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Minimizing Casualties - 11/13/2004 7:38:56 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		This is a primary concern of mine in every battle I fight. This is only a wargame, yes, but, you, as the A0, are still responsible for the men you are commanding. My level of immersion goes down to giving each unit commander a name that I choose. In this way, I, as battalion commander, know these men's names, and know their capabilities via the experience levels. I fight as a Marine Battalion Commander, and I expect that I will suffer losses. However, I fully subscribe to the notion that expending bullets is preferable to expending lives. This may seem either quaint or just odd to most of you guys, but I get into the game as if these were real men, and I conduct battles as if it were the real thing, even though its an abstract representation. I don't know if you guys fight this way in your vs AI or PBEM battles. Maybe I just take it too seriously, but I regard wargaming as serious business. It is fun, no doubt, but it is by no means light-hearted. Forget the problem-solving aspects --at the level of SPWaW, it is simply about killing the enemy and reaching the objectives. War is about the baser instincts of man, and SPWaW allows us to vicariously indulge those instincts.

I suppose this thread is really about why I continue to play wargames and indulge my baser instinct of killing the enemy while protecting my men. Most of us feel the same way, though--we are protecting our troops, our extended family, from intruders. This is our basic instinct, and we allow ourselves to strike out and kill the intruders. The desire to posess their territory is just an extension of that.

I am still trying to define our fascination with wargaming, so this soliliquoy is just another example of my attempt to do so. If you agree or disagree, I'd like to hear some thoughts on the subject.

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/13/2004 8:17:00 AM   
RolandRahn_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 588
Joined: 3/18/2001
From: Beloit, USA
Status: offline 		Hi!

I do mostly agree. Many people post questions about why they receive a draw in a MegaCampaign- or other scenario despite the fact that all enemy is dead/has retreated from the map and all VHs are taken.
It's because they suffered to many losses.
And this should be the case in most times.
But there is a difference between the nations you play.
While the USSR seemed sometimes to regard divisions as assets that are used, expended and than replaced by other divisions, this was not the case with the western powers.
So, when playing the USSR, I tend to be a little historical and regard Stalin's words that quantity is also a form of quality - needless to say that this results in heavy losses.
Or when playing the Japanese, especially late in the war, losses are less relevant - what counts is that you hold a VH or something like that.

To give a small example of what I mean:
Play 'Russian Steel' and M4s 'Kellys Heroes'.
In Russian Steel, you must attempt to be better then the average historical Soviet commander and preserve as many units as you can. Especially it is necessary to rescue bailed out tank crews in order to prevent the loss of their experience.
But in general, you accept that you loose some troops.
So, in Russian Steel, when loosing a quarter of your units, you can still win.
In Kellys heros, in some scenarios the loss of one unit prevents a victory.

And your thoughts are what entices me to favor campaigns over scenarios/sets of scenarios.
I want to be punished for being too lazy in descisions regarding losses, not only by points but also by missing experienced troops in later battles.
And I want to be rewarded for missing the opportunity to kill one or two tanks (or taking a special VH) and allowing the troops to fight another day.

A side effect is, of course, that you are rewarded by sacrifying aux units while saving core units.
I automatically tend to avoid having recon teams in my core force (or I replace them ASAP with something bigger like a cavalry sqd).
And I automatically prefer fewer slowly KVs over T34s in the core force while the T34 and lighter tanks are an enticing option when spending support points.

To summon it:
Your thoughts are correct, the player should always keep this in mind, but what would be regarded as acceptable loss for an USSR force in June 1941 would be a public outcry if it happens to an US force in 1944.

Just my 0.02 Euro,
Roland

(in reply to KG Erwin)
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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/13/2004 9:41:58 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Thanks, Roland. I perhaps unrealistically project modern-day standards upon my American troops, but it would be impolitic to suggest that any other nation placed less value on the lives of their soldiers. I'm not gonna touch that. The casualties suffered in WWII by the major combatants speak for themselves.

I can only speak as an American. Our method of combat is reliance on overwhelming firepower to defeat an opponent, while minimizing loss of life to OUR troops. In SPWaW play, I fully subscribe to that theory.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/13/2004 3:19:23 AM >

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/13/2004 3:54:15 PM   
robot


Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline 		My first battle with the British against the germans in Europe I had a tough time. I managed to get a draw but had a terrible loss of life. My second battle is in north africa against the Italians. I will now pay the price for losing so many men in Germany. I had 3 companys in the first battle. One company of Brits, One company from Canada and one from India. During repair i managed to repair most of my tanks i had lost. This cut me short on replacing a lot of men i had lost. The company from India will not be in this fight to help me as they were almost completely lost in the first battle. I played that battle wrong and suffered too many casualties and will pay for it this time. I will have to play for a draw this time and save as many of my troops as i can. Or i will go further into the whole and will never have a full force again.

