Scott


Posts: 625
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		Thats true, but youre also denying that oil to the enemy.
But that might be a drop in the bucket as well.

By the way, whats more valuable, fuel or oil?
I remove fuel first then oil from DEI. Should I reverse this, or am I correct in doing so?

< Message edited by Admiral Scott -- 11/11/2004 9:58:45 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:05:54 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline 		As Oil produces fuel, it seems to be preferable to ship the Oil.

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Post #: 6
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:10:48 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		a good point. Singapore's massive fuel stocks make a very convienient fuel stop for the victorious Combined Fleet and a sizable reserve that will last quite a long time

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Post #: 7
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:13:39 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline 		Considering Singapore, it would be a nice move... However you'ld need some luck to avoid Japanese bombers if you don't want to loose the tankers involved

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Post #: 8
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:17:02 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		If you send US oil to Sydney via Suva you should not be losing any ships. The long trip also serves as a shake down cruise for your escorts.

Tankers will not have the range to reach Austrailia so they must be paired with AKs. Since there are plenty of resources there already I would load these with supplies or troops (including air units). You may also want to load fuel on AKs, AOs and extra tankers.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


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Post #: 9
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:18:10 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

a good point. Singapore's massive fuel stocks make a very convienient fuel stop for the victorious Combined Fleet and a sizable reserve that will last quite a long time


I am trying to use up the fuel by using Singapore as a sub base and constanly topping off the subs there.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 10
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:22:04 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		lol.....did the same in my current game. Alas, my subs are not making much of a dent.

the AI may not be Patton, but it did a good job suprising my large tanker fleet at Palembang. 16 TK's now sunk, all but wiping out the existing UK fleet avail after scrounging the ports of India and Java. Fortunately just got 96 TK's as a reinforcement in San Fran! Course they are half a world away right now. Dont think the AI is going to give me the time to make another attempt.

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Post #: 11
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:28:10 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		Try sending the Dutch PTs to Singapore. Mine are wreaking havok at the base one hex away.

Between subs, PTs, and airpower I have sunk over 100 transports by 2-10-42.

If the Dutch were this good in real life these deserve a lot more credit then they have recieved.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 12
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:29:04 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Someone else came up with this reasoning, but I'll repeat it here.

Oz doesn't produce enough supply or fuel on its own to support offensives. So, you need to ship in supply and fuel from US. However, if you ship oil, then the HI in Oz will produce supply AND Fuel. So, it's much more efficient to ship oil to Oz than it is to just ship in fuel.

I ship it all in. Supply, fuel and oil. You're bringing in 100 ship task forces anyway. Why not have 5 or 6 tankers full of oil too?

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 13
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:31:25 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Hopefully not too much, otherwise i think we'd be looking at a gamey and unhistorical situaiton. I havn't done it enough to make a comment but i had assumed that the captured oil would just make Oz a little better at being self sufficient. She should still be dependant on the US for the supplies and fuel necessary to support a combined offensive

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Post #: 14
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:34:34 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		You might want to use all of those Brit tankers and AKs at Karachi to move some fuel to Oz. I set mine to go to a point as far west of the DEI as possible then return to an OZ base. This avoids Jap air power in the DEI. Besides, how much fuel does the Brit fleet really need since it will most likely just stay in port?

I just sent a Brit CV and CVL to OZ via the same route hoping to pair them up with my CVs.

BTW: Do we all get a slice for helping Nikademus get to 5,000?

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to Bradley7735)
Post #: 15
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:37:03 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		huh?

I don't understand. In my example, I would form a task force from the US, include 60 AK's and 30 TK's. But, I'd load 5 or 6 of the TK's with Oil, not Fuel. I'd send all of that to Sydney. The oil will only produce supply and fuel equal to Oz's HI. and it takes a little time.

Is there something gamey with this?

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 16
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:39:28 PM   
KPAX


Posts: 735
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Someone else came up with this reasoning, but I'll repeat it here.

Oz doesn't produce enough supply or fuel on its own to support offensives. So, you need to ship in supply and fuel from US. However, if you ship oil, then the HI in Oz will produce supply AND Fuel. So, it's much more efficient to ship oil to Oz than it is to just ship in fuel.

I ship it all in. Supply, fuel and oil. You're bringing in 100 ship task forces anyway. Why not have 5 or 6 tankers full of oil too?


Bradley,

I would agree. You are shipping airplanes, troops, and other ships to OZ from the W Coast, why not have several TKs fuel of Oil to fuel the HI in Oz ?

_____________________________

"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)



Thanks !!

KPAX

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Post #: 17
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 5:43:37 PM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

huh?

I don't understand. In my example, I would form a task force from the US, include 60 AK's and 30 TK's. But, I'd load 5 or 6 of the TK's with Oil, not Fuel. I'd send all of that to Sydney. The oil will only produce supply and fuel equal to Oz's HI. and it takes a little time.

Is there something gamey with this?


Not really. Everything you do in this game is a trade-off. I ship oil as well when my tankers aren't shipping fuel all over the damn ocean.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

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Post #: 18
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:03:21 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		I'd consider it gamey only if the tactic results in Oz producing all or even most of the supplies needed by the Allies to conduct offensive ops from there. The whole reason for the Oz-USN "lifeline" and the Japanese concern over it was the ability (or lack thereof) of transforming Oz into a platform from which the US could launch a counteroffensive.

