Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

KPAX,

If its our game, the ideal mix is 1 CV and 10 TK per TF

"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)



Thanks !!

KPAX

quote:

Tell you what, will met your 1 CV and 10 TK per TF with my 1 CV and 10 TK per TF near PH. It is a lovely spot, great beaches and the women ..... wow .....

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

Tell you what, will met your 1 CV and 10 TK per TF with my 1 CV and 10 TK per TF near PH. It is a lovely spot, great beaches and the women ..... wow .....

Just as long as you leave those damn pigbot at home, I'll think about it

"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)



Thanks !!

KPAX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Oh, and I keep an eye on the total AA and total ASW. I try to keep those roughly (not fanatically) equal between the two/three such 15 ship TFs which are operating together.

"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)



Thanks !!

KPAX

quote:

Not sure that I completely understand this, though.........

Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: coralsaw

Great post Oznoyng, one for the Strategy Guide.

/coralsaw

"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)



Thanks !!

KPAX

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

If I am putting a Killer group together, I do not put CVE's in with my CV's. They are just to slow. I usually use the CVE's as an airshield for my transports. I have taken to pulling the FM-2's and the Torpedoe planes off of one CVE in the group and replacing it with an F4U- or F6F group for pure fleet protection. the Other CVE's I have in the group, usually one more at minimum, I leave as is. I use the FM2's or F4FX as extra CAP and the 8 torpedo planes for ASW. Other Makeup in CVE groups will be nothing larger than a CL and usually only one of those. In My CV groups I try not to put CA's in the group. I load it up with DD's and a few De's. I try not to place more than two CV's in the same TF, so it woudl be 2 CV's, 8 DD's and 5 DE's. I may toss a CLAA in when they show up in place of a DD. This configuration gives me a good AA battery, screens me against smaller ships and protects well from Subs. I do task a SCTF along with my CV groups if there is any chance of a Surface force Encounter that my DD's would not handle. THis is where I make a CA TG. This woudl be 2 or 3 CA's 4 CL's and 6 or 7 DD/DE. I do not place BB's in these groups since I use them for Bombardment missions. They woudl get tere own TF and woudl also tag along.

UB

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

If I am putting a Killer group together, I do not put CVE's in with my CV's. They are just to slow. I usually use the CVE's as an airshield for my transports. I have taken to pulling the FM-2's and the Torpedoe planes off of one CVE in the group and replacing it with an F4U- or F6F group for pure fleet protection. the Other CVE's I have in the group, usually one more at minimum, I leave as is. I use the FM2's or F4FX as extra CAP and the 8 torpedo planes for ASW. Other Makeup in CVE groups will be nothing larger than a CL and usually only one of those. In My CV groups I try not to put CA's in the group. I load it up with DD's and a few De's. I try not to place more than two CV's in the same TF, so it woudl be 2 CV's, 8 DD's and 5 DE's. I may toss a CLAA in when they show up in place of a DD. This configuration gives me a good AA battery, screens me against smaller ships and protects well from Subs. I do task a SCTF along with my CV groups if there is any chance of a Surface force Encounter that my DD's would not handle. THis is where I make a CA TG. This woudl be 2 or 3 CA's 4 CL's and 6 or 7 DD/DE. I do not place BB's in these groups since I use them for Bombardment missions. They woudl get tere own TF and woudl also tag along.

UB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I don't have a great answer for you, since I am still playing with it. However, here are some things to think about. All of my analysis comes from the perspective of Japan, so don't automatically apply these thoughts to the Allies.

One task force or multiple?

When a strike is launched by carriers it can only hit one target (task force), but CAP and strikes from all the ships in a hex generally combine. Therefore, it is beneficial for carriers to be split up into multiple TF's.

However, escorts from one TF do not protect other task forces from submarines. Therefore, you have to balance the need for strong ASW assets with the need to diversify your risk to your carriers.

Their is also a rule associated with TF coordination for carriers. The maximum number of planes that can be in a strike are determined by a formula. For Japan iirc, the number is 200 + rnd(100) which means 200 planes plus a random number between 1 and 100. For the Allies, the number is different. I think it is 100 + rnd(100) to start, but gets bigger as the war years progress. So, you want to look that rule up and make sure you don't end up with aircraft not utilized because they exceed that limit.

