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Operation Hangover

 
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Operation Hangover - 11/9/2004 11:49:27 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/10/42

Surface Combat

Bombardments

Naval bombardment of Chandpur, at 30,25 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

41 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CL Abukuma
CL Natori
CL Nagara, Shell hits 1
CA Mogami
CA Ashigara
CA Haguro, Shell hits 4
CA Chokai
BB Hyuga
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Fuso
BB Nagato, Shell hits 1


Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported

Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 2
Port hits 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Invasions

TF 75 encounters mine field at Chandpur (30,25)

TF 75 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese Ships
MSW Toroshima Maru
MSW Togo Maru
MSW Takashima Maru
PC Ch 10
PC Shonan Maru #7
PC Ch 8
PG Myoken Maru
PG Kyo Maru #8

Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 75
685 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CA Tone, Shell hits 2
DD Kuri, Shell hits 2
DD Wakatake, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Nachisan Maru
DD Sanae, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kamo
AP Kagi Maru, Shell hits 1
PG Kure Maru #5
AP Kasuga Maru #2, Shell hits 2, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
1570 casualties reported
Guns lost 14

Allied ground losses:
39 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 75 encounters mine field at Chandpur (30,25)

TF 75 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese Ships
MSW Toroshima Maru
MSW Togo Maru
MSW Takashima Maru
PC Ch 10
PC Ch 8
PC Shonan Maru #7
PG Myoken Maru
PG Magan Maru
DD Kuri
DD Kamo
DD Wakatake, on fire, heavy damage

Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 75
108 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese ground losses:
175 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 78 encounters mine field at Chandpur (30,25)

TF 78 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese Ships
MSW Toshi Maru #2
MSW Shanan Maru #16
MSW Ranzan Maru
PC Ch 12
PC Ch 11
PC Ch 1
PG Shinko Maru #2
PG Chokai Maru
PC Ch 3
PG Tosho Maru
DD Yakaze
DD Hakaze

Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 78
497 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Hakaze
AP Kakyu Maru
DD Mochizuki
AP Hokusho Maru, Shell hits 8, on fire
CL Yura, Shell hits 7
DD Yuzuki

Japanese ground losses:
2103 casualties reported
Guns lost 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 96 encounters mine field at Akyab (30,29)

TF 96 troops unloading over beach at Akyab, 30,29

Japanese Ships
MSW Musashi Maru
PG Nanpo Maru
DD Amagiri

Coastal Guns at Akyab, 30,29, firing at TF 96
33 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
ML Sokuten

Japanese ground losses:
396 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Night Air attack on Sian , at 47,29

Allied aircraft
IL-4c x 3

No Allied losses

Airbase hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x IL-4c bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kungchang , at 46,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48 Lily x 6
Ki-49 Helen x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48 Lily: 1 damaged

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 10000 feet
15 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Calcutta , at 29,23

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 22

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 3
Blenheim IF x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Vildebeest IV: 9 destroyed, 2 damaged
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 4 destroyed, 8 damaged
G3M Nell: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
81 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 6

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Port Moresby , at 53,91

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 29

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk I: 2 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 30,26 - Allied bombers had a really bad day today

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 73

Allied aircraft
Swordfish x 2
Mohawk IV x 2
Beaufort V-IX x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish: 5 destroyed
Mohawk IV: 5 destroyed
Beaufort V-IX: 11 destroyed, 1 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 30,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 73

Allied aircraft
Vildebeest IV x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Vildebeest IV: 12 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Akyab at 30,29

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 6

Allied aircraft
Beaufort V-IX x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort V-IX: 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Usugumo
DD Isonami
DD Yukikaze

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 1000 feet
4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 1000 feet
4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 30,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 73

Allied aircraft
Swordfish x 9
Wirraway x 6
Mohawk IV x 12
Buffalo I x 9
Vildebeest IV x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish: 22 destroyed
Wirraway: 17 destroyed, 1 damaged
Mohawk IV: 30 destroyed
Buffalo I: 20 destroyed, 1 damaged
Vildebeest IV: 15 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
PG Takunan Maru #8
PT Gyoraitei #2
PG Tamo Maru #6

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Vildebeest IV bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Vildebeest IV bombing at 2000 feet
1 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Akyab at 30,29

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 6

Allied aircraft
Beaufort V-IX x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort V-IX: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Tatsuta
DD Amagiri
ML Nasami

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 1000 feet
4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 1000 feet
4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,26 - Allied destroyers at Chandpur makes a run for it!

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 54
D3A Val x 56
B5N Kate x 71

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 damaged
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 8 damaged

Allied Ships - they all loose!
DD Ellet, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage *sinks*
DD Dunlap, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage *sinks*
DD Paul Jones, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage *sinks*
DD Alden, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage *sinks*
DD Tjerk Hiddes, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage *sinks*

Aircraft Attacking:
Kates launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Vals bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 30,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 67

Allied aircraft
Beaufort V-IX x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort V-IX: 31 destroyed, 4 damaged - not a single bomber got through the KB's CAP today!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at 29,33

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 69881 troops, 806 guns, 32 vehicles

Defending force 42682 troops, 360 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
98 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lunga

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 781 troops, 3 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 5237 troops, 59 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Akyab

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4202 troops, 35 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 12474 troops, 200 guns, 0 vehicles - tomorrow we attack!

Japanese ground losses:
14 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation Report

Me and Al discuessed night bombing today - it's not easy to agree on anything here since it's often the only way the weaker
side can strike back. Results are overkill though, so we'll see what we end up with.

I'm still experiencing crashes when night fighters tries to intercept bombers. Puter froze up today and I had to kill the program.
Also had a CTD after I had examined my units and made minor changes for an hour
Frag wasn't able to turn Allied sub doctrine off either...the new patch hasn't really fixed that many of our issues.

Well, back to the war!

Seems like I've managed to get rid of Murphy, hopefully I shook him off over Al's HQ in India
2 divisions and an engineer regiment landed at Chandpur, over 60000 men have already been landed. There were casualties, but nothing
serious. My bombardment groups gave the defenders another round of 14" shells and there was a CA in each of the invasion groups that returned fire.
Wobbly said Chandpur was a tough nut...hm, I'm unsure about how well my 2 divisions will handle an armoured division and fortifications.
Got a lot of firepower coming in though!

The invasion of Akyab was also a success, and I now got 12000 men ready to attack.

The Allied bombers that counterattacked met a formidable wall of Zeros! The crack pilots of the Kido Butai shot down every single one of them
before they reached my ships. In total more than 70 ac were destroyed today. Jap losses amounted to 13 ac.

As a bonus, 5 Allied destroyers made a run for it - and got caught by a huge strike from the KB that sank every single one of them
Tomorrow I'm sending a battlegroup back to Diamond Harbour, perhaps more Allied ships tries to run for it.

I've also ordered long range transport ac to drop a small SNLF detachment over a northern base in India.
There's a big chance that Wobbly got a unit here, but the troops are all voluenteers! If successfull, India will be cut of from China and Burma as soon as Akyab falls!

Situation Map: Operation Hangover is a go!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 211
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/10/2004 12:18:22 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		How are your ops points on KB holding up.

Night bombing is a pain but in all my games both sides use it so its hard to argue.