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Post #: 19
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:04:57 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658


BTW: Do we all get a slice for helping Nikademus get to 5,000?


nope! as the Seagulls would say.... MINE!

MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE!

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 11/11/2004 4:05:03 PM >

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Post #: 20
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:09:32 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin


Not really. Everything you do in this game is a trade-off. I ship oil as well when my tankers aren't shipping fuel all over the damn ocean.


I just set up a CS from san fran to Suva with 30 tankers. 540000 fuel points per trip. its almost obscene (i'd have done it CS to Sydney but unfort the auto pathing still takes the convoy into attack range of the Outer Defense Perimeter

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Post #: 21
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:10:47 PM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
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From: That from which there is no escape.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I'd consider it gamey only if the tactic results in Oz producing all or even most of the supplies needed by the Allies to conduct offensive ops from there. The whole reason for the Oz-USN "lifeline" and the Japanese concern over it was the ability (or lack thereof) of transforming Oz into a platform from which the US could launch a counteroffensive.


Well, considering you can burn through a 700k supply shipment for the whole of Oz in something like 2-5 months by 8/42 (depending upon what you bring over and how intensively you use it and factoring both the Brisbane/Sydney/Melbourne/Perth/Broome/Darwin and the Brisbane/Townsville/Cooktown/Moresby sub-runs), keeping Oz HI running full tilt just allows for coasting until the next big convoy.

_____________________________

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Post #: 22
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:12:56 PM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
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From: That from which there is no escape.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin


Not really. Everything you do in this game is a trade-off. I ship oil as well when my tankers aren't shipping fuel all over the damn ocean.


I just set up a CS from san fran to Suva with 30 tankers. 540000 fuel points per trip. its almost obscene (i'd have done it CS to Sydney but unfort the auto pathing still takes the convoy into attack range of the Outer Defense Perimeter


That's kind of what I do, too. San Fran/Pearl/Suva/Wellington/Brisbane all on slightly diminishing returns, with sub-runs to Noumea and Canton.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

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Post #: 23
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:13:46 PM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		Oh, good Lord! We even got a Finding Nemo reference.

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I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

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Post #: 24
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:17:22 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		true. My understanding of Oz's industrial representation was that it would, assuming adequate numbers of resource and oil, be able to produce enough supply to keep it's own forces in the black but additional ops, units etc would require support from the US.

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Post #: 25
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:21:30 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

Oh, good Lord! We even got a Finding Nemo reference.


MINE?

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Post #: 26
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:32:06 PM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

Oh, good Lord! We even got a Finding Nemo reference.


MINE?


That's the best part of the film.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

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Post #: 27
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 6:36:46 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		maybe we should replace the explosion soundbit when a ship strikes a mine with that soundbit from Nemo.

'PG Toshi Maru strikes Type 1 mine'
(MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE!)

_____________________________


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Post #: 28
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 8:15:37 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

true. My understanding of Oz's industrial representation was that it would, assuming adequate numbers of resource and oil, be able to produce enough supply to keep it's own forces in the black but additional ops, units etc would require support from the US.


Oz has PLENTY of resources. Even without oil, those resources produce 1 supply (per resource) per turn. Supply isn't really an issue in Oz (or shouldn't ever be).

What the oil does :
1. Produce additional Heavy Industry points when you actually dump oil on the bases w/ Heavy Industry.
2. Proudce 1 fuel and 1 supply when the Heavy Industry runs.
3. Speeds up the process at your Aircraft Prodcution facililties (because otherwise it has to wait on the trickle of oil from Brisbane).

However :
1. You're already producing gobs of HI points from the US. Sure more is better. But if you never touch the HI anywhere, you're going to be drowning Japan (production wise) by 1943 anyways. Fueling the HI in Oz, just means you're drowing Japan sooner.
2. Extra fuel and supply. Remember you've already got lots of supply just beacuse the Resource hexes produce supply (even if you never oil the HI). You're going to have plenty of supply by March, trust me. Extra fuel is always nice. But let's face it, it's the US CVs that are sucking up all the fuel. The CAs of the RAN and RNZN don't need -that- much fuel. I say, make the US bring it's own fuel. It's not any harder for the US to bring Fuel to Oz, as it is to ship oil to Oz. And if you just bring the Fuel (which is what you -really- want anways), you skip the hassel of having to distribute the oil to the 12 cities with HI.
3. The real reason to bring oil to Oz then, falls back to fueling the HI at the aircraft plants. But they're producing Wirraways and Beuforts, and who cares about them? (ok, the Beforts don't suck, but who really cares if you produced 20 Throwaways or 60 in a month?).

-F-

_____________________________

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Post #: 29
RE: Allied Oil - 11/11/2004 8:18:16 PM   
strawbuk


Posts: 289
Joined: 4/30/2004
From: London via Glos
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

maybe we should replace the explosion soundbit when a ship strikes a mine with that soundbit from Nemo.

'PG Toshi Maru strikes Type 1 mine'
(MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE!)


'yer rats with wings..'

what aircraft would we apply that too?

(ooh I made hero without a single, useful sensible post)

_____________________________



Twinkle twinkle PBY
Seeking Kido Bu-tai
Flying o' the sea so high
An ill-omen in the sky
Twinkle twinkle PBY
Pointing out who's next to fry

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 30
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