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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Reducing Fort Levels

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Reducing Fort Levels - 11/18/2004 10:29:49 PM

UncleBuck

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Hey I have a quick question that I hope developes some long answers.

I am working on reducing fortification levels. Is there any way to reduce them other than LCU attacks? I have been bombing and bombarding several bases for over a month and when I land, they have fort levles of 7+. I know that Bombing and Bombarding reduces effectivness of the LCU's but how can you reduce fort levels without commiting suicide on the rampart?

UB

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/18/2004 10:31:10 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Is there any way to reduce them other than LCU attacks?
UB

No.

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/18/2004 10:43:24 PM

Feinder

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The only way is to bring engineers. And you have to at least get a 1-1 attack (I'm pretty sure 0-1 attacks won't reduce the fort levels). Also something I didn't realize (because I rarely use them), is that shock attacks will reduce the fort level, for each odds table above one that you get. So if you get 6-1 odds in a Shock attack, you'll reduce the fort level by 6(!) in the one attack. Whereas, if you had 6-1 Deliberate attack, you'd only reduce the forts by 1 after the attack.

And you probably realize that you need (fort level + 2) to win. So fort level 0 means you need 2 - 1 odds to force the retreat. At fort level 4, you need 6 - 1 odds to force the retreat.

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 11/18/2004 3:43:24 PM >

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/18/2004 11:01:03 PM

RUPD3658

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Sometimes engineers will reduce the fort level even in 0 to 1 attacks so the more you can have in the attack the better.

I usually save the shock attack until I have the fort down to level 2 or 3 and have achieved 1-1 odds for a few turns. The shock attack is great for the final push but almost suicidal if you are repeatedly getting 0-1 odds on a deliberate assault.

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 12:36:07 AM

Onime No Kyo

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Which is why the Chinese will always be SOL. I have had cases where I had a 4:1 superiority in manpower, but the result is always the same: I lose 10 times the people the Japs lose. And this is with only a level 4 entrenchment.

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 5:18:34 PM

UncleBuck

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This is what I was afraid of. Oh well, I was hoping that someone would say, "Yes if you do X it will reduce the fortifications." Oh well. I guess I will just keep smashing my troops agianst teh Ramparts. Cold Harbor anyone?

UB

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 5:55:34 PM

Feinder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Which is why the Chinese will always be SOL. I have had cases where I had a 4:1 superiority in manpower, but the result is always the same: I lose 10 times the people the Japs lose. And this is with only a level 4 entrenchment.

Hm. Just a thot.

Do RAF Base Forces (not HQs) help in an attack to reduce forts, like engineers do? (seeing as they are and ENG unit, and -do- eventually get supporting assault squads).
Not sure tho, anybody used them like that?

If so, you might airlift some of them into China. The RN Base Forces are too heavy, you'd end up leaving most of their guns behind. But the RAF Base Forces are lighter, and you could probably airlift most of the unit.

Marching would obviously take too long, but if you can air-tran them, you'd actually get them into theater. I end up with a few extra RAF BFs, so is perhaps using them as assault engineers an option? (esp since UK doesn't get very many assault engineers anyways).

Just wondering, haven't tried it.
-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 11/19/2004 10:55:40 AM >

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 6:26:21 PM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Hm. Just a thot.

Do RAF Base Forces (not HQs) help in an attack to reduce forts, like engineers do? (seeing as they are and ENG unit, and -do- eventually get supporting assault squads).
Not sure tho, anybody used them like that?

If so, you might airlift some of them into China. The RN Base Forces are too heavy, you'd end up leaving most of their guns behind. But the RAF Base Forces are lighter, and you could probably airlift most of the unit.

Marching would obviously take too long, but if you can air-tran them, you'd actually get them into theater. I end up with a few extra RAF BFs, so is perhaps using them as assault engineers an option? (esp since UK doesn't get very many assault engineers anyways).

Just wondering, haven't tried it.
-F-

I believe any unit with Engineers help to reduce the fort level - which is why divisions can sometimes reduce fort levels by themselves - they usually have 9 or 10 engineer squads with them.. But the more the merrier for this - bring those Eng Rgts that have like 40 eng squads to the battle - they have an assault point of around 35 and are good at killing forts as well as building them.

Xargun

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 6:54:01 PM

Nikademus

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to reitterate, to reduce fort levels you have to attack (with LCU's). ENG units that are present increase your chances of reducing a Fort level and can even reduce a 2nd additional fort level in the same attack.

Bombardment attacks from air or sea or land will not reduce fort levels

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 7:03:33 PM

Captain Cruft

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Nikademus has told all. However ...

If you want to stop fort levels re-generating attack the port/airfield. All base damage has to be repaired before anything gets built.

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 7:29:29 PM

PeteG662

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One thing I have done and it works in places like Hong Kong is to bombard with arty and LCUs while deliberate attack by an engineer unit. It reduces the fort level and you take few casualties doing so.

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 7:36:27 PM

UncleBuck

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I will have to try that. Does it work with all engineers? I mean can I use ne of teh BAZILLION CB units I have in 1944/45?

UB

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 8:35:56 PM

Nikademus

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sounds like another loophole.