When you get the interceptor bug at night I ALT TAB once away from WITP and then back again and I have the opportunity to end the A2A section.

May work for you

(I am of the opinion that WITP underestimates the allied reaction to an IJN invasion of India I think troops from Syria/Ethiopia etc would be deployed I actually think there is more justification for accelerated deployment of 4th/5th Indian or a few South African Bdes or any of the other Indian Army formations in ME at this point. (Also if IJA had invaded India wouldnt 6th or 7th Aus that are in ships to Java Sumatra have diverted to India but thats a subject for another thread ...sorry to hijack carry on)


Andy

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 212
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/10/2004 8:28:25 AM   
Smiffus64

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 7/30/2004
From: Delft, the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Exiting stuff this, great reading.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 213
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/10/2004 11:28:06 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Thx Smiffus!

The KB still got supplies left for almost 2000 strikes Andy. Should be sufficient!

The question whether India would have managed to raise another Army if the Japs invaded is a 'what if question' that there is no
answer to. India wanted independence, would the British grant them this to fight the Japs? What quality would the new divisions really have?
If you wish add units, that's what the editor is for - I'm in India mainly because it's lightly defended, and as Wobbly so truthfully stated: the British AF of early 1942 sux!-)

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/11/42

Surface Combat

Bombardments

Naval bombardment of Chandpur, at 30,25 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

32 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CL Oi, Shell hits 6, on fire
CL Kuma
CA Kumano
CA Mikuma
CA Maya
CA Atago
CA Takao
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
BB Haruna
BB Kongo, Shell hits 4

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 6
Port hits 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Lunga, at 67,97

Allied Ships
CL Concord
CL Detroit
CL Adelaide
CL Perth
CL Leander
CA Canberra

Japanese ground losses:
129 casualties reported

Runway hits 7
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Diamond Harbor, at 28,23

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Abukuma
CL Natori
CL Nagara
CA Mogami
CA Ashigara
CA Haguro
CA Chokai
BB Hyuga
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Fuso
BB Nagato

Allied ground losses:
66 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 18
Port hits 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Invasions

TF 73 encounters mine field at Chandpur (30,25)

TF 73 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese Ships
MSW Choun Maru #18
MSW Banshu Maru #52
MSW Banshu Maru #18
PC Ch 32
PC Ch 16
PG Busho Maru
PG Aso Maru

Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 73
165 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Tomozuru
AP Taganoura Maru, Shell hits 1
DD Chidori
DD Manazuru, Shell hits 3
AP Ryugi Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
846 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 78 encounters mine field at Chandpur (30,25)

TF 78 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese Ships
MSW Toshi Maru #2
MSW Shanan Maru #16
MSW Ranzan Maru
PC Ch 12
PC Ch 11
PG Tosho Maru
PG Shinko Maru #2
PG Nikkai Maru
PG Chokai Maru
AP Rozan Maru, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
PC Ch 3
PC Ch 1
DD Yuzuki

Japanese ground losses:
42 casualties reported

Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 78
74 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CL Yura

Japanese ground losses:
68 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 96 encounters mine field at Akyab (30,29)

TF 96 troops unloading over beach at Akyab, 30,29

Japanese Ships
MSW Musashi Maru
PG Shosei Maru
PG Shinko Maru #5
PG Nanpo Maru
DD Mikazuki

Coastal Guns at Akyab, 30,29, firing at TF 96
84 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese ground losses:
353 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 50
TF 50 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 73
TF 73 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

119 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
AP Nihonkai Maru

Japanese ground losses:
186 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 78
TF 78 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

166 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese ground losses:
86 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 96 encounters mine field at Akyab (30,29)

TF 96 troops unloading over beach at Akyab, 30,29

Japanese Ships
MSW Musashi Maru
DD Amagiri
PG Shosei Maru
PG Shinko Maru #5
PG Nanpo Maru

Coastal Guns at Akyab, 30,29, firing at TF 96
19 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese ground losses:
202 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Day Air attack on Lae , at 54,87

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 4 - All my ac were off to bomb PB!

Allied aircraft
Beaufort V-IX x 11
P-40E Warhawk x 28
B-17E Fortress x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
Ki-49 Helen: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort V-IX: 1 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
91 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 6000 feet
11 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Port Moresby , at 53,91

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 29
Ki-49 Helen x 16

Allied aircraft
no flights - All Allied ac were off to bomb Lae

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed

Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 6

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 93rd Chinese Division, at 29,33

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 7
Ki-21 Sally x 54

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 2 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied ground losses:
61 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
27 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 27th Australian Brigade, at 29,33

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 89

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 5 damaged

Allied ground losses:
65 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Aircraft Attacking:
29 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
15 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
20 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
12 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 23rd Mixed Brigade, at 30,29

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 7

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 destroyed, 11 damaged - lots of damaged forts!

Japanese ground losses:
46 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Chandpur at 30,25

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8

Allied aircraft
Beaufort V-IX x 1

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort V-IX: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Chandpur at 30,25

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
Mohawk IV x 2
Blenheim I x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 2 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Chandpur at 30,25

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
Wirraway x 2
Beaufort V-IX x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Wirraway: 3 destroyed

Japanese Ships
AP Kashu Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Chandpur at 30,25

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 1 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Akyab at 30,29

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 7

Allied aircraft
Beaufort V-IX x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort V-IX: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Akyab at 30,29

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 7

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 7
Blenheim IV x 26
P-40E Warhawk x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 5 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 11 destroyed, 7 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 8 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Yubari
DD Amagiri
AP Tazan Maru
CL Tatsuta
ML Sokuten
AP Tensyo Maru, Bomb hits 1 - the bombers did score one hit! Nothing serious though

Japanese ground losses:
26 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 1000 feet
4 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Blenheim I bombing at 1000 feet
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 1000 feet
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 1000 feet
2 x Blenheim I bombing at 1000 feet
4 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Blenheim IV bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Akyab at 30,29

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 5

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 6
Blenheim IV x 11
P-40E Warhawk x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged
Blenheim IV: 5 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Yubari
AP Yamakuni Maru
PG Nanpo Maru
AP Zenyo Maru
AP Teiun Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 1000 feet
3 x Blenheim I bombing at 1000 feet
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at Chandpur

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 45598 troops, 522 guns, 13 vehicles

Defending force 18716 troops, 192 guns, 535 vehicles - more troops than I though,eEngineers got some work to do

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 9)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 8

Japanese ground losses:
324 casualties reported
Guns lost 20
Vehicles lost 3

Allied ground losses:
345 casualties reported - a good start!
Guns lost 12
Vehicles lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 69952 troops, 808 guns, 32 vehicles

Defending force 42481 troops, 355 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
101 casualties reported - soon I'll attempt a deliberate attack!
Guns lost 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Akyab

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 22257 troops, 274 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 5478 troops, 47 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3) - should capture the base easily as soon as the forts have been reduced

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Japanese ground losses:
108 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Allied ground losses:
126 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 5267 troops, 59 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 2090 troops, 1 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0) - todays good news

Japanese ground losses:
20 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
55 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Dimapur

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 642 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 978 troops, 8 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 2) - ah, this almost worked! We try again, with more troops.