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/13/2004 7:59:19 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		Hey gunny have u seen the south park where Cartman breeds a sea monkey Civilization??I take it Mighty serious TOO,all my nanite sized forces running around their little harddrive renderd battlefields SMITEing evil,Need superiour judgement and guidence or my little buddies suffer like ROBOTS,Indian Co. I name the command of my core as myself and even gauge the rest of the battlefield on the progress,suppression/morale,and kills. I believe if I was really in command of these men and machines that I would lead by experience and try to instill faith that by roveing the HQ threw the troops during the engagement, they get more confidence in seeing the BOSS being under fire and maken some kills with them,so that they would fight better and have better capacity to relay the needs and challenges their units require. All good in theory but this is just a game,OOOOHHHHH YYAAA we really do need councelling now EH fellow ADDICTS??!!!! RT

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/13/2004 8:10:02 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Well, Riun, I suppose I qualify as an SPWaW addict. Of course, I have yet to invest in a herringbone twill jacket with "USMC" stenciled on it, so I can really get "in character", but I've actually checked on the prices for reproduction uniform items. Of course, I guess it's not much worse than those guys who get into re-enactments. I know a Civil War re-enactor, and some of those guys are really hardcore. There's one guy who specializes in being able to "bloat" himself like a battlefield corpse. I'm not kidding.

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/13/2004 8:29:47 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Here's a page on WWII USA/USMC reproduction uniforms: http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/ Battlefield re-enacting can be a very expensive hobby. I actually thought about joining a Civil War re-enactment group, but getting "into it" requires a considerable monetary investment.

Can you imagine "Gunny" decked out in something like this? This ensemble costs $180:




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/13/2004 1:35:29 PM >

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/14/2004 3:22:06 PM   
robot


Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline 		When i was flying against the Red Baron i was always decked out. I had the old style leather hat with the gogles attatched. Had the white scarf around my neck and the leather flying jacket. Also had the sheep lined boots on my feet. Used the foot pedals for rudder control plus the throttle control and the joy stick. Had a blast with flying the biplanes all over France and Germany till the CPU and the game wouldnt wortkany more together.

The wife would see me sit down at my controls and tell the kids dont bother daddy hes goin to war for a few hours. He will be saving the world again for all of us to be safe. Same goes for now only thing is i dont have the stuff to wear like i did then and the kids are no longer at home to bother daddy any more. Now i get to save mankind as long as i want too.

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/16/2004 4:47:52 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		Coincidentally, I have fought two battles against much larger AI forces in the past week where I suffered no casualties at all. I think that routing/destroying your opponent's A0 and breaking his morale (by routing two thirds of his force) is the key to all victories and greatly aids force protection. Do the best recon you can and zero in a devastating artillery barrage. This can be a process of elimination, if your recon can see where the enemy force is not, then you can target what is left of the map. A few big guns are better than a lot of small ones, and a dash of air power or large calibre rockets nails it. Meanwhile, only expose that part of your force that is actually doing something, such as the recon units or direct fire artillery.

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Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/16/2004 7:11:15 PM   
minefield


Posts: 289
Joined: 3/25/2004
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Ok for anyone "in character" while playing the game, we've got to see some pictures.
I do remember seeing Ozzy's kid wearing a gas mask while playing a FPS on his reality TV show once. I thought, "he that's pretty cool... I never thought of dressing up while playing."

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never cross a minefield

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/17/2004 12:30:07 AM   
kedalion

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: Wisconsin, United States
Status: offline 		Funny, about a year ago I thought I'd try and buy a historical Polish infantry force and try a 5 scenario campaign of all easy battles against the Germans without rebuilding any forces at all. I think I started with 2 of those monster foot companies and 1 motorized company (I think I ended up buying French hvy trucks), a platoon of their light tanks (this is all from memory) some ATG's and mortars... I figured it was heavy on boots, light on tracks, a reasonably historical force. The first battle was a meeting engagement.
By turn 4 (roughly) all my trucks were burning or abandoned and my motorized company was in route. By turn 9 my motorized company was all but lost and my tanks were burning. By turn 15 my force morale was broken, and the only reason the game didn't end was because I held one victory objective area. I think about 200 assorted crewmen and infantry scraps survived... needless to say, I never played battle #2!

It would be interesting to try that again, but maybe in a different theater where an infantry force stands a chance!!!

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/17/2004 5:04:42 AM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		A funny story to relay to all of u like myself that share enjoyment of games/computer use under the influience of cannibus, An american serviceman then in the Berlin Brigade when I met him in 81 just b4 the wall fell, said he was playing just b4 going in for an evening of MP duty in the red light district, drew down on the Monitor while doing some pistol play put a 9mm jhp threw said monitor into his neibors shower. SO much for dressing to charicter there EH !!!! { he said he fired on a pop-up of RUPAUL]

< Message edited by Riun T -- 11/17/2004 3:04:20 AM >

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/17/2004 11:30:44 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		I gave up my ambition to minimize casualties when I learned that infantry can really deal out a whipping if they're ready to sacrifice a few. Even more so if you're short on time. At least for high morale armies (or RUSSIANS) I accept attrition rates over 50% in point squads if that keeps the enemy down.

