I just can't get into this game.

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> I just can't get into this game.

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I just can't get into this game. - 11/27/2004 7:39:23 PM

Huskalator

Posts: 212
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline

I am on my fifth try to really enjoy WitP. I love the Pacific theatre and I love grand strategy wargames. I really want to love this game. I can't though. The main reason is the UI. Its a huge obstacle to playing WitP, not a useful tool for playing the game. If it wasn't for the computer doing the calculations for me and a decent AI I would rather play WitP the boardgame than WitP the PC game. If WitP were a board game all I would have to do is pick up the counters and move them where I wanted, not click endlessly through 6+ screens. The UI is terrible and there is really no excuse for it. Its not labor intensive nor does it require a lot of programming skill. All it takes is a little thought to the easiest way for a human to play this game.

Examples:

1)
The Witp way:
If there are fifty subs stationed at a base, a common siutuation at the beginning of a scenario, I have to set a mission for each and every sub individually, even if they all get the same mission.

Time: 20 minutes

The better way:
a)Left click and drag the cursor over all fifty subs.
b)Right click on the highlighted subs and bring up the available sub missions, computer control options, boats per tf, etc
c)Check off desired options
d)Boom, 50 tfs ready to sink some shipping

Time: 20 seconds

Use your imagination and this can work for all sorts of TF creation nightmares.

2)
The WitP way:
To find out if your factories are getting enough supply, you have to visit each base and then bust out a calculator to try to figure out if the oil and resources there are enough.

The better way:
Next to each base that is lacking resources, a yellow dot. Next to each base that is lacking oil, a blue dot. I can find out the resource situation in all of Japan home island by just looking at the map.

3)

The WitP way:

A broken auto convoy system that causes players to manage the entire logistics of the war. Starting turns take hours. Only the diehard with their calculators ever even know if they are getting the right stuff to where it is needed. Recource and oil transfers have to be done completly manually, or at least I haven't found a way to make routine convoy transport oil and resources.

The better way:

Make logistics a collaborative effort between the AI and the human. Let the human create his own chain of supply by clicking on the delivery base and dragging a line to the recieving base. After doing so a box would pop up giving the player the option to set the types of resources he wants going to that base. Doing this simple step would create the logistic web in 15 minutes, not 2 hours. A button on the top of the screen would display the entire web so the player can see which bases no longer need supply or are better served by manual supply (heavy combat area). The AI's part is to create the TFs and figure out how much is needed.

Matrix and 2by3 made almost no effort to improve the UI and logistics over UV while they increased the complexity and scope of the game ten fold. What little effort they made, the auto convoy system, fell flat on its face. I cannot purchase another 2by3 game until they learn how to make games that are fun to play.

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Post #: 1

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/27/2004 7:49:27 PM

skrewball

Posts: 305
Joined: 12/10/2000
From: Belgium
Status: offline

I totally agree with you on how difficult the UI is in this game. However, once you start getting into the game. You don't really mind. It majorly pays off when you watch a torpedo slam into the side of the Lexington!

(in reply to Huskalator)

Post #: 2

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/27/2004 8:00:52 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

try this to make sub ops a little faster.

for the beginning part of the voyage form 1 or several very large sub TF's (ex, sub TF contains 15 subs) and set it a destination central to the map area you wish to disperse your subs.

As you approach the destination, begin breaking up the TF(s) into smaller components. You can do a few a turn until by the time your there, you can break down the remaining TF's into individuals. It does save a bit of time.

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Post #: 3

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/27/2004 8:04:39 PM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

That is a good idea Nik, the only problem is that seems to trigger the lost leader bug.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 4

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/27/2004 8:36:36 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

i'm told that this only occurs if you do it when in a hex that contains another TF. I've yet to trigger the leader bug when breaking down sub TF's in my current test game.

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Post #: 5

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/27/2004 9:28:48 PM

dtravel

Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline

Pry hasn't given any details on what he's found other than confirming at least two causes and suspecting there are more. But from what others have reported it isn't always the ships being worked with that get affected by the Leader bug getting triggered. Someone was noticing a timing correlation between ships sinking and leaders being replaced on other ships halfway across the map.

Just because none of the subs have had their COs replaced doesn't mean that splitting the sub TFs hasn't triggered other units having their leaders replaced.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 6

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/28/2004 2:05:26 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

After the first turn, the odds have having loads of subs disbanded in a base are pretty low. I send one out every few days after the big first turn if their sys dam is 0.

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(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 7

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/28/2004 5:02:38 AM

rogueusmc

Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline

I just don't see the difficulties folks have with the interface...I guess, that being as I have used it in UV and now WitP, I am just used to it.

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(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 8

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/28/2004 5:12:05 AM

stall84

Posts: 146
Joined: 5/9/2004
From: Macon, GA
Status: offline

I agree, you have to be a clicker-junky to play this game. I infact love this game, it suits me well, and I enjoy the challenge.
You can be as specific or as non-specific with orders as you like, and depending on which you choose, you might end up doing better or worse.

I can't really comment on the AI, cuz I'm only a few months into the grand campaign.
The computer is doing some funny stuff, like spending waaaaaaaaaaay too much time messing around with Java, and Sumatra, and meaningless places like that, but I have also lost alot of ground, so like I said, it's yet to be seen.