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation Report

Lots of smaller attacks against my invasion fleet, but they're mostly rebuffed! My ships haven't taken much damage from the coastal guns either.
The CVE is fine, 27 sys damage. Do you know what the yanks called their CVE's?
Combustable, Vulnerable & Expendable

The attacks at Chandpur were promising, but there are alsmot 20k Allied troops here and 9 (now 8) forts.
Decided to move in the remaining 120000men, don't want them to wait outside the enemy base for too long.
Also looking good at Akyab, another few attacks and the base will be secured.

Ordered naval search planes to recon the Indian bases in range today.
The effort at Dimpur will be expanded, the 1st Para Regiment will be lifted in and 16 Zeros will provide LRCAP from the CVE.
I'm sending the 2nd Para Regiment into Lashio. Only spotted one enemy unit here, and I wish to overwhelm the enemy.
Most of my transport got a max range of 8, but the Tina and Mavis transports got really long legs.

My sub outside Lunga was found by Allied escorts (cv?), it was lucky to survive!
It was a big surprise that the Allies only got a 0-0 odds when they attacked Lunga. Only got 9 Mavis transports at Rabaul, but they'll
try to move in a few more squads. My Zeros will sweep Lunga and I moved in 24 new fighters.

In China my troops will reach Kungching tomorrow. Lots of minor Chinese units manouvering in the hinterland. Sending some units after them..don't want ALL
my supply line cut when I'm marching north

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to Smiffus64)
Post #: 214
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/11/2004 12:04:12 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Looking good

(My point was more that a lot of forces already exist less fussed about raising new troops which I acknowledge would be poorly trained and equipped and I guess UK is recoiling from Rommmels Jan 42 offensive in the Desert and we are 2 monthss from Gazala... (but even at Gazala most of the formations below did not appear in Desert until after that battle)

5th Indian is in Syria 4th is in Delta and 10th in the Desert sorry If India was invaded some of these vet divs would have been transferred and 6th / 7th Australian would not have went to Oz land they would have deployed to India not to mention 50th (Tyne Tees) is in Cyprus and 2nd NZ is also training in the Delta not to mention various trained and equipped formations in 10th Army area a serious invasion of India would provoke a response perhaps not as quick or as strong as the amazing teleporting US Divisions on the West Coast but there would be a reaction but you are correct is a what if but then so is a Japanese Invasion of India ;)

anyway ill shut up now...ger on with it I want to watch the gallant allies kick the IJA back into the sea ..... without all the reinforcements

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 215
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/11/2004 1:22:50 AM   
bbbf

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 7/16/2000
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		I don't think India would have got the Australian divisions, not unless Churchill wanted to split the Empire right up. Australia wanted those boys home, fighting up north.

_____________________________

Robert Lee

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 216
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/12/2004 12:04:22 AM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Bah, the imperialists will be swept out of Asia and a NEW order will rise!
The quality of the Japanese shock troops is so good that there can be only one ending, VICTORY!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/12/42

Surface Combat

Invasions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 78
TF 78 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 96 encounters mine field at Akyab (30,29)

TF 96 troops unloading over beach at Akyab, 30,29

Japanese Ships
MSW Musashi Maru
PG Shosei Maru
PG Shinko Maru #5
PG Nanpo Maru
DD Mikazuki
AP Konron Maru, Mine hits 1, on fire - MSW's in the hex just don't want to sweep mines!! Just as in UV

Coastal Guns at Akyab, 30,29, firing at TF 96
11 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese ground losses:
24 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 9
TF 9 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25 - Second echelon troops disembarks!

539 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
PG Chohakusan Maru, Shell hits 6, on fire
AP Nitta Maru
CA Nachi, Shell hits 5
AP Kurohime Maru, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatakaze
DD Harukaze, Shell hits 2

Japanese ground losses:
1992 casualties reported
Guns lost 13
Vehicles lost 9

Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 24
TF 24 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese ground losses:
158 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 95
TF 95 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese ground losses:
186 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub/ASW Attacks

Sub attack near Mannargudi at 16,23

Japanese Ships
SS I-3

Allied Ships
DD Jupiter, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage - Magazine explodes, sinks!
DD Nestor
DD Isis
DD Fortune
DD Bulmer
DD Barker
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 14,23

Japanese Ships
SS I-15, hits 6, on fire, heavy damage - It's I-15 that has to pay for Jupiters misfortunes...

Allied Ships
DD Barker
DD Nestor
DD Isis
DD Fortune
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Day Air attack on Kungchang , at 46,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 20

Allied aircraft - Has Wobbly moved the Zeros west?
I-153c x 8
I-16c x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-153c: 12 destroyed - oh yes, much better!
I-16c: 6 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Lae , at 54,87

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 23
B-17E Fortress x 23

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 10 destroyed, 1 damaged - lost 4 Zeros today

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 4 damaged

Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 6th NLF , at 67,97

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 14
SBD Dauntless x 63 - More than 1 cv outside Lunga, hope they stay there!
TBD Devastator x 30

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
251 casualties reported - ouch!
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
17 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
15 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet
15 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
14 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
15 x TBD Devastator bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st Burma Brigade, at 29,33

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 8
Ki-21 Sally x 31

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 4 destroyed - Zeros on LRCAP doesn't engage
Ki-21 Sally: 2 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
50 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
12 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at Chandpur

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 74045 troops, 823 guns, 60 vehicles

Defending force 18244 troops, 177 guns, 532 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 7

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 7)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 7 - tomorrow we'll attack with twice as many troops!

Japanese ground losses:
371 casualties reported
Guns lost 10
Vehicles lost 3

Allied ground losses:
1344 casualties reported - yeees!
Guns lost 71
Vehicles lost 25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Akyab

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 22390 troops, 267 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 5214 troops, 39 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Akyab base !!! - yeeees!

Japanese ground losses:
64 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Allied ground losses:
128 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 69992 troops, 808 guns, 34 vehicles

Defending force 42289 troops, 360 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
117 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 39488 troops, 355 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 85494 troops, 840 guns, 129 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
12 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 5198 troops, 58 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1830 troops, 1 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Lunga base !!! - couldn't really hold, but the troops remain!

Japanese ground losses:
12 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
20 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Imphal

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1035 troops, 18 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 936 troops, 1 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 2) - need reinforcements!

Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Dimapur

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1104 troops, 7 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 962 troops, 7 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 6 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Dimapur base !!! - yeees!

Japanese ground losses:
21 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
14 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation Report

What a great day!
Lunga is captured by the enemy, but otherwise it's Empire Triumphant!

Akyab and Dimapur are both captured and India has been cut of from Burma and China.
Imphal has been attacked by paras, and may also fall if not reinforced.
Chandpur is taking heavy casualties and should fall within another few days.

To say the least, Wobbly is not very happy about the paras in the rear of his lines.
I secured no less than 8000 supplies at Dimpur, and I will do my best to reinforce the base with
more paras and airborne reinforcements until the Army can relieve them.

This is almost like a predecessor to Op. Market Garden. Let's hope we'll be the victor this time!

A second invasion group is already on its way and the KB will support it as soon as Zeros have
been transferred into Chandpur. I've moved a Daitai to Akyab, and transports will bring a full size
base force from Rangoon over the next few days.