Finally, seperate TF's all have their own commander - which means that you are going to have lesser men in command the more you split into TF's. You have about 4 high quality Air Combat TF commanders at the start as Japan (nagumo, Uamaguchi, Abe, and another I can;t recall the name of atm). The effect of different commanders this is two-fold. The ships and aircraft in the TF of the lesser commander will not perform as well as if they were under the better commander. Also, the TF's will react to enemy differently, so your TF could end up in different hexes leaving your TF's with sharply reduced CAP.

How I use my ships as Japan:
CV - air combat TF's
CVL - air combet TF with CV's
CVE - the speed on these guys relegates them to escort duties. I use them to escort transport and invasion TF's in areas where Allied planes could attack.
CS - Chiyoda and Chitose go into my ACTF's after I load them up with range 7 Alfs on Naval Search. Mizuho and Nisshin go into oil convoys with aircraft on ASW.
BB - the fast two go into CV TF's, the rest are SAG/bombardment groups.
CA - these go into ACTF's, invasion TF's and SAG/Bombardment TF's. CA's seem to be the best ship for sending in with the AP's because they can counterbattery without getting sunk like a DD or CL. They also have high AA and high speed, so they go into ACTF's. .
CL - Kitakami and Oi go into ACTF's, the rest go into FT TF's and invasion TF's. I will also use them in transport TF's if they have a float plane.
DD - Really depends upon the class: Mutsuki - ACTF, Tomodzuru - FT, Yugumo - ACTF, Asashio - ACTF, Kagero - ACTF and SAG's, Shimakaze - SAG, Ootori - FT, Shiratsuyu - SAG, Akatsuki - SAG, Hatsuharu - transport escort, Fubuki - transport escort, Minekaze - FT, Kamikaze - FT (ACTF after refit), Wakatake - FT, Momi - FT.
APD - TK escorts. High AA and 10 DC racks on each of em.
PG - long range transport TF escorts leavened with MSW's and a few DD's
PC - short range transport TF escorts and ASW hunter-killer groups. Leavened by a few DD's and some MSW's.
MSW (W.1 through W.20) - Tanker escorts
MSW (all others) - escorts for all types of transport TF's.

What to put in ACTF's?
For each ship in a TF over 15, you get diminishing returns from AA. So, having more than 15 ships in a TF means the extra ships will be less protected. You should not take that to mean never have more than 15 in a TF, just understand that you will get less effect from each ship you add over 15. I put CV, CVL, CS, BB, some CA, DD, and CL(Kitakami and Oi) into Air Combat TF's. For CL's, Kitakami and Oi have radar in early 42.

1. If you have one CV in a taskforce, it will most likely be the target. If you have BB's, CS's, CVL's in the TF with a CV, the attack is likely to split up a bit and try to hit the other ships. The good news is that means less likely hits on your CV. The bad news is that the other ships might get hit. Since I would rather lose anything else to save a carrier, I generally leaven my TF's with other high priority targets.

2. A priority for AC TF's is to have high AA ships in the mix. Generally, the bigger the ship, the better the AA, so fast BB's get put into my CV TF's. I may put a couple CA's in there too because they are good AA platforms, but generally I reserve those guys for invasion TF's. They can safely take fire from most CD units while simultaneously taking the heat off AP's, etc.

3. Another priority is ASW forces. ASW TF's get really effective when they are up around 8 ships and get downright deadly at 15 in my experience so far. I would try to have as many DD's for ASW as I could.

4. Check the speed of the ships you want to put in your TF's. If they can't keep pace with your carriers, they should not be in the TF.

5. You want a minimum of one radar equipped ship in each ACTF. Until mid 42, the only ships that have it are Kitakami and Oi, so I generally place all my CV's into a max of two task forces until mid '42.

6. Pay attention to the endurance of your DD's when choosing escorts. The Tomodzuru class DD looks like a great CV escort because of it's 73 AA rating. However, their endurance of 3000 makes them a drag on the rest of the TF.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I don't have a great answer for you, since I am still playing with it. However, here are some things to think about. All of my analysis comes from the perspective of Japan, so don't automatically apply these thoughts to the Allies.

One task force or multiple?

When a strike is launched by carriers it can only hit one target (task force), but CAP and strikes from all the ships in a hex generally combine. Therefore, it is beneficial for carriers to be split up into multiple TF's.

However, escorts from one TF do not protect other task forces from submarines. Therefore, you have to balance the need for strong ASW assets with the need to diversify your risk to your carriers.

Their is also a rule associated with TF coordination for carriers. The maximum number of planes that can be in a strike are determined by a formula. For Japan iirc, the number is 200 + rnd(100) which means 200 planes plus a random number between 1 and 100. For the Allies, the number is different. I think it is 100 + rnd(100) to start, but gets bigger as the war years progress. So, you want to look that rule up and make sure you don't end up with aircraft not utilized because they exceed that limit.

