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Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 7:22:34 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		There seems to have been a strong reaction to my last developer's journal post. Let me clear up a few things. First, I did not mean to imply that 1.4 would be the last patch. We are committed to attempt to fix bugs as long as we continue to get good information about them and saves from game players. I did mean to imply that the number of "new features" and/or major system rewrites would greatly decline.

We cannot continue to "improve" WitP endlessly. Perhaps someday we will turn the code over to some outside volunteers to continue working on the code, but let me tell you it won't be easy for anyone to move this monster without adding their share of new bugs. Mike has been very good about adding in new features after release (for both UV and WitP), but this cannot go on for very long. How many boardgame companies do you see rewriting their rules after release?

As for bugs, we're very sorry that some bugs are still in the game. Given the complexity of the game and the program, I think the game is in pretty good shape. But I realize that even one major bug can be a source of great frustration for someone devoting a lot of time to playing the game. I try to keep an eye on the forum for any major bugs, as do Kid, Frag, Mike and Mogami. Sometimes it's hard to tell what's really out there that needs working on. Yesterday someone reported that there were several major bugs and emailed me to say that saves had been send to Kid for these. Kid reported to me that they are working on the vanishing leaders bug, but that no saves have been received on any of the other items. Without saves, we could be spinning our wheels for weeks with no progress. So my major request is that if you know of a bug that you think is important, please spend the added time to get us saves (starting before the bug occurs along with instructions on how to recreate the bug). I realize this is not always possible, but without saves, we may never be able to find and fix the bug.

It has been mentioned that some players have found it too easy for Russia and China to be defeated by Japan early in the game. Of course as the great "I gotta admit, I find it amusing the back-n-forth" thread pointed out, there always someone screaming about something that is unbalanced in the game. Issues must reach a certain level of general agreement before we usually take any particular rant as the gospel. I will admit that with WitP, unlike most other games, the shear size and length of the game made it physically impossible for us to test all (or even most) strategies. We tried to balance what we could, and hoped that the general realism of the model would account for most things that we couldn't test. Anyone that thinks that it is possible to put out a game on this topic at this scale that would be fully tested and balanced out of the box is dreaming. We do realize this and that's why we are open to tweaks as certain "game breakers" are found. This doesn't mean that every claim of a problem means there is one. For most strategies there is a counter. One player beating one player doesn't mean anything. I just took on one of the experienced testers in Gary Grigsby's World at War. Playing as the Allies, I had retaken Italy and France by early 1942 (while the US was not even in the war). Does this mean the game is unbalanced? No. It means that 1) I have more experience with the game, and 2) Knowing this player's general style of play (by watching his AAR's on the forum), I was able to devise strategies best suited to counter those strategies. Throw in a little luck and bang, a lopsided game. Same goes for WitP, except that instead of taking a week to come to this conclusion, it can easily take 6 months.

So to sum things up. 1) We will continue to fix important bugs as they are found and we can get good information and saves. 2) The amount of new features and major system changes will greatly decline, but there will probably come a time where the code will be made available to outside programmers willing to carry on. 3) We will continue to be on the lookout for tweaks that can be safely made to "balance" items that are seriously out of whack.
Post #: 1
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 7:25:44 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		Thanks for taking the time to post this info, sir.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 2
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 7:41:55 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Hi Joel,

I was wondering when do you think it would make sense for us [external developers] interested to help with WitP development to come in and help. I figure since we still have you guys and matrix games that are actively looking into the code today perhaps this could be the time for some of us to come and start helping out/learning rather than when "oven gets cold" . I do believe that WitP has a lot of source code and I believe it will take a long time to get to know the code well so I figure the earlier to better. The way I see it is, I would start looking at the code/debugging and try to fix very simple things like text not being aligned correctly, add an extra field to be displayed on a dialog/screen etc...


Peter

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 3
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 7:46:08 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I'll have to speak with David and Mike at Matrix about this. My guess is probably not for at least a few more months. I'll let you know after I speak with them.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 4
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 8:19:50 PM   
guke

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I'll have to speak with David and Mike at Matrix about this. My guess is probably not for at least a few more months. I'll let you know after I speak with them.


I realize it would be crazy for you to release the code while the game is still selling in significant numbers but I bet there
are lots of people with considerable programming abilities around here that would be willing to sign any NDA and even
invest money in a development toolchain just to be able to improve the game in their free time

I do software development for a living (mostly realtime embedded systems) and I would love to get a chance to work on
WitP for free in my spare time (Jeeze, I think I really am turning into a nerd )

Gunnar

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 5
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 8:23:48 PM   
Freddy Fudpucker

 

Posts: 235
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for posting Joel,

It puts a lot of rumours to bed.

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Gentlemen, we're in the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun'. -Capt. E. Blackadder.