The HMS Jupiter and co went sub hunting ang got a sub - but a torpedo also ignited the beautiful warships
magazine, and she went straight down. Al's ships have a bad tendency of blowing up?

Does anyone know who said: "There seems to be something bloody wrong with our ships today!"

Situation Map: Operation Hangover




Attachment (1)

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to bbbf)
Post #: 217
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/12/2004 1:01:16 AM   
Scharnhorst

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Does anyone know who said: "There seems to be something bloody wrong with our ships today!"


"There seems to be something bloody wrong with our damned ships, Chatfield!" said Admiral Beatty to Cpt. Chatfield on the BB LION in the Skagerak-battle as the BC Seydlitz and BC Derfflinger sunk the BC Queen Mary with hits into the magazines, short after BC Indefatigable was sunk also by magazine-hit.

Scharnhorst

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 218
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/12/2004 4:57:39 AM   
RAM

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 5/1/2000
From: Bilbao,Vizcaya,Spain
Status: offline 		I'm reading both AARs as you know (they are great, I say it again ,and I'm reading them with a lot of interest). But I think I can do a couple of comments from a purely neutral point of view and without slipping any hindsight of wobbly's AAR comments. mostly because I'm not commenting on what Wobbly is saying in his AAR but mostly on my own take on the story itself...and mostly on what I would do if I was him playing this magnific matchup.

Your operations on India seems to go allright thus far, but I think you're growing too much over confident...I'll try to explain myself:


quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 5198 troops, 58 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1830 troops, 1 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Lunga base !!! - couldn't really hold, but the troops remain!

Japanese ground losses:
12 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
20 casualties reported
Guns lost 2




IMO, and after playing the AI (which I know is FAR from having the capabilities of an human opponent), having the allied side taking and developing Lunga, with a proper expansion of Port Moresby aswell, spells doom for Rabaul in the medium term. If I was in Wobbly's spot, and as it is obvious that he has more than one CV near Lunga, I'd press more and using the advantage of nearby air cover, go for Munda or even Shortlands. If he gets to develop one of those two bases over 4 then mediums can pound Rabaul into rubble, assisted by long range pounding from PM, and you can do nothing to stop it.


I know that the Bay of Bengal is for now a pressing danger for Wobbly, and that you think that if he insists attacking in the SW pacific it's good for you. That might be true...but that might not be as true as you think. You're getting an amazing streak of victories and that might make you over confident...but think twice before you do it.

If I recall correctly he's got at this stage how many CVs? 5? (Lex, Sara, Yorktown, Enterprise, Wasp, Hornet?). Only two of those are enough for the needed operations in SW pacific (as your carriers are all committed into the India operations...and even once you get Junyo and Hiyo those aren't good enough to stop two american fleet carriers), and the other three can be used to assist and give air cover protection to long range trasnfer of good deal of troops from Oz to Karachi, enough to stop your push in India.


If you get in mid-42 with Rabaul neutralizad and your offensive in india stalled, you're really in bad shape because neutralizing Rabaul spells doom for your interest in the eastern side of New Guinea and allows him to take the initiative in the SW Pacific. Needless to say, that's BAD for you, as this shouldn't be happening until mid-43 the soonest. Rabaul is the key-spot of the southernmost side of the japanese outter defensive ring in the Pacific; if it's neutralized in mid-43 then the Phillipines may be in SERIOUS danger (and indeed they will be subjected to heavy air attacks before that) for early-or-mid-44 (maybe even before!), which is between 6 to 12 months before the historical timeline...and, if happens, is your definitive death for early 1945 the soonest. After 1943 Wobbly will have CVs to spare and he will be actively looking to hunt your carriers...of which you have already lost two.

in short: you can barely allow for lunga falling and being developed by him. But if wobbly goes for Shortlands of Munda, I'd better get the KB back into the pacific as soon as possible. If he takes one of both (shortlands is more dangerous to take but is worth the risk and much more dangerous for you) and gets it to size 4, you're in deep trouble. DEEP DEEP trouble.

_____________________________

RAM

"Look at me! look at me!!!

Not like that! NOT LIKE THAT!!!"

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 219
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/12/2004 5:27:18 AM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Hi RAM, and thanx for your comments
Always appreciate constructive feedback!

I'm not unaware of the dangers of letting Wobbly get a foothold in the South Pacific, but there are several reasons for not
moving the KB back (as this would be the only way I could counterattack)

1. Without the KB in the Indian Ocean, Hangover will fail. I'm dependent on air support to succeed, and if I move the carriers out - even 2 US cv's would be sufficient to shut me down completely.
2. I don't have the resources to fight both in the South Pacific and in India at the same time. I will have to cut Hangover short if I withdraw even 1 or 2 divisions.
3. The aim of Hangover is to win enough victories and 'kill' the British permanently. If I succeed, I can move most of my forces to the South Pacific and even defeat China. This would make it possible to win a decisive victory in January 1943.
4. If I don't win a decisive victory in 1943, I believe I'm going to loose the war! It sux to play the Japs in 1944-46, so I'm willing to play hardball. My way or the highway! Doesn't really matter whether I loose in 45 or 46...defeat is defeat and only victory matters.

I'm also of the opinion that islands and territory doesn't mean a thing if you don't have the resources to defend them with.
Only by defeating the American Navy in the Southern Pacific can I successfully win the war. How many cv/cvl/cve did they produce during the war?...think it was 90! -> Mission Impossible! I don't really believe in this, especially not as I've already lost 2 fleet carriers.

My experience from carrier engagements tells me that it's a highly uncertain business. Even with crack pilots and good ships, an unlucky turn of events - like Midway - can shatter the best laid plans. My 4 fleet carriers can easily be destroyed by 5 US carriers! Even if my ships only get damaged, or if their aircrew gets slaughtered, I will be in no position to support another potential war winning offensive.

These are my reasons for seeking a decisive engagement in India in 1942-1943.
If Hangover succeeds, I will re-deploy as soon as possible and try to regain lost ground and defeat the Imperialist Coalation.

If it fails, I will still withdraw the bulk of my forces as soon as possible and try to counterattack before the enemy gains too much of a quantitative and qualitative superiority. I don't really have to fight a decisive battle around Rabaul! I'll withdraw to the Marianas and poor Al if he attacks too early!

Believe me, I'm not over confident - but I'm very determined. I think that only by committing 110% to Hangiver will it be possible to win a decisive victory. I'm not going to divide my forces and squander this opportunity - as it's the only one I'm going to get in this game.

Let's have some ice in our stomages now and await Wobblys reaction! If I get close to winning, he'll send his carriers to the Indian Ocean. Sending all 5 means that he'll have to discontinue his drive in the Southern Pacific (which he hardly got the resources to fight before mid 43 anyway), or only send 2-3 carriers, which I should be able to defeat.

I very much prefer to make the enemy react to my initiatives than vice versa!