Finally, seperate TF's all have their own commander - which means that you are going to have lesser men in command the more you split into TF's. You have about 4 high quality Air Combat TF commanders at the start as Japan (nagumo, Uamaguchi, Abe, and another I can;t recall the name of atm). The effect of different commanders this is two-fold. The ships and aircraft in the TF of the lesser commander will not perform as well as if they were under the better commander. Also, the TF's will react to enemy differently, so your TF could end up in different hexes leaving your TF's with sharply reduced CAP.

How I use my ships as Japan:
CV - air combat TF's
CVL - air combet TF with CV's
CVE - the speed on these guys relegates them to escort duties. I use them to escort transport and invasion TF's in areas where Allied planes could attack.
CS - Chiyoda and Chitose go into my ACTF's after I load them up with range 7 Alfs on Naval Search. Mizuho and Nisshin go into oil convoys with aircraft on ASW.
BB - the fast two go into CV TF's, the rest are SAG/bombardment groups.
CA - these go into ACTF's, invasion TF's and SAG/Bombardment TF's. CA's seem to be the best ship for sending in with the AP's because they can counterbattery without getting sunk like a DD or CL. They also have high AA and high speed, so they go into ACTF's. .
CL - Kitakami and Oi go into ACTF's, the rest go into FT TF's and invasion TF's. I will also use them in transport TF's if they have a float plane.
DD - Really depends upon the class: Mutsuki - ACTF, Tomodzuru - FT, Yugumo - ACTF, Asashio - ACTF, Kagero - ACTF and SAG's, Shimakaze - SAG, Ootori - FT, Shiratsuyu - SAG, Akatsuki - SAG, Hatsuharu - transport escort, Fubuki - transport escort, Minekaze - FT, Kamikaze - FT (ACTF after refit), Wakatake - FT, Momi - FT.
APD - TK escorts. High AA and 10 DC racks on each of em.
PG - long range transport TF escorts leavened with MSW's and a few DD's
PC - short range transport TF escorts and ASW hunter-killer groups. Leavened by a few DD's and some MSW's.
MSW (W.1 through W.20) - Tanker escorts
MSW (all others) - escorts for all types of transport TF's.

What to put in ACTF's?
For each ship in a TF over 15, you get diminishing returns from AA. So, having more than 15 ships in a TF means the extra ships will be less protected. You should not take that to mean never have more than 15 in a TF, just understand that you will get less effect from each ship you add over 15. I put CV, CVL, CS, BB, some CA, DD, and CL(Kitakami and Oi) into Air Combat TF's. For CL's, Kitakami and Oi have radar in early 42.

1. If you have one CV in a taskforce, it will most likely be the target. If you have BB's, CS's, CVL's in the TF with a CV, the attack is likely to split up a bit and try to hit the other ships. The good news is that means less likely hits on your CV. The bad news is that the other ships might get hit. Since I would rather lose anything else to save a carrier, I generally leaven my TF's with other high priority targets.

2. A priority for AC TF's is to have high AA ships in the mix. Generally, the bigger the ship, the better the AA, so fast BB's get put into my CV TF's. I may put a couple CA's in there too because they are good AA platforms, but generally I reserve those guys for invasion TF's. They can safely take fire from most CD units while simultaneously taking the heat off AP's, etc.

3. Another priority is ASW forces. ASW TF's get really effective when they are up around 8 ships and get downright deadly at 15 in my experience so far. I would try to have as many DD's for ASW as I could.

4. Check the speed of the ships you want to put in your TF's. If they can't keep pace with your carriers, they should not be in the TF.

5. You want a minimum of one radar equipped ship in each ACTF. Until mid 42, the only ships that have it are Kitakami and Oi, so I generally place all my CV's into a max of two task forces until mid '42.

6. Pay attention to the endurance of your DD's when choosing escorts. The Tomodzuru class DD looks like a great CV escort because of it's 73 AA rating. However, their endurance of 3000 makes them a drag on the rest of the TF.

Why would you get diminishing returns for AA for TFs over 15 ships? Is some assumption being made that all ships can't be firing at an incoming raid? How novel! I wonder why all ASW ships get a crack at a sub?

quote:

ORIGINAL: grumpyman

Say I put my carriers in multiple TFs.  One CV per TF.  How do I set my fighters for the best balance of CAP for CV vs. escorts for bombers?