(in reply to guke)
Post #: 6
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 8:29:51 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Wow. I got quoted by a Dev. I'm definately gonna brag about this one to my brother (who will be marginally impressed), my wife (who will roll her eyes), and my son (who will burble at me until I change his diaper).

I was simply commenting that both sides are paranoid that their side is hopelessly gimped. Which doesn't really make any sense if you think about it. How can someone say that the Allies are assured destruction because China will cave, and then in the next breath, say that Japan's war prospects don't last beyond March 42 because their pilot pool is completely depleted.

I call good it old fashioned pros and cons. Even if you can roll China (remains to be seen in my own games), Japan has it's own set of obsticles. It's your job as a player to minimize your own weaknesses, and capitalize on your strengths.

Sure there are issues with the game. That's thing about public release, you now have thousands of players (obviously with -WAY- too much time on their hands) trying to figure out even the smallest detail which will give them an advantage over their opponent (whether it's a bug or just simply an exploitation of initial disposition of forces).

I think it's a great game, and enjoy it tremendously. Considering that both of my PBEM games are the epic campaign on 1-day turns (and it takes about 2 days to complete each turn), I'll be playing them until about 2012. In which case, I expect to see WiE (War Europe) by then...



Cheers.
-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 12/1/2004 1:31:21 PM >

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 7
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 8:32:13 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Thanks Joel.
My two cents worth. If, as is understandable, the number of patches is limited, then please avoid any major patching, until a significant number of players get to 1945. I would hate to get there only to find that the nukes don't work, or, as has been reported, that the Okhas dont go boom.
Please do fix the vanishing leader bug if you can, or any bugs that you fix, by the way of small patches, if possible.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the greatest game of the type, (the only one too, so it is also the worst) and Matrix provides a level of support much greater than any other gaming company. Keep this up and you'll get my $$ (wife permitting)

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to Freddy Fudpucker)
Post #: 8
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 8:48:28 PM   
Mark VII


Posts: 1838
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Brentwood,TN
Status: offline 		I have to agree with kaleun. this is the greatest computer game on this time period I have ever seen(and will probably EVER see). Happy to read that bug fixes and tweaks will continue. I am not overly concerned about "new features" as WitP is awsome in its current form.

Thankyou Matrix for the long and hard work producing this game and especially thankyou for the continued tech support of WitP.

So many of game companies forget about their products once out the door (if they play correctly or not) Not you guys! Thanks again...terry

(in reply to kaleun)
Post #: 9
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 9:19:50 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline 		good to hear! thanks for the update!

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(in reply to Mark VII)
Post #: 10
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 9:36:28 PM   
ltfightr


Posts: 537
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Little Rock AR
Status: offline 		This is the most definitive war game written to date.

I love the support matrix has given they take a lot of cr@p from people who do things that no one envisioned some one doing then cry that the game is broke. Are there still some bugs? YES will 2x3 fix them I think there past support and every indication they have given is YES.

If this gave had all the features and all the flexibility that everyone wanted it would:
A. Still be in development
B. Still be trying to decide how to code a experimental plane that 2 test models were built in 194x and might have saved/ended war.
C Cost 100x as much due to the time involved.
D never made at all.


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Post #: 11
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 9:41:51 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		With the amount of work we see having to go into WITP, I can't imagine how much it would have taken for UV/Med or UV/Europe!

(in reply to ltfightr)
Post #: 12
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 10:07:22 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JOEL BILLINGS

So to sum things up. 1) We will continue to fix important bugs as they are found and we can get good information and saves.


Great! But where do we send the saves now? Or should we just keep them until the moderators, etc. get back? (This does not include the leader bug saves, which Fry is taking.)

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 12/1/2004 4:09:00 PM >

_____________________________


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Post #: 13
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 10:17:28 PM   
guke

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ltfightr

This is the most definitive war game written to date.

I love the support matrix has given they take a lot of cr@p from people who do things that no one envisioned some one doing then cry that the game is broke. Are there still some bugs? YES will 2x3 fix them I think there past support and every indication they have given is YES.


I think most people around here will agree to your statement.

I believe the main reasons that a few people are really angry is that a WitP campaign take up so much of your free
time that you feel cheated when when you realize that you should have played differently weeks ago because some aspect
of the game mechanics does not work as documented or is buggy.

Also, as has been stated lots of times such a large software project needs to be a commercial success, otherwise a small
company can easily go broke over it. And we do have to pay for being a niche market. This not only means that a
game like WitP needs to be more expensive than Warcraft XXXIV but also that development man-hours are a much larger
factor in overall costs than in other genres. I think nobody can expect 2by3 to give highest priority to bugfixing for a game
that probably has already been bought by the majority of the few potential customers. If 2by3 needs to work on other
titles for the time being we'll just have to be patient since the game is definitly not unplayable.

Bugfixing can easily endanger or ruin a software company when you can't say no to a customer. I've seen it happen.