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to RAM)
Post #: 220
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/12/2004 6:32:07 AM   
RAM

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 5/1/2000
From: Bilbao,Vizcaya,Spain
Status: offline 		Hi there, PzB ;)

Many of your answers make sense, however I see some points worth a thought ;)


quote:

I'm not unaware of the dangers of letting Wobbly get a foothold in the South Pacific, but there are several reasons for not
moving the KB back (as this would be the only way I could counterattack)



of course I'm not telling you to get the KB out from the current zone -you need it for Hangover-, just to keep an eye on the Solomons. The americans have two crack marine divisions available in early-to-mid-42, making an early assault on Munda and/or Shortlands feasible. If they put a foothold there and develop the bases up to level four, say bye bye to Rabaul as a viable base...something which has serious consecuences, as I see it.


quote:

Only by defeating the American Navy in the Southern Pacific can I successfully win the war. How many cv/cvl/cve did they produce during the war?...think it was 90! -> Mission Impossible! I don't really believe in this, especially not as I've already lost 2 fleet carriers.


I think that's the key here. You'll miss Hiryu and Soryu a lot...those two carriers with Junyo and Hiyo would be enough to keep the americans away from any offensive operations in the waters near Rabaul for a loooong time...and with the rest of KB you'd have enough to achieve the force projection you need in India...

But such is life ;)


quote:


These are my reasons for seeking a decisive engagement in India in 1942-1943.
If Hangover succeeds, I will re-deploy as soon as possible and try to regain lost ground and defeat the Imperialist Coalation.


however if australian troops are redeployed into India Hangover will probably stall...with the KB heavily committed in the Bay of Bengal they might slip past your attention and then you'd have some nasty surprises awaiting for you...not good ;).



quote:

If it fails, I will still withdraw the bulk of my forces as soon as possible and try to counterattack before the enemy gains too much of a quantitative and qualitative superiority. I don't really have to fight a decisive battle around Rabaul! I'll withdraw to the Marianas and poor Al if he attacks too early!



I see a potentially fatal breach here. Wobbly doesn't need the Marianas. Until 1944 and masses of B29s, they are mostly worthless. Historically the Marianas were a vital key because they were into Superfortress range to Japan. In 1943 they can be skipped by. If you lose Rabaul as a viable defensive base you're giving up most of New Guinea. A concerted trhust to reconquer all the island puts Philliphines into range of allied bombers. The assault to Phillipines may perfectly come from the south, not the east, and New Guinea is a magnific springboard for it...
the sequence goes more or less like:

-you lose Rabaul as a viable base too soon, you lose all Eastern New Guinea too soon.

-You lose Eastern NG, you are vulnerable in Western Guinea

-Wobbly gets a good base in NG to put heavies on, and you get Phillipines worked upside down.

-Wobbly gets a good base in NG to put Mids on, and you get the southern Phillipine islands bombed until only rubble's left

-Wobbly uses NG as springboard and Voila!...Leyte Gulf happens in early 1944. You will have to commit all your defenses here or you're toast, and by this time the correlation of forces is heavily biased against you. The operation can be costly for Wobbly but he can get the losses. You can't...and you WILL stand heavier losses against Hellcats, Helldivers and Avengers.

-Wobbly gets a couple of big bases in Philliphines and you very well can start praying about your convoys to Japan.

-Japan starves without resources

-War is over ;).


See what I try to say? ;)



quote:

Believe me, I'm not over confident - but I'm very determined. I think that only by committing 110% to Hangiver will it be possible to win a decisive victory. I'm not going to divide my forces and squander this opportunity - as it's the only one I'm going to get in this game.


not calling for you dividing your forces...just trying to warn you -don't let the americans deny you the use of Rabaul. If Rabaul is gone, you're in deep trouble. Maybe even if Hangover succeeds ;).




quote:


I very much prefer to make the enemy react to my initiatives than vice versa!



which is the key for victories, but remember...you keep the initiative on ONE theater at a time...where the KB is. Elsewhere, he's got the initiative -and you must react.

So better try and anticipate to his moves ;).

< Message edited by RAM -- 11/12/2004 4:47:46 AM >

_____________________________

RAM

"Look at me! look at me!!!

Not like that! NOT LIKE THAT!!!"

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 221
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/12/2004 8:50:42 AM   
Scharnhorst

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Not to much details, my english is to bad.
But:
If you begin such a massive offensive, you have to fight it to the (lucky/bitter) end.
If you do not: Look at battle of Kursk July 1943. On the peak of the battle the germans took there best forces out of the front to send them to italy agaist the landing allied forces and the war was lost.
Or: "If you defend everthing, you defend nothing".
I think you have to fight hangover to the end and destroy the enemy forces !!(not cities or industrie). Than you can leave india alone for the rest of the war.
To fight on 2 fronts doesn´t work.

Scharnhorst

(in reply to RAM)
Post #: 222
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/12/2004 12:27:57 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline 		The force will be with you!

The situation looking really good for Japan right now. How many troops evil Wobbly have in Burma (east from Chandpur?). Are you planing (after sucessful invasion of coure) strike with your invasion troops to the burma or you will use them for further advance in india (west)?

Although the WiTP community just start their campaigns, i'm pretty sure that your invasion will be studied for many generations of players as a masterpiece (of course, if you achive sucess ).

There is only one bigger mistake than insisting on your plan - changing your plan (oh, maybe i will also be cited in WiTP academy). India certantly worth a lot of points (for destroying enemy troops, liberated cities), so keep the good work.

one more question - do you invest in rd? How many rd points you have for Oscars or other researched ac?

(in reply to Scharnhorst)
Post #: 223
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/13/2004 2:34:07 AM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		If this thread does make an Allied player paranoid about losing India, nothing will.....

_____________________________


"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to pauk)
Post #: 224
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/13/2004 10:30:31 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

If this thread does make an Allied player paranoid about losing India, nothing will.....



You got that right ! I need a way to block this AAR thread from my opponents.

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to denisonh)
Post #: 225
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/15/2004 2:32:42 AM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Sorry for putting out such heretic ideas, they're completely insane and doesn't stand a chance of succeeding!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

If this thread does make an Allied player paranoid about losing India, nothing will.....


You got that right ! I need a way to block this AAR thread from my opponents.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/13/42

Surface Combat

Invasions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 9
TF 9 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

138 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Matsukaze
AP Nagano Maru, Shell hits 1
DD Harukaze
AP Kenzan Maru, Shell hits 4, on fire
CA Nachi

Japanese ground losses:
1490 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 24
TF 24 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

19 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Hayashio, Shell hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
111 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 9
TF 9 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

181 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
AP Kyokusei Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Harukaze
DD Asakaze
AP Huso Maru, Shell hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
DD Matsukaze

Japanese ground losses:
1496 casualties reported
Guns lost 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 24
TF 24 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese ground losses:
84 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 1007 encounters mine field at Colombo (14,24)

Allied Ships
DD Fortune
DD Bulmer
DD Nestor, Mine hits 1, on fire - my sub laid mines claims another victim!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub/ASW Attacks

ASW attack at 13,23

Japanese Ships
SS RO-64, hits 3 - oncredible enough damage is light, only 24 sys and light flooding. Heading home

Allied Ships
DD Nestor
DD Isis
DD Fortune
DD Bulmer
DD Barker
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Day Air attack on Dimapur , at 33,23

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 20

No Allied losses

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
All Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Lae , at 54,87

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 22
B-17E Fortress x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 5 damaged

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 42nd Chinese Corps, at 46,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 11
Ki-48 Lily x 21

Allied aircraft
I-153c x 12
I-16c x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
Ki-48 Lily: 5 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
I-153c: 20 destroyed, 1 damaged - Goodbye Chink AF!
I-16c: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Dacca , at 31,24 - trying to find the B17's...

