War Plan Orange Mod, November Update! (Screens) (New Gunboat Screens now added!)

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> War Plan Orange: Dreadnoughts in the Pacific 1922 - 1930 >> War Plan Orange Mod, November Update! (Screens) (New Gunboat Screens now added!)

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War Plan Orange Mod, November Update! (Screens) (New Gu... - 11/17/2004 1:35:39 AM

Tankerace

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Well boys, what can I say. Its been a very fun (and tough) four months. But, the work is finally shaping up. The hundreds of hours of graphic editing, researching, and database entry is finally paying off. While the mod isn't done, it is almost there. Hopefully (God willing) I can have it out in December.

Hopefully this week, I'll be talking to Mike Wood over the phone, and hopefully we can do something about setting the scenario starting date in the 1920's (@Mike, my hotmail is down, that is why I haven't emailed you).

So, without further delay, here are some new screens. They are showing off battleships and cruisers, and show graphic changes as time progresses.

First up, the Armored Cruiser Charlotte (ex-North Carolina)

A sister ship, USS Missoula, after being rebuilt in 1926.

The Protected Cruiser Chester. A small cruiser, useful as a destroyer leader.

The First Class Cruiser St. Louis. While in WW2 terms a light cruiser, under the 1920 designation system she is classed as a CA.

The First of the "Capital Cruisers", USS Lexington.

The L class submarine L-11. The L class served in US, British, and Russian Navies (American Built sub).

The First of the V boats, The V-1. (Better known as USS Barracuda)

Now, the first working pre-dreadnought in WPO, the Vermont class Kansas.

Compare the South Dakotas after some modernizing (Note, 4 of the 6 SDs will arrive in the configuration of the second example).

The South Dakota in her as built fit, without catapault.

The Indiana after modernizing in 1928. Note catapaults and 5"/25 Mk 10 AA guns.

The Nevada as built in 1916, and little modified at the start of War Plan Orange.

The Oklahoma after modernization. Note catapaults and 5"/25 guns. Also note relatively uncluttered look, compared to the 1941 Pearl Harbor fit.

The Texas after rebuilding in 1927. Again, note tripods and other goodies. Compare to earlier pics of her in my previous updates.

The Wyoming after rebuilding. Again, compare to previous shots in previous updates.

The Beloved Utah, after 1927 modernization. The near-sister Delawares are modernized to a similar design. Note 5"/25s and catapault on Q turret.

Well, that's all for now. As you can see, lots of work being done. Enjoy!.

OK, more screenshots. Gunboats! Can you say Sand Pebbles.

The Ashevilles (at Manila in Scenario 15) are present, but are considerable different from their normal Witp appearance. They are also the only US made seagoing gunboats (barring the PG-CL Denver class)

The Elcano (Incorrectly spelled Eclano in Jane's Fighting Ships) is an old Gunboat captured during the Spanish American War. She is based out of Manila.

Looking similar to the Elcano, this class (Small Gunboat) represents a myriad of 3pdr armed US gunboats. The same graphic also represents a myriad of 3pdr armed Phillippine owned gunboats (US have 4 3pdrs, PI have 3 3pdrs)

And the most famous gunboat, the Panay. The Panay, Wake, and Luzon classes of River gunboats are all represented, though they do not arrive until 1926.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 11/16/2004 9:06:28 PM >

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod, November Update! (Screens) - 11/17/2004 1:50:56 AM

madflava13

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Looks great... Can't wait for the final product!

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod, November Update! (Screens) - 11/17/2004 4:43:22 AM

Alikchi2

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Looks fantastic.

BC Lexington looks splendid.

By the way, are you modeling the DEI?

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod, November Update! (Screens) - 11/17/2004 4:47:56 AM

Tankerace

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For the non-battle specific scenarios, the entire Pacific is your sandbox. As the Japanese, you can hit the DEI, SRA, PI, China, Russia, or go for the US.

