Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Barbu

I'd say the surprise effect is very questionable, unless the quality of the oppositon is pretty weak. A serious opponent of Prussia can make a fair guesstimate of the force they are expecting to encounter.

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Beyond some meager maintance and supply savings, there is very little reason for saving up manpower. Saved up manpower means delayed reinforcements, which is a greater problem than the ability to "suprise" your opponent is an advantage. If you're at peace, you can convert militia. If you're at war, chances are you'll want the reinforcements *NOW* as militia rather than save them up for infantry in 6 months or cavalry in 8 should you get the funding. 6 months is an awfully long time to wait for a "maybe" (funds) in a war - they are often over before that.

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ORIGINAL: Titi


I disagree on this, having one or more corps appearing near the border in a national bypassed city is enough either to force france to move first ans so losing the double move bonus or either destroying a supply line and putting an end to an invasion plan.

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You have militia that may appear the first month, infantry the third and cavalry between then after. And those are mobile if in a corps. That simple threat is enough to force the invading power, often France to turn the invasion into a long battle of siege and prussia has a lot of fortress.

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So it can't be a bliezkrieg campaign against Prussia except maybe for Austria; even more if main prussian army is refusing batlle and retreating. That force France to advance far into Prussia and leave mainland France more open for backstab, even more if GB transport those fleeing Prussian corps.

France can hurt Prussia but with the ability to store MP, Prussia with some help (GB) can stay for a very long fight, what France isn't wanting. Another country invaded won't have more than ten steps to do this trick, and once done can't do it for another three months.

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ORIGINAL: Barbu

Prussia isn't Russia. The whole country is about 6 areas wide at it's largest, and the first few cities facing France are all capitals that will have to be occupied.

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What's more, a threat like this on the supply lines isn't much different than dropping a corps with a few factors.

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I also find it very questionable to save up manpower for the hypothetical situation where the french would bypass border cities, along with the fact that what it may accomplish if he does is still unkown. Better to have these troops ready to deal with the invasion in the first place.

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I guess you misread what I meant. In your example you aren't saving up manpower, you are spending it. If you are going to spend it, do it BEFORE the war, not after it started. Delayed reinforcements is a bad thing, except for a few factors to drop behind supply lines if he makes the mistake of ignoring some cities. But you don't need many of them, and if you do drop a large contingent, then it becomes a valuable target to destroy and you achieve even less.

Let's just say we disagree there. I just don't agree that saved up manpower and delayed reinforcements will do anything to help Prussia against a french "blitzkrieg". This simply just doesn't match at all with my gaming experience. What Prussia needs in a situation is the largest and best army it can field up front, and as many friends as possible.

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ORIGINAL: Titi


Partially agree here. Prussia is small but like Russia it's very risky to forage there. And even worse you have so much cities that's you can't trace a supply line without letting a lot of corps behind for sieges and supply security.

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French generally avoid the fortress level 2 facing them, just covering it and try to gain speed and some forage by moving in the south by saxony. The coast is full of ports, small fortress and maybe the threat of a landing. It's not the best way to move and maintain a supply line for an invader securely.

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But it's exactly what a french player want by attacking Prussia. A lot of corps to grab a maximum of PP by land victories. Having a full army against a french invasion is just the best way to be defeated. The only hope of Prussia is his allies. And if french declare a war, it's cause they have a mandatory peace with Napoleon or are busy elsewhere.
What will prevent the french invasion is rather promise of few PP by land battles and a very long and costly war sucking la grande armée deep in Prussia.

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ORIGINAL: ktotwf

Could someone explain all of this in plain English for me? I am not quite following the debate here.

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ORIGINAL: Barbu
The cost of the economic manipulation should be in line with the country's power, for money and manpower. If you look at the VP requirements for the 1805-1815 scenario, Prussia is 5th, so the cost for manipulation should be 5th as well. Right now if I am not mistaken (my EIA stuff is at my friend's place so I can't verify), it's 3rd for money cost and 2nd for manpower. Regardless of how useful saving up manpower is for Prussia, this essentially means that Prussia is going to be able to manipulate less than other countries, making the option a serious disadvantage for the prussian player. Simple resource in resource out calculation, considering Prussia's victory conditions and relative strength.

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ORIGINAL: megalomania2003

NO!
Remember that for the weakest contries manipulation (or victory in battle) is relative more useful EXACTLY because they do not need so many victory points. Prussia staying at 8 the whole game will have a very good position (if they do not win outright) while France staying at 9 will not win any game.

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ORIGINAL: Barbu
Make no mistake about what I am saying. I am not saying that all countries should be able to manipulate as often. Clearly the stronger countries such as France or GB or Russia should be able to manipulate more often, given their higher victory conditions.

I am saying that the cost of manipulation for Prussia is not in line with their relative strength even considering their lower victory points requirements.

In other words, Prussia has a better chance of winning a game without economic manipulation than with, because the cost of economic manipulation is out of line with Prussia's power. It shouldn't cost more to manipulate for Prussia than for GB, Rs or As, EVEN considering the lower victory points requirements.

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I am saying that the cost of manipulation for Prussia is not in line with their relative strength even considering their lower victory points requirements.

In other words, Prussia has a better chance of winning a game without economic manipulation than with, because the cost of economic manipulation is out of line with Prussia's power. It shouldn't cost more to manipulate for Prussia than for GB, Rs or As, EVEN considering the lower victory points requirements.

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ORIGINAL: Barbu

[For sure, but wether you invade Prussia or Spain or Turkey it's the same: If you're not securing every significant city with a garrison, you're asking for trouble.

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Though there are some subtleties to consider when invading Prussia, the basics is that it's probably still the easiest country to invade, being small and flat, and the other basics that you would apply at invading ANY other major power will still apply: at the very least besiege any city that could be used as a reinforcement point where it would be a major annoyance to you.

And no, a good french player is not going to "avoid" Magdeburg. He's going to start the siege ASAP if he has an available corps so that at the very least the garrison can start to starve as early as possible.

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ORIGINAL: Titi
We disagree here, for Spain or Turkey you only need to secure cities near your supply line and they are very few. In Prussia if you just look at Berlin, there is only one area out of the 6 adjacents that isn't a city. Make a lot more sieges for being able to trace a supply path above those.
However, it still depend of what you are looking for when entering the country.

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If part of the Prussian army is staying at Theresanstad in the Austrian moutains, you will need to be very cautious when invading.
Pursuing the prussian army to East Prussia is a very long campaign.

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Prussia when well defended and with support of other nations can be a nighmare and the manpower saving is just a part of it. Probably as bas as Spain. Infantry in guarisson on the map can't be the same threat IMHO.
A threat off map is far worse that one on map.