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
D3A Val x 79

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 7 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 10 destroyed, 3 damaged
Swordfish: 4 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied ground losses:
91 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 27

Aircraft Attacking:
All D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at Chandpur

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 146034 troops, 1537 guns, 657 vehicles

Defending force 23014 troops, 208 guns, 506 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 6

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 6)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 6

Japanese ground losses:
624 casualties reported
Guns lost 25
Vehicles lost 2

Allied ground losses:
2138 casualties reported - a few more days, and we'll have a beachead in India!
Guns lost 55
Vehicles lost 40
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 70085 troops, 812 guns, 34 vehicles

Defending force 42200 troops, 359 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
60 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 39580 troops, 359 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 85619 troops, 844 guns, 130 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 5152 troops, 55 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1804 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 - not getting anywhere! Hopefully I can stall the Allies for a while.

Japanese ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
42 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Imphal

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1842 troops, 19 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1114 troops, 5 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0 - good, perhaps the base will fall tomorrow! More paras will be landed.

Japanese ground losses:
35 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
45 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation Report

Several of my invasions convoys are now heading south and back to Singapore. There they will prepare for the next phase of Hangover! The invasions of Karachi and Bombay!

Losses in shipping have been slight, only a handful support and transport ships have been sunk or damaged.
In a few days all remaining ships will be unloaded and Chandpur will become a Japanese stronghold.
The KB will then move south to support the invasion of Ceylon.

I'm ordering reinforcements to Dimapur and Imphal: Base force and another SNLF para unit will be dropped.

In the South Pacific I'm ordering a reinforcement of Shortland. A fast transport group is moving a big SNLF unit in while several minelayers will mine Lunga and surrounding bases. A surface group made up of 2 cl's and 6 dd's are moving another SNLF unit from Kendari to Rabaul.

My adversary from the other side of the World says that the idea to invade Lunga was based on the KB's presence in the Indian Ocean. Accordingly, not well supported...hm, we'll see about that. Also, an operation Rapier is mentioned and this is supposedly more promising. I will not divert forces to the South Pacific from Hangover, but tomorrow I receive substantial air reinforcements. A much stronger Zero/Betty force will be established at Rabaul and Kwajalein.

Al has allowed me to read my AAR page to, and vice versa. I've not had time for this yet as I've been rather busy drinking my way into my 4th decade this weekend, still not recovered. Watching the River Kwai on the telly while typing this report with one finger...nothing else is yet operational!

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 226
Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 2:20:16 AM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/14/42

Surface Combat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 29,27

Japanese Ships
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 1
DD Chidori
DD Manazuru
DD Hatsukari
DD Tomozuru
MSW Banshu Maru #18
MSW Banshu Maru #52
MSW Choun Maru #18
PG Akitsu Maru
PG Aso Maru
PG Busho Maru
PG Chitose Maru
PC Ch 14
PC Ch 16
PC Ch 17
PC Ch 32
AP Kyosei Maru
AP Kyuma Maru
AP Meisho Maru
AP Mikage Maru #2
AP Minowa Maru
AP Minryo Maru
AP Mitsu Maru #3
AP Neikai Maru
AP Nichiryu Maru
AP Nihonkai Maru
AP Nissen Maru #3
AP Nojima Maru
AP Otori Maru
AP Shikano Maru
AP Shinkoku Maru
AP Shinwa Maru
AP Shirogane Maru
AP Shoho Maru
AP Sumanoura Maru
AP Sumiyoshi Maru
AP Taganoura Maru
AP Tainichi Maru
AP Takuei Maru
AP Takunan Maru
AP Taian Maru
AP Tama Maru #2
AP Tarushima Maru
AP Tateyama Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Tenran Maru
AP Tenryu Maru
AP Tenzan Maru
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Tsuiba Maru

Allied Ships
DD Parrott, Shell hits 13, and is sunk - how did this poor thing end up in the middle of a huge convoy returning to Singapore?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub/ASW Attacks

Sub attack at 15,23

Japanese Ships
SS RO-63

Allied Ships
MSW Ipswitch, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage (sinks)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Invasions

Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 9
TF 9 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

342 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Asakaze
DD Matsukaze
CA Nachi, Shell hits 4
AP Kiyozumi Maru, Shell hits 4, on fire
AP Kansan Maru
DD Harukaze, Shell hits 2
AP Igasa Maru

Japanese ground losses:
730 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 24
TF 24 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese ground losses:
91 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 9
TF 9 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

4 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese ground losses:
78 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 24
TF 24 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese ground losses:
13 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Day Air attack on Imphal , at 33,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 6
P-40E Warhawk x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 4 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 14 destroyed, 1 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kungchang , at 46,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 22 - The Hurries are back! Good thing my Lilys decided to stay home.

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 9 destroyed, 2 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 28,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 54
D3A Val x 14
B5N Kate x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Illinoian, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage (sinks)

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
8 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
6 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,25

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 1
D3A Val x 13
B5N Kate x 14

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Indianan, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage (sinks)

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat
Ground combat at Chandpur

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 153909 troops, 1510 guns, 718 vehicles

Defending force 13170 troops, 40 guns, 412 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese assault odds: 27 to 1 (fort level 5)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Chandpur base !!!¨


Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 18 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
142 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Allied ground losses:
1341 casualties reported
Guns lost 21
Vehicles lost 27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 70094 troops, 811 guns, 34 vehicles

Defending force 42211 troops, 360 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
78 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Kungchang

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 65756 troops, 527 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 7372 troops, 84 guns, 0 vehicles - the remainding units just stopped advancing :p

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 - amateurs!

Japanese ground losses:
161 casualties reported
Guns lost 9

Allied ground losses:
109 casualties reported
Guns lost 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 39638 troops, 357 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 85608 troops, 843 guns, 130 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
41 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 5072 troops, 51 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1901 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
169 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Imphal

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 2416 troops, 19 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1236 troops, 8 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Imphal base !!!

Japanese ground losses:
86 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
50 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation Report

A most excellent day for the Empire today!! The Imperialists were dealt several tough blows
The fall of Chandpur has released the KB from its current duties, and after replenishing it is now sailing WSW to support the
invasion of Trincomalee. The battle fleets are also heading this way together with the MSW and a DD group.

It seemed like Wobbly had retreated some units out of Chandour and back into Dacca. I've ordered the army to march north immediately. I got 2 divisions and a lot of supporting units that have been preparing to invade this base for quite some time.

2 Zero and one Betty Daitai have been moved in, and should be able to provide complete air supremacy in the area.
Supplies are still being unloaded, and a reinforcement convoy with partial and reserve units are being loaded.

The fall of Imphal was also satisfactory, supplies will be flown in - then a base force and some fighters.
In Dimapur I've moved a partial base force in, but an enemy unit appeared today. A naval garrison unit will be airlifted in
tonight - I hope I can hold. Need a few days to secure my new bases - but at least I'm forcing Al to disperse his units.

A deliberate attack has also been ordered north of Rangoon, and the 14th Army is preparing. I'm not sure how effective malaria, bombardments and air strikes have been at reducing the enemy - but I'm afraid I'll be rebuffed. Can't understand how the enemy can remain in this position much longer though. I'm really eager to open up a supply line directly into Chandpur.