No Dutch ships will be present, as I can find no evidence that would suggest a large Dutch naval presence in 1922.

Also, more screenshots are coming in a few minutes. I can describe them with a movie title: "The Sand Pebbles".

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod, November Update! (Screens) - 11/17/2004 4:57:07 AM

von Murrin

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Beautiful!

I will patiently wait.

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod, November Update! (Screens) - 11/17/2004 4:58:33 AM

Tankerace

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Ok, 4 gunboat screenshots added to the first post.

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War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/17/2004 6:12:30 AM

Tankerace

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I am posting these three screens, because I think it is quite impressive. Look how much a ship can change in 21 years.

The Queen Elizabeth, as built WWI and as first appearing in WPO

The Valiant, as modernized in 1926. Only Valiant, Warspite, and QE will be allowed to upgrade to this fit in WPO

Finally, Warspite as she appeared in WW2. It is just wierd how a large chunk of steel and armor can be molded and reshaped.

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/17/2004 1:51:55 PM

Desertmole

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Fantastic doesn't begin to describe it!

Can't wait to try it out!!!

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/17/2004 6:02:54 PM

KPAX

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excellent job and looking forward to it.

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Thanks !!

KPAX

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/17/2004 6:09:35 PM

UncleBuck

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Should be fun. I think your WPO will add a great deal to the WitP experience. I can see this leading to much more Surface/Comerce raiding in all other scenarios.

UB

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/17/2004 7:12:22 PM

PeteG662

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Make sure you have a reserved slot for the scenario! LOL

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/18/2004 2:06:34 AM

Tankerace

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LOL. Thanks all. As I said, I hope you all have as much fun playing it as I did making it.

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/22/2004 5:29:38 AM

mutterfudder

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/22/2004 8:59:16 AM

Onime No Kyo

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Stupid question Tank,

But whats with the A/C valued on the BBs? I was under the impression that youre not including spotter A/Cs. Or are they just there for historical reasons?

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/22/2004 10:08:17 AM

Tankerace

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I am including spotting aircraft.

In 1923, all Dreadnoughts from the Nevadas on receive 2 catapaults, and a section of 3 Vought UO-1s. Then, in 1928, they receive more modern catapaults and aircraft, and the Delawares, Floridas, Wyomings, and New Yorks receive catapaults aswell..

Originally I wasn't going to include them, because I couldn't find solid evidence as to when they were added. But from further research, it seems that starting in 1923, the Nevadas, Pennsylvanias, New Mexicos, Tennessees, and Colorados received very early catapaults, though not as sophisticated as what they had in WW2.

In the First nine months of the scenario (June 1922-March 1923) there will be no scouting planes for either side, as I don't think WitP can simulate flying off platforms that well. Then, starting in March 1923, the later US dreadnoughts receive catapaults, and their Japanese counterparts follow suit in 1925. In 1927, the older US dreadnoughts (excluding the South Carolinas) begin receiving catapaults, and in 1928-29 the later US dreadnoughts undergo their reconstructions.

Each class can have catapaults added in a certain month, and in the same month VO and Chutai sections become available. Also, for the US, about 3 sections of FB sections become available. Historically deployed only on the Tennesse, these "Battleship Fighter" squadrons can give your fleet some cover from air attack, especially since the Langley doesn't arrive from the Atlantic until 1924.

Aircraft will not play a major role in War Plan Orange, however, a good selection of planes will be present. The main effort, however, is still on surface combat.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 11/22/2004 2:08:57 AM >

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/22/2004 10:46:30 PM

Onime No Kyo

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I didnt realize that BBs hat torp launchers in the 20s. Just goes to show you how drastically naval tactics can change in some 15-20 years. Incidentally, what does the "A" facing on a gun mean?

P.S. Valiant at Midway?! What are you doing over there?

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/22/2004 11:29:18 PM

Tankerace

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lol, those screens are from my "Publicity" scenario, where I just stick ships in a port to get screenies.