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 8:46:35 PM

Bradley7735

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Nik,

There's another loophole (I think). When you land small lcu's (sub or DD's worth), the enemy will bombard on the first turn (allowing the player to see the exact forces involved). But, the next turn the DD or Sub can pick up the LCU and flee with very little loss.

In reality, that recon force would be all captured/killed. I'm not 100% sure it works this way, but I read that someone does that.

bc

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 8:48:32 PM

Feinder

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What's the loophole Nik? The CB units (what a CB unit, you mean CD?), or sending in ENG units alone?

-F-

(* Why would sending ENG units in alone a loophole? Seems that they'd probably take fairly high casualties, and certainly keep impaling themselves against a Fort Level 4 withou becoming totally disrupted *).

< Message edited by Feinder -- 11/19/2004 1:50:16 PM >

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 8:55:56 PM

Nikademus

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if ENG units can attack alone, take acceptible casualties and reduce fort levels without a combined effort (which i believe was the designer's intent) from all the INF and/or ARM LCU's in the hex, (thus saving them casualites, disablements and disruption) then thats a loophole.

ENG units were intended in the game to provide an enhancement to ordinary LCU's attacking a fixed defensive position, not as a cheap means to reduce fort levels without having to pay the price for doing so.

I was previously under the impression that the game engine automatically assaulted with all present combat capable units whether or not the player set them all to attack or not. I'm positive this was the case in early WitP and UV days. If it was changed it was either un-mentioned or unintended.

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 8:59:59 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

(* Why would sending ENG units in alone a loophole? Seems that they'd probably take fairly high casualties, and certainly keep impaling themselves against a Fort Level 4 withou becoming totally disrupted *).

We have to remember that, by necessity, land combat is heavily abstracted with players having only so much ability to give orders. In real life a small ENG unit that attacks alone is in most cases without being part of an overall attack would be slaughtered (or should be) Further, the defending WitP player cant counter such a tactic by giving new orders or shifting his defense etc etc to compensate.

The tactic is also ripe for abuse. One poster already mentioned using SEEBEE units in stacking to exploit this potential loophole. I guess that means the Japanese could use Construction batallions too!!

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 9:17:20 PM

UncleBuck

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I don't think it is a loophole. I was just wonderign if teh Engineers in teh Sea Bee (Construction Battalion) units will act as combat engineers? Having worked with them, I know in real life if a Sea Bee unit was in the combat zone, they would have done well as combat engineers, for fixed fortifications, removing mines may have been somehting else.

UB

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 9:42:55 PM

Nikademus

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you'll think it is if you've spent the time and effort to build a strong position and the other player niggles away your fort levels at low cost before attacking. IIRC' the most vocal complaint about fort levels are that they are too easily and quickly reduced

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 10:27:28 PM

UncleBuck

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I do not think that is the case. I see them being reduced only when I have killed or disabled a Much Larger Enemy force. If I have the proper defensive units to defend a position I have seen even poorly supplied troops hold off and punish 3 to 1 odds, for weeks. Get a good Arty LCU, An engineer unit to repair stuff, an HQ, and an Inf. Division and maybe an Arm unit and it is a tough nut to crack if the starting Fort is 7+. Once it goes below 7 however I have seen fort levels go down rapidly.

I think fort levels work such- Level 1, Fox Holes and sand bags, light discipline. Level 2- trenches, and small cleared fire zones., Level 3- Same as two but larger fields of fire and presighted Artillery, barbed wire, Level 4- Add in Sand bag Bunkers, and supply points, Level 5- Some Concrete or hardened positions, Level 6- More hardened positions, and the beginnings of interlocked defensive fire, Level 7- Interlocked fire and large field of fire, good communications and spotting Level 8 Almost all hardened positions, good supply and communication. Level 9 All Hardened positions, excellent communication, completely integrated defensive strategy, efficient reserve positions and ammo supplies.

But hey I could be all wrong.

UB

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 10:34:22 PM

PeteG662

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Try this for yourself Nik playing Japanese vs Allied AI at Hong Kong. You have an Engineer Bde there that you can move into HK along with 38 Div and the Arty units. Put all on bombard and give the Eng Bde a deliberate attack. Even at 0 to 1 odds it can reduce the fortification level.

While this can be gamey it can also simulate the sappers clearing away the fortifications in preparation for the main attack under covering fire of the bombardments.

Pete

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 10:41:34 PM

Feinder

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Well, in that sort of case, I think the combat engineers should take some SERIOUS casualties. HK fort level is what? 6? Considering the investment of time and supplies, and I'm all for making it a bit harder and more dangerous to attack a heavily fortified position. Let's say you manage to build up Rabaul to a Level 9 fortification. That's tantamount to Maginot I would expect (max in game at least). If anything hits that Level 9 fort, it should take losses comiserate.

But if you can that you can reduce that Level 9 for to a bunch of sand in just a week of attacks by a single Btn of ENG...? Doesn't that seem peculiar? Id make it that you had to ad least achieve 2 - 1 odds (with all modifiers) in order to reduce the fort at all. That means if you decide to impale the little ENG Btn, it'll do exactly that. Die. You (should) need a coordinated attack to reduce the fortifications. You're going to suffer casualties, and you can't bring down 6000 determined defenders who have been digging in for 4 months, with just a Btn of engineers.