(in reply to ltfightr)
Post #: 14
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 10:28:09 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Great! But where do we send the saves now? Or should we just keep them until the moderators, etc. get back?


You send 'em to the same old place you always send 'em to and you include as much detail as humanly possible with the save.

After looking at about the 1000th save, one really has no clue what save #163 happens to have been about.

Everyone really needs to clearly understand this point and it can not be make enough times:

The Fate of a Bug being fixed is most likely directly in your hands. If you can produce a save that repeats a problem when being loaded from scratch, you have localized and isolated the bug.

Having a localized and isolated bug means we can test it, report that it is valid and have it in Mike's hands to fix. Without that, we have to on our own time try and take what you say happened to you and recreate a set of circumstances where it also happens to us. There are a handful of us with limited time.

The better you do, the better off the game will be. Think team. We all sink together here.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 15
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 10:37:10 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		I for one am very happy about all of this. Now I no longer have to worry that WitP will suffer a short life. WTG Matrix and 2by3.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 16
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 11:32:02 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		Thanks for setting the record straight Joel.

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Quote from Snigbert -

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"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

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Post #: 17
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 11:49:15 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Great! But where do we send the saves now? Or should we just keep them until the moderators, etc. get back?


You send 'em to the same old place you always send 'em to and you include as much detail as humanly possible with the save.



Sorry to be dense - but I don't know who's email to send it to or other way to upload the .pws file. If I click on your email in your profile - there is no option to attach a file. If I try Private Message - it allows uploads but not of pws files. So, where do I/we send these to?

_____________________________


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Post #: 18
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 11:52:05 PM   
Disco Duck


Posts: 552
Joined: 11/16/2004
From: San Antonio
Status: offline 		I understand that your company can not permanently assign resources for improvements to the game. What about coming out with a version 2.0 with a lot of the improvements that have suggested by your membership? I can't think of how many times Chess-master and other chess programs have come out with new versions.

One statement you made does bother me though. You said: "We tried to balance what we could, and hoped that the general realism of the model would account for most things that we couldn't test." I bought this game mostly because it promised to be very realistic. Trying to artificially change the balance just reduces the enjoyment of trying to do better than the actual participants. Anyone who plays this game probably knows enough about the war not to repeat the major blunders that both sides made. Even the AI seems to recognize the fact that Port Moresby is more important than Midway.

I would suggest something like time weighted victory points similar to what was done in Crusader for balance.

Hud

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 19
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 11:54:48 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		DD, isn't that exactly what we have in WITP? time weighted victory conditions? I guess I do not understand your post..

(in reply to Disco Duck)
Post #: 20
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/1/2004 11:56:42 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		For Frag, just have him PM you with his email address. I will not give out his address with out his permission.

Same for all the other Betas. Just PM them for their email address.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 21
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:06:18 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		Perhaps he means something like in Koei's Pacific Theater of Operations. While you have to win the war war before 1946, you also have other objectives. I.e., the Emperor or President directs you to take Midway Island before such-and such date. This would force the player to have to make some of the same choices as were made historically, and enhance the realism (Nimitz did what he wanted, provided the joint-chiefs approved, for example).

In PTO, for each month you would have to select an objective, so while you could do whatever, your end result for that period of time would be the invasion of a certain island.

Not saying I agree with his suggestion, but I am guessing that's what he meant.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 22
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:13:03 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		And now I will back off a little with my screaming. All it takes is some word from the higher ups as to what is going on.

Thank you Joel.

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 23
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:17:38 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		I think that is what upset most of us really, is the fact we were handed this update, misunderstood it, and then when no one commented on it we all assumed the worst. I for one will rest easier now.
Well not really, I am busting my *** to get WPO finished.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 24
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:20:36 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

For Frag, just have him PM you with his email address. I will not give out his address with out his permission.

Same for all the other Betas. Just PM them for their email address.


Thanks!!!

_____________________________


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Post #: 25
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:26:02 AM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		Thank ya Joel. I for one am a "happy camper" with witp. It has some problems but still over all its a great wargame. Thanks for the Info.

_____________________________

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Post #: 26
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:40:19 AM   
worr

 

Posts: 901
Joined: 2/7/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I think that is what upset most of us really, is the fact we were handed this update, misunderstood it, and then when no one commented on it we all assumed the worst.


Man, does that sound like the Mrs. :)

Worr,out

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 27
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:41:13 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		.....

No WPO for you




_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to worr)
Post #: 28
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:46:53 AM   
worr

 

Posts: 901
Joined: 2/7/2001
Status: offline 		Yep, then she declines services. :)

Man, you are on a roll!

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 29
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:54:07 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		Err....ummm....erg....AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH


If anyone heres a loud popping sound that was my brain expoloding

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to worr)
Post #: 30
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