A means all arcs, because the few AA machineguns there were could be mounted anywhere, and it would seem to me that if you only have 2, you can move them around.

BTW, As far as torps, if you look at the Repulse in WitP, she still has her torps, and During the final battle with the Bismark, the Rodney fired 2 torpedoes at her (none hit), and became the first and only battleship in history to fire her torpedoes in combat.

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/22/2004 11:30:06 PM

PeteG662

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I assume you will let us know when it is out and posted on Spookys?????

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/22/2004 11:30:40 PM

Tankerace

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LOL, yup.

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/22/2004 11:59:43 PM

Skyros

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So, when you wrap this up how about following up with Russo Japanese War

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/23/2004 12:00:49 AM

Tankerace

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I make no promises to that effect, but I have been planning that when this is released to release new scenarios covering the Battles at Tsushima (Russo-Japanese War) and Manila Bay (Spanish American). But, that is at least a few months in the future.

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/23/2004 12:04:10 AM

Skyros

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Oh to be young and have spare time. Thanks Tanker your efforts are appreciated by all of us.

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/30/2004 7:24:46 PM

CatLord

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Just for my personnal culture:

I have seen a book today named "War Plan Orange: United States Strategy to Defeat Japan, 1897-1945" by Es Miller.

Is that the best book on this subject (if I want to read only one out of curiosity ?) or do you have another to recommend ?

Cat

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 11/30/2004 10:32:00 PM

Tankerace

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Personally, from what I have seen and heard, it is the best book on the subject. I'd still read other works, but I know I want to buy it (kinda strapped for cash at the moment).

The thing to understand about the Orange Plans (all three of them) is that the first and the second were plausible (War Plan Orange - 1 from about 1897-1920 and War Plan Orange - 3, late 1920s-end of World War II). In fact, War Plan Orange -3 was used to help determine the counteroffensive strategy during World War II.

War Plan Orange -2, which this mod will be using, bordered on fantasy thanks to the Washington Naval Treaty. The plan was, upon declaration of war, the American fleet would sail from San Diego to the Phillippines, refueling at Pearl Harbor, Wake, Guam, and finally Manila. Upon arriving at the Phillippines, the fleet would form a battleline, and blockade the Japanese home islands, and make it impossible to attack the PI, or any resource area. So, the Japanese would be faced with one of two possibilities (in theory):

1: Keep your fleet at bay, and try to run the blockade with small ships.

2: Form your fleet, and seek battle with the American Battleline.

If the Japanese took option 1, eventually (again, in theory) they would starve, and be forced to sue for peace.

If the Japanese took option 2, their fleet would (according to the plan) be destroyed by the larger numbers of American ships.

The Washington Naval Treaty, despite helping ensure number 2's success (The infamous 5:5:3 ratio), invalidated the success of the plan. The Plan bordered on fantasy, because the scrapping of most of the fleet rendered a successful blockade all but impossible, and with limits on battleship and carrier construction, left the fleet vulnearble to air attack (Say, at Guam when refueling).

Since this mod assumes that the Washington Naval Treay did not happen, it is therefore possible that War Plan Orange -2 might have succeeded.

Another really good one is:

Plans for War Against the British Empire and Japan: The Red, Orange, and Red-Orange Plans, 1823-1938 (American War Plans, 1919-1941, Vol 2) by Steven T. Ross

This is a very good book, because it shows just what was being thought after World War I. Plan Red, a naval war against Canada, Britain, and Australia; Plan Orange a naval War against Japan; and Red-Orange, a naval war against The British Commonwealth and Japan. Very tricky stuff.

Though I make no promises, I may have a Red-Orange scenario variant after the release of the main mod.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 11/30/2004 2:36:00 PM >

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 12/1/2004 1:17:28 AM

CatLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Personally, from what I have seen and heard, it is the best book on the subject. I'd still read other works, but I know I want to buy it (kinda strapped for cash at the moment).