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 10:52:04 PM

PeteG662

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I understand your points and agree with you. I am just pointing out what is happening in my game. It was a Jap Eng BDE on the deliberate attack and yes it is a level 6 fort IIRC.

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 11:45:51 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Try this for yourself Nik playing Japanese vs Allied AI at Hong Kong. You have an Engineer Bde there that you can move into HK along with 38 Div and the Arty units. Put all on bombard and give the Eng Bde a deliberate attack. Even at 0 to 1 odds it can reduce the fortification level.

I plan too....

quote:

While this can be gamey it can also simulate the sappers clearing away the fortifications in preparation for the main attack under covering fire of the bombardments.

If this were a smaller scale tactical game where the players have more intricate control over how their forces fight and are deployed (within the area abstractly represented by the sixty mile hexes in WitP), i'd agree. At this scale.....looks like a big loophole that will devalue fort levels.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 11/19/2004 9:46:15 PM >

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 11:52:50 PM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Well, in that sort of case, I think the combat engineers should take some SERIOUS casualties. HK fort level is what? 6? Considering the investment of time and supplies, and I'm all for making it a bit harder and more dangerous to attack a heavily fortified position. Let's say you manage to build up Rabaul to a Level 9 fortification. That's tantamount to Maginot I would expect (max in game at least). If anything hits that Level 9 fort, it should take losses comiserate.

But if you can that you can reduce that Level 9 for to a bunch of sand in just a week of attacks by a single Btn of ENG...? Doesn't that seem peculiar? Id make it that you had to ad least achieve 2 - 1 odds (with all modifiers) in order to reduce the fort at all. That means if you decide to impale the little ENG Btn, it'll do exactly that. Die. You (should) need a coordinated attack to reduce the fortifications. You're going to suffer casualties, and you can't bring down 6000 determined defenders who have been digging in for 4 months, with just a Btn of engineers.

Well you are talking about a level 9 fort being a tough nut to crack.. That is true, but the true measure of a fort is not its defenses, but the men defending them.. If you have 2000 men defending a level 9 fort its not that great compared to 8000 men defending a level 8 fort... If you are defending with small numbers of men then the attacker will take heavy losses in the first wave, and then run right over you with a human wave attack..

A fort level should just add a multiplier to the attack value (basic modifer) and defense value (much bigger bonus) of the defending units thats it... AND it should only apply that to so many units (according to its size)... But right now I believe it applies its bonuses to ALL units in the base no matter what.. So I can have 300k men in a level 2 fort with no problems (unrealistic) and with all of them recieving the same benefits.

I think forts are fine.. I have seen them go quickly, but many times I attack with 2:1 or better odds against level 3-5 forts with 40,000+ men and never reduce the fort level. So I feel it is fine the way it is... Also, in real life naval, air and arty bombardments could destroy forts - that is its purpose - to demoralize the enemy and destroy its defensive fortifications before the troops attack.

Without seeing the exact way it works and knowing the exact bonuses for forts its hard to say whether it is appropriate either way...

Xargun

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/19/2004 11:56:49 PM

freeboy

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seems my best bet is engeneirs for reduction

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/20/2004 2:54:01 AM

byron13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Hm. Just a thot.

Do RAF Base Forces (not HQs) help in an attack to reduce forts, like engineers do? (seeing as they are and ENG unit, and -do- eventually get supporting assault squads).
Not sure tho, anybody used them like that?

If so, you might airlift some of them into China. The RN Base Forces are too heavy, you'd end up leaving most of their guns behind. But the RAF Base Forces are lighter, and you could probably airlift most of the unit.

Marching would obviously take too long, but if you can air-tran them, you'd actually get them into theater. I end up with a few extra RAF BFs, so is perhaps using them as assault engineers an option? (esp since UK doesn't get very many assault engineers anyways).

Just wondering, haven't tried it.
-F-

I believe any unit with Engineers help to reduce the fort level - which is why divisions can sometimes reduce fort levels by themselves - they usually have 9 or 10 engineer squads with them.. But the more the merrier for this - bring those Eng Rgts that have like 40 eng squads to the battle - they have an assault point of around 35 and are good at killing forts as well as building them.

Xargun

I don't have the rules with me, but I was under the impression that only engineer squads could reduce fortifications. There is a distinction between engineers and engineer squads, or at least they're listed differently on unit totals on the units screen. Engineer regiments or battalions have squads, as do divisions. Aviation bases only have engineers. I thought the difference is that squads are combat engineers that have sapper capacity, while engineers are more rear-area REMF types with a couple of dozers, jackhammers, shovels, and the like. Under this theory, an aviation base forces could NOT reduce a fortification.

Am I wrong?

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RE: Reducing Fort Levels - 11/20/2004 3:43:34 AM

Graycompany

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according to page 141 rule 8.1.3 "Combat engineer units differ from regular engineer units in that they have an extra name added to their name (e.g. IJA Engineer Squad). Combat Engineers can also destroy enemy fortifications during combat."

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