Two transports, one destroyer and 1 enemy msw were also sunk today without losses to the IJN.
Subs are now moving west from the area around Chandpur.

In China a partial division advanced alone into Kungching - got attacked by 70k Chinese troops and repelled them
I'm having problems getting troops to follow eachother. Got a bad tendency of halting, and I've had to march the last 60miles twice *grr*. The Hurricanes were also back, but my ordered Lily attacks was never launched. A Zero sweep did reduce their numbers again though. I've also managed to surround a chinese unit in the middle of my armies. Will try to eliminate it asap.

In the South Pacific everything is quiet...a little too quiet. No signs of enemy ships and Wobbly is talking about yet another operation!? I received 4 new Zero Daitais today together with Sallys. In 3 days I'll be getting my first Zero A6M3 Daitai as well. Most of these units and some torpedo bombers will move south when the weather lifts. Not sure were I'll deploy them, perhaps they can be used as a tactical reserve. Really have no idea whether the eager Kiwi is bluffing or is really planning to invade another base. If he is - Tarawa and Shortland seems the most obvious choices. Don't think he'll take on any of my bigger bases. Rabaul, Truk and Kwajalein got almost 100000 troops between them as well as heavy fortifications. The regiment that invaded Lunga didn't exactly seem very proficient either...

A bold move against Saipan and the Marianas would be scary, but that would also be suicidal that far from Allied bases - and Al doesn't need these bases until 1944 when the B29's arrive of the production line. Will move base forces and garrison units to reinforce the islands nevertheless.

Also moving reinforcements to Chandpur and Truk from Kendari. Mostly SNLF, garrison, construction and base units.
Tomorrow a sizeable garrison unit will be unloaded at Shortland.

Situation Map: Chanpdur & Imphal falls




Attachment (1)

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 227
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 3:15:53 AM   
Terminus Est

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline 		Like we say in french: "Je suis pendu à tes lèvres!" (literally I'm hanging by your lips, meaning I'm fascinated by your story).

I wish you both could play 10 turns a day, so I'd know what will happen in the next month or two ... keep up the good work!

_____________________________

Who IS General Failure, and why is he reading my disk?

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 228
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 7:39:14 AM   
SteveV

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 8/11/2004
Status: offline 		What are the garrison requirements the computer is imposing for the Japs to keep Chandpur? It should be enormous to say the least.

This is probably a good object lesson on how ahistorical play can break the simulation. The idea that the Japanese could have succesfully transported, invaded and occupied any significant territory in the Indian sub-continent, much less simultaneously conquer and garrison sizeable chunks of China is-historically-ridiculous. Not critiquing anyone's play here at all as it appears excellent. Just commenting that this could not and would not have been remotely possible IRL.

The population of India at this time was over half a billion. Same for China. No way.

The British navy and air force could be removed from the game and this still would not be possible with anything short of atomic weapons for the Japs.

I am a bit disappointed that the designers did not foresee this "Asia First" strategy. There should be literally hordes of units released to defend India that are obviously not modeled. To say nothing of garrison requirements.

Fun idea, just not history.

The equivilant of this would be to allow a surprise 1942 invasion of the Japanese mainland and not allow for massive garrison units. These units ARE in the game.

The China modeling problem has been previously discussed in other threads. Those Japanese troops hundreds of miles inland should be attriting at a huge rate. There was no way to logistically supply anywhere close to this number. Heck, the native Chinese were starving. How would all these combat troops survive? Superhighways or railroad construction on an epic scale.

Sorry, rant over. Not suggesting that the game shouldn't allow flexibility, just would like it to have to be within reasonable historic limitations.

SteveV

(in reply to Terminus Est)
Post #: 229
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 8:57:10 AM   
sveint


Posts: 3556
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Glorious Europe
Status: offline
quote:

is-historically-ridiculous


I respectfully disagree. People tend to label anything that didn't happen as 'ahistorical'.

Anyway, carry on - this is everyone's favorite AAR!

(in reply to SteveV)
Post #: 230
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 8:59:27 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		Great AAR indeed. Keep it up!

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 231
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 10:43:06 AM   
Delphinium

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: United Kingdom (England)
Status: offline 		I agree with the critique of game, but from the much discussed perspective that the game cannot react to the huge range of possible Japanese strategic variants it permits. You have to remember these are the guys doing the REAL Beta testing

The same applies to the strategy of attacking/capturing PH which everybody knows is within the scope of a competent Japanese player. Can anybody consider that the US would not have transferred some of the naval/air/land forces from the Atlantic if the threat to Pearl was real an present?

I like WitP, but the developers could never make it more than a limited sandbox that works reasonably well if play follows close to history. I enjoy these AAR's, but I also used to enjoy Turtledove's novels too

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 232
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 10:47:11 AM   
kaiser73


Posts: 394
Joined: 7/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveV

What are the garrison requirements the computer is imposing for the Japs to keep Chandpur? It should be enormous to say the least.

This is probably a good object lesson on how ahistorical play can break the simulation. The idea that the Japanese could have succesfully transported, invaded and occupied any significant territory in the Indian sub-continent, much less simultaneously conquer and garrison sizeable chunks of China is-historically-ridiculous. Not critiquing anyone's play here at all as it appears excellent. Just commenting that this could not and would not have been remotely possible IRL.

The population of India at this time was over half a billion. Same for China. No way.

The British navy and air force could be removed from the game and this still would not be possible with anything short of atomic weapons for the Japs.

I am a bit disappointed that the designers did not foresee this "Asia First" strategy. There should be literally hordes of units released to defend India that are obviously not modeled. To say nothing of garrison requirements.

Fun idea, just not history.

The equivilant of this would be to allow a surprise 1942 invasion of the Japanese mainland and not allow for massive garrison units. These units ARE in the game.

The China modeling problem has been previously discussed in other threads. Those Japanese troops hundreds of miles inland should be attriting at a huge rate. There was no way to logistically supply anywhere close to this number. Heck, the native Chinese were starving. How would all these combat troops survive? Superhighways or railroad construction on an epic scale.

Sorry, rant over. Not suggesting that the game shouldn't allow flexibility, just would like it to have to be within reasonable historic limitations.

SteveV


Please explain to me how UK was able to control 500 milions Indian while Japan couldn't. The garrison requirements, if added, should be added for english too. India was seeking independence.

(in reply to SteveV)
Post #: 233
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 1:23:57 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kaiser73
Please explain to me how UK was able to control 500 milions Indian while Japan couldn't. The garrison requirements, if added, should be added for english too. India was seeking independence.


Ghandi was a english mercenery. Didn't you know?

SteveV: seriously, i think this AAR shouldn't be hijacked by "socio-political" issues.

(in reply to kaiser73)
Post #: 234
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 2:42:49 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Thanx for your encouraging posts gentles
Must admit that I'm having trouble concentrating on assignments when I got a WitP turn in my inbox..

As with all 'what if' operations, endless discussions can be had on whether it would be a realistic approach or not.
So I'm just going to work with what I got and see were it takes me. I did read a book chapter about a potential Jap invasion of India - following much the same lines as I'm doing now. It failed in the end though, but the Japs stayed until 1944 and managed to capture huge chunks of India.