OK, thanks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Another really good one is:

Plans for War Against the British Empire and Japan: The Red, Orange, and Red-Orange Plans, 1823-1938 (American War Plans, 1919-1941, Vol 2) by Steven T. Ross

I can't find this one, but a paperback on the subject by the same author is available in the UK:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0714682705/qid=1101856531/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8_8/202-0036730-5579832

It's probably good enough if I don't want to dwell too much in the subject. I may have a look

Thanks again,

Cat

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 12/1/2004 6:13:54 AM

Desertmole

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Tankerace, have you ever read Great Pacific War By Hector Bywater? Interesting book written in 1925 on a fictional war in the 1931-33 timeframe. Bywater was a former agent for British Naval Intelligence (are they ever really former?) and a naval correspondent for several US and British newspapers and periodicals. About 10-15 years ago a fellow named Honan wrote a biography on him, and also had GPW republished. Honan had two theories the first was that the Japanese based all their war plans on Bywaters works (he wrote two Pacific strategy books in addition to GPW) and secondly that the Japanese murdered Bywater in 1940 because he understood their plans and was a threat to them.

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 12/1/2004 9:34:04 AM

Jorm

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Hi there i have read some of this book by Bywater
Its not very good and i doubt it will assist Tanker in his grand endevour. Perhaps to clarify, its not that its a bad book its just that it has not aged well
a vastly better book is "War Plan Orange: United States Strategy to Defeat Japan, 1897-1945" by Es Miller which im rereading now and if tanker can get a copy i think it will assist him greatly in when he gets to the scenario editor part of the MOD, either way , its a fasinating period of "what if" history that im keen to get to explore through Tankers manifestation of WPO.

cheers
Paul

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 12/1/2004 9:48:10 AM

Tankerace

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I'm using a great variety of sources to complete this work. However, those strategies will be more useful to you, the player, than me, the designer. I give you the tools, you do the strategy.

Some of this mod will be ahistorical. I can find the locations and homeports of all the major ships, but references to submarines and Destroyers in this period are lacking. What this means is that in San Diego you will have fifty 4 stack destroyers in reserve, just as in history. However, the probably won't be the same fifty that were actually there.

Bywaters book is a fascinating read, but I honestly don't think it could help. I too am very excited about playing this project. it will be interesting reads in the AAR section of convoy battles, or the grand "Jutlandesque" showdown of forces.

One thing I am trying to do is to accurately model the ship classes. For instance, instead of giving you 1 generic graphic and 1 generic "V and W" class British destroyer, you are instead getting 8 different classes, complete with 8 different graphics. That for the moment is my key aim. For the scenarios, I am going to put LCUs and ships where they were historically. It is up to you the player to execute War Plan Orange, or make up a plan of your own.

On those 8 classes, for those interested, here they are:

Admiralty V Class
Thornycroft V Class (Same as above, but different layout, 3-4", and Thornycroft Funnels)
Admiralty W Class (Same as V, but 6 TT instead of 4)
Thornycroft W Class (Same as Thorny V, with same differences as Adm. V)
Admiralty V Leader Class (Same as regular Adm. V, but different layout and fitted as a Destroyer leader)
Admiralty Modified V Class (Same as Adm. V, but 4-4.7" instead of 4-4")
Admiralty Modified W Class (Same as Adm. Mod V, with differences of regular Adm. W)
Thornycroft Modified W Class (Same as Admiralty Mod. W)

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 12/1/2004 1:50:03 AM >

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 12/2/2004 1:00:51 AM

jcjordan

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Great art files & effort put into them but one thing is missing from the gunboats - Richard Crenna & Steve McQueen

. Will be looking forward to it to try it out.

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RE: War Plan Orange Mod: More New Screens - 12/2/2004 3:42:57 AM

Tankerace

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Sorry guys, I know I promised an update today, but I just finished doing all British cruisers and destroyers, in classes, graphics, and individual ships, so I am a little tired. I'll put one up on Friday. If I can get some more work done, I'll even put up some battle screens.

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