(in reply to Huskalator)

Post #: 9

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/28/2004 5:24:40 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

I just don't see the difficulties folks have with the interface...I guess, that being as I have used it in UV and now WitP, I am just used to it.

It's clunky but it does what it was intended to do. More management devices would be nice. Really would like the Task Group (mobile home port) and ability to place vessels into more manageable divisions/squadrons. Getting ugly with all the ships we are adding. For example, we have Tacoma class frigates but are not in the OOB. Can you imagine how frigging impossible it's going to be to organize a 1944 invasion of PI? Follow this TF add infinity! Not good enough.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to rogueusmc)

Post #: 10

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/28/2004 6:20:41 AM

CMDRMCTOAST

Posts: 673
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline

quote:

2)
The WitP way:
To find out if your factories are getting enough supply, you have to visit each base and then bust out a calculator to try to figure out if the oil and resources there are enough.

The better way:
Next to each base that is lacking resources, a yellow dot. Next to each base that is lacking oil, a blue dot. I can find out the resource situation in all of Japan home island by just looking at the map.

I tend to think this could be improved on slightly also, maybe with a report
that would give a breakdown of the required amounts to be shipped into
the bases and or some kind of trigger or highlight that allows you to know
that you need to supply resources or oil to these bases.
other than that I think it is a great game for years to come.

_____________________________

The essence of military genius is to bring under
consideration all of the tendencies of the mind
and soul in combination towards the business of
war..... Karl von Clausewitz

(in reply to Huskalator)

Post #: 11

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/29/2004 4:11:48 AM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

I agree the u.i. is terribly clunky, and it is often counterintuitive. I.e. - if you clik on one button it means "I want to do this", while if you clik on another button, it means you don't.

For example: For ships, if you clik on "Load supplies", it means you want to load supplies. But for say, ground units. if you clik on "Accept replacements", it apparently means you DON'T want to accept replacements - at least that's what I think it means (since if you clik on the base command, go to "Troops located at xxx", then clik "Allow replacements for units on this list", it sets the message for all the troops there to "Accept replacements".

The first time I tried the game, I spent about 2 hours figuring this out the hard way, going through each and every unit trying to get the settings right, only to discover it was backwards.

Similar problems exist with aircraft settings, etc.

Another thing that would make the game MUCH easier to use: I find myself spending a lot of time on turn 1 setting aircraft NOT to fly out to their maximum extended range, and limiting them to normal range (so as to decrease operational losses), changing their altitude, etc. Even taking lots of time, it always seems there is one unit or two overlooked. It would be so much easier if they added an option (perhaps in a different screen, or not) that allowed you to make this setting universal, i.e. - beneath "Set all Hudsons in this base", there could be a button "Set all Hudsons in this Control Zone" (or maybe set all Hudsons in theater (with a second prompt "Are you sure?", so that you can't screw up 87 airgroups with one stray clik) - this would be a huge timesaver.

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Post #: 12

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/29/2004 5:22:47 AM

Caltone

Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc
I just don't see the difficulties folks have with the interface...I guess, that being as I have used it in UV and now WitP, I am just used to it.

I have to agree with this. I think just playing over time, you get used to it. As long as it performs it's function it's OK. I get so lost in the planning and watching what's happening that navigating the screens is a non issue.

For comparison, I remember the first time I booted up HOI. If any of you have tried this, you know how intimidating the UI is in that game. That was my first paradox game and the UI was overwhelming at first glance. After playing the game for awhile, it becomes second nature for me to navigate to whichever screen I need and I instead focus on strategic planning and the day to day needs of my nation.

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(in reply to rogueusmc)

Post #: 13

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/29/2004 11:09:41 AM

WhoCares

Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caltone

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc
I just don't see the difficulties folks have with the interface...I guess, that being as I have used it in UV and now WitP, I am just used to it.

I have to agree with this. I think just playing over time, you get used to it. As long as it performs it's function it's OK. I get so lost in the planning and watching what's happening that navigating the screens is a non issue.
...

Just to be able to getting used to it and being able to do all the things you ought to do doesn't mean it is a good interface. All in all, it has the look and feel of a GUI of the 80's to me.

(in reply to Caltone)

Post #: 14

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/29/2004 9:53:03 PM

dtravel

Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

Just to be able to getting used to it and being able to do all the things you ought to do doesn't mean it is a good interface. All in all, it has the look and feel of a GUI of the 80's to me.

Probably because that's when Mr. Grigsby designed the game.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to WhoCares)

Post #: 15

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/29/2004 10:54:00 PM

Chaplain

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline

Everyone is correct here, the UI needs an overhaul. But that's a FANTASY.

REALITY is we're stuck with it as is.

And the sad, sick truth is that we will keep playing and keep loving it. FOR WE ARE GROGNARDS!!!!

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 16

RE: I just can't get into this game. - 11/30/2004 11:04:22 AM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

WITP is a good game. Yes, it could be better, but I guess we'll just have to wait 10 years for another attempt to be made.

All I ask from Matrix is to please fix the real bugs. Leaders being the most important.

I still wonder about the ground movement. In 35 years of wargaming this is the only game I've played that you pay for the hex you're leaving instead of entering.

So far the speed of the game can be rectified by the use of about 20 house rules.

Board game rules for a computer game.

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Post #: 17

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> I just can't get into this game.

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