Holding an Empire is much more difficult than actually aquiring one - just ask Adolf and Tojo

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/15/42

Surface Combat

Sub/ASW Attacks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 15,23

Japanese Ships
SS RO-63

Allied Ships
DD Bulmer
DD Isis - is hit, but torpedoes fails to detonate...
DD Fortune
DD Barker
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 14,23

Japanese Ships
SS I-18, hits 10, on fire, heavy damage - goodbye...

Allied Ships
DD Barker
DD Isis
DD Fortune
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Night Air attack on Sian , at 47,29

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
IL-4c x 3
SB-2c x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
IL-4c: 2 damaged
SB-2c: 2 destroyed

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x IL-4c bombing at 8000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Sian , at 47,29

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
IL-4c x 3
SB-2c x 4

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
IL-4c: 2 damaged
SB-2c: 2 destroyed

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x IL-4c bombing at 8000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 8000 feet
----------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kungchang , at 46,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 19

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 7 destroyed - these guys are good!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Colombo at 14,24

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 9 - extreme long range attack!

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Isis
DD Fortune, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Colombo at 14,24

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 18 - another one

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Fortune, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage - good results too!
DD Barker, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at 29,33

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 81700 troops, 813 guns, 130 vehicles

Defending force 42303 troops, 359 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
4356 casualties reported *augh*
Guns lost 142
Vehicles lost 19

Allied ground losses:
808 casualties reported
Guns lost 20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Kungchang

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 61209 troops, 489 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 9211 troops, 75 guns, 144 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
66 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4844 troops, 45 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1981 troops, 3 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Dimapur

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 1432 troops, 33 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 2655 troops, 15 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0) - checked!

Allied ground losses:
258 casualties reported
Guns lost 14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation Report

Tomorrow the Army in India will move into Dacca! That will be an interesting struggle, if this base also falls as easily as Chandpur did....I don't think anything can stop me from reaching the set objectives.

The first Allied attempt to recapture Dimapur failed, and I'm continuing to airlift reinforcements. As we captured a huge stockpile of supplies, this is not a worry. Matters are different at Imphal though, but that base is much closer to my other bases.

There are issues - I've burned a lot of fuel, but think I got sufficient left to support the invasion of Trincomalee which should come down in less than a week.

In China progress towards Kungching is slow as fatigue is getting high. If Wobbly counterattacks, a few units will be ejected I'm afraid. He said that only 1 unit attacked yesterday as he cancelled an initial attack order for the other units.

It's dead quiet in the South Pacific - eerie! Al told me that I would have no time to redeploy the KB either...
I'm afraid he's really up to something, but I have no idea were he's going to hit. Told him that Tarawa is my best guess.
Can't reinforce this base as I don't have enough air support in the area. A few cv's would sink everything in range outright.

So this is my response to this so called Op. Rapier:
1. All base building in the South Pacific is cancelled and fort construction stepped up.
2. 1 ca and 7 dd's are moving from Tokyo to Truk
3. 2 cl and 6 dd's are moving from Kendari to Truk (loaded with a SNLF unit originally intended for Rabaul)
4. A troop convoy is heading towards Saipan
5. 4 Zero, 1 Sally, 3 Betty and Kate Daitais' are moving from Java, Kendari and Japan towards Saipan and Truk

I'm not sure how I can use these units against an invasion supported by 4-5 carriers, have to see what happens.
No matter how painful it gets, I'm going to finish Hangover before redeploying the KB. This means at least another 2-3 months...at the best!

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to pauk)
Post #: 235
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/16/2004 5:04:58 PM   
SteveV

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 8/11/2004
Status: offline 		Gentlemen:

I was not trying to "hijack" the thread or AAR. I believe I stressed that it reflected excellent play on both sides and is a wonderful read.

What I was trying to point out is that it is illustrating flaws in the "virtual sandbox" to quote from above that the simulation is trying to model. If the game allows this "Asia First" strategy without allowing/requiring substantial Anglo forces to be released and massive garrison requirements then this is something we need to be aware of. We don't have "historical" data on this because the actual Japanese didn't--and I would submit--could NOT have done this operation.

We have better evidence in China. The Japanese did not advance into China as is being accomplished quite easily in this (and other) replays. The major 2 culprits were logisitics and population. Furthermore, there was nothing of value for the Japanese to take--which the WitP model unfortunately does reward. The only time the Japanese moved any substantial distance into the mainland was during 1944 to overun strategic air bases. They did so relatively decisively--but in a much smaller area for a short period of time.

If discussing garrison and logistical requirements for a bold strategy is "socio political" then forgive me. I thought those were wargame considerations.

This plan is brilliant and helps show the model needs help.

Again, the best example would be if the Japanese homeland was not modeled with significant garrisons in 1942-3 since the US did not "historically" invade directly. Would everyone applaud a "bold" US invasion in 1942 which conquers the Japanese industrial base even though it would be completely impossible? How about a 1942 invasion of France? How about a Japanese invasion of the West Coast? The game doesn't handle that well either. I bet John could take those same 200K troops and drop them into San Fran and make hay also--do you want that to happen?

Again, this game is excellent and excellently played. The AAR report itself has been wonderful. All players playing both sides are indebted to John's bold effort since we now know the model has problems and we better account for it or else get Matrix to fix it or make house rules. That is assuming that in the long run this works out for John, which I believe it will.

SteveV

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 236
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/16/2004 10:11:25 PM   
Huskalator

 

Posts: 212
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		The allies have the unfair advantage of being able to look at history and prepare ahead of time. This makes thing just as ahistorical.

I think the ability of Japan to pull off a maneuver like this is good for the game and keeps the allied player honest.

_____________________________

SW Episode 2:Good movie, bad love story

Happiness is the only good. The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. The way to be happy is to make others so.

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 237
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/16/2004 11:23:31 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I for one would not argue that the offensive OOB of the allies is wrong I think its defensive may be a bit understated (although I wonder where the 56th UK Division was).

However we play the game we are given andas you say it stops an Allied player being to aggressive with forces from India which lets face it if I knew that the 2nd the Japanes invaded I would get 3 or 4 UK/ CW Divisions then I would be a lot more willing to take risks as the UK so much as I hate to say it we should just play the game as is as its the best balance of honesty/ reality and ahistorical that we are going to find IMHO.

(in reply to Huskalator)
Post #: 238
RE: Chandpur and Imphal falls!! - 11/17/2004 12:06:15 AM   
Honda


Posts: 953
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Karlovac, Croatia
Status: offline 		I think India should be left as it is. There will always be someone saying the lacks this, that, etc. but that doesn't mean those changes have to be accepted. And India can be easily defended using deep defence and keeping your airforce deep inland whan faced with the KB onslought. Every measure has a countermeasure.
Anyway, great AAR. Again. But, he11, you can never have too much praise, right?

(in reply to SteveV)
Post #: 239
RE: Operation Hangover - 11/17/2004 12:19:36 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

You got that right ! I need a way to block this AAR thread from my opponents.



Certainly will make the Allied player think twice about simply stuffing Mandalay, Rangoon and Akyab with most, if not all of their best LCU's And thank god they dont have to use any of em to quell the series of domestic disturbances that brewed up in India during 42!

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(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 240
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