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/24/2004 3:17:23 AM   
Hunpecked

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 2/26/2001
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

...you, as the A0, are still responsible for the men you are commanding.



I don't go so far as to consider myself responsible for actual human lives (WAY too much pressure! ), but I do try to minimize friendly casualties; it's just good gaming, especially in a campaign. After all, keeping core casualties low:

1. Conserves experience
2. Preserves replacement points for unit upgrades
3. Leaves more combat strength to apply against the enemy on the current map
4. Denies victory points to the enemy, making it easier to score higher levels of victory

Note that points 3 and 4 also apply to AUX forces. They're certainly more expendable than core, but I try not to be careless with them. Like RolandRahn, however, I don't put recon units in my core. When advancing, the point units will inevitably suffer higher casualties, no matter how carefully played.

When setting up for an advance scenario, I count up victory hexes and estimate which ones (if any) I can make a low priority and still win a DV. In more than one campaign scenario I've adopted a deliberate, casualty-minimizing pace of advance that left a meaningless VH uncaptured at the end. Note that this cunning strategy can be upset by the sudden appearance of new VHs , so there are certainly potential drawbacks to being a pal to your men.

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/24/2004 3:32:53 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Hunpecked, one of the things I've learned the hard way is that if you get ambushed in close terrain or bad visibility and suffer casualties at say, two-hex range, pop smoke. This can prevent a high-experience unit from getting wiped out, allowing them to restore cohesion and get the heck out of there. It's common-sense, but its taken me years to finally realize I can do this and save some lives ("I ain't retreatin', dammit--I'm advancin' in a different direction!").

(Note: I posted the real-world circular on "Battle Doctrine for Front-Line Leaders" in the Training Center because it emphasizes bold but common-sense thinking. Even veteran gamers sometimes lose their cool in the heat of battle. )

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/23/2004 8:37:39 PM >

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/24/2004 3:53:39 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		One more thing--regarding "caring for your men", I'd love to start a thread discussing Marine legend Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller. He is an enigma to me. At Peleliu he was accused of butchering his 1st Marines, but at other times he was lionized by his men and even today, every Marine recruit will know at least the name and his indelible association with the "spirit of the Marines". He was "The Old Breed" personified.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/23/2004 8:56:02 PM >

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/27/2004 2:05:28 PM   
Toivo


Posts: 29
Joined: 6/8/2004
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		Hmm interesting point of view, I will have to try this. So far I have always accepted doctrine that some man have to be expendable to achive objective. If they get lucky and survive their mission - congratulations! Otherwise - though luck. But I don't imagine will I play more wimpy if I don't dare to sacrifice some units for "greater cause"...

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/27/2004 9:14:49 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Toivo, it also depends on which nation you are playing as. If you were, say, the Russians, I'd think that one would be less concerned with low-point-value infantry being "expendable"--certainly the average front-line Soviet commander in 1939 or 1941 thought that way. Then again, as a Russian commander, if you didn't achieve the objective, you could expect to either be "counting trees" in a Siberian gulag or facing a firing squad.

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 11/28/2004 8:26:19 PM   
Toivo


Posts: 29
Joined: 6/8/2004
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		Yes well to be honest I do feel uncomfortable every time one of my squads looses more than one man as I play Germans only. But still I am too newbie to wargaming with my couple years so I can haven't tried to characterize my troops very often. Only when writing AARs and even so faintly enough.

But this viewpoint is as I said interesting and no doubt worth a try.

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RE: Minimizing Casualties - 12/1/2004 8:01:37 AM   
Hauptmann6

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Portage, MI
Status: offline 		I tend to be very protective of my troops. I pulled off a 3 company attack due to taking heave casualties(couldn't break the mine barrier. Lost a platoon of engineers). I did break through elsewhere, but I saved a TON of casualties be not going on that flank.

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Post #: 20
RE: Minimizing Casualties - 12/5/2004 7:32:10 AM   
Bladrian


Posts: 30
Joined: 2/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Toivo

Yes well to be honest I do feel uncomfortable every time one of my squads looses more than one man as I play Germans only. But still I am too newbie to wargaming with my couple years so I can haven't tried to characterize my troops very often. Only when writing AARs and even so faintly enough.

But this viewpoint is as I said interesting and no doubt worth a try.


I'm with you there, Toivo. I take each of my people's casualties personally - and I will do my damndest to mete out death and destruction to the offending enemy that caused those casualties.

It's not business: it's personal, dammit.

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