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Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 4:17:18 PM

Roughtor

Posts: 57
Joined: 11/19/2004
From: Toronto/Gdynia
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May 1942... playing Japanese... everything is working great, maybe with the exception of repeated air raids by unescorted Nells from Rabaul against PM (1 out of 8 raids went without escorts, with 2 zero groups in Rabaul and 2 in Lae set to escort)... this decimated my Nells in 3 days... the weather is horrible... but still seems a little too much... but I can understand this...

the problem I seem to have is 5 Jap subs lost in two days... basically every allied anti-sub attack succeeds... even from a lowly MSW... I know the allies were good at this... but not that good... I was looking for a thread on this... if there is one please point me to it... I feel this is one of the most pressing things that should get "slightly" fixed in the upcoming patch. If this goes on I will have no subs in a month. Mind you four of the lost subs were in deep water.

Post #: 1

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 4:54:22 PM

MadmanRick

Posts: 579
Joined: 4/9/2004
From: New York City, U.S.A.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Akitsuki

May 1942... playing Japanese... everything is working great, maybe with the exception of repeated air raids by unescorted Nells from Rabaul against PM (1 out of 8 raids went without escorts, with 2 zero groups in Rabaul and 2 in Lae set to escort)... this decimated my Nells in 3 days... the weather is horrible... but still seems a little too much... but I can understand this...

the problem I seem to have is 5 Jap subs lost in two days... basically every allied anti-sub attack succeeds... even from a lowly MSW... I know the allies were good at this... but not that good... I was looking for a thread on this... if there is one please point me to it... I feel this is one of the most pressing things that should get "slightly" fixed in the upcoming patch. If this goes on I will have no subs in a month. Mind you four of the lost subs were in deep water.

Akitsuki,
I know this will be hard to believe but the ASW was reportedly worked on in the last patch. From what the people in the "know" (dev's, beta's) have said this is working fine. However, for what it's worth I and many others agree with you. In my current PBEM game it's late Jan. '42 and I've lost 19 or 20 Japanese subs to allied ASW (mostly DD's and MSW's). There are a couple of people working on toning down the Allied ASW capabilities and both are working along similar lines, but with differing approaches. Hopefully, at least one of these "fixes" will be posted at Spooky's, so that all of us who do take issue with the uber ASW, will be able to do something about it. I hope this helps!

Rick

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Post #: 2

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 5:57:25 PM

LittleJoe

Posts: 610
Joined: 8/4/2004
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quote:

the problem I seem to have

In my Pbem with Gilles i lose one every 2nd day. Its a joke, espically considering the hex is a "60 mile" area, the Destroyers just seem to lock on straight away.

(in reply to MadmanRick)

Post #: 3

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 6:08:39 PM

Brady

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As mentioned to me by subchaser, aparently WiTP does not take into acount (amongst other things) the spead of the atacking surface vessel to determine the chance it would have of actualy geting into posation to depth charge a sub.

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Post #: 4

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 6:13:10 PM

forranger

Posts: 96
Joined: 9/15/2004
From: Switzerland
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Hi.

Do you guys replace the initial (mostly terrible) sub commanders? In my pbem as jap I recalled most subs to port right on turn one, put in better officers (as sub captains, not as TF leader!), and this seems to have worked miracles. I lost 1 sub to a 6 DD hunter group, but my subs were able to evade or at least survive and reach port for repairs on about 6 occasions. I put careful officers in subs with recon aircraft (don't want to lose these!) and aggressive ones in those that I rate as attack subs.

My guess is if you're sending out sub skippers with ratings of 45 they are bound for trouble..... One other important factor may be that most jap subs have inexperienced crews, so use them carefully. Why not let them train in safer waters, with your surface and air forces you have other and more effective assets to fling at the allies at the beginning of the campaign.

Jay

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Post #: 5

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 6:42:28 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: forranger

Hi.

Do you guys replace the initial (mostly terrible) sub commanders? In my pbem as jap I recalled most subs to port right on turn one, put in better officers (as sub captains, not as TF leader!), and this seems to have worked miracles. I lost 1 sub to a 6 DD hunter group, but my subs were able to evade or at least survive and reach port for repairs on about 6 occasions. I put careful officers in subs with recon aircraft (don't want to lose these!) and aggressive ones in those that I rate as attack subs.

My guess is if you're sending out sub skippers with ratings of 45 they are bound for trouble..... One other important factor may be that most jap subs have inexperienced crews, so use them carefully. Why not let them train in safer waters, with your surface and air forces you have other and more effective assets to fling at the allies at the beginning of the campaign.

Jay

Everyone keeps talking about leaders and crew quality like these elements are the primary issues for everything. They are not or should not be. DC accuracy is abnormally high...more accurate than bombs dropped by dive bombers. This and the amazing ability of surface forces to almost constantly detect and foil subs is clearly an error. It would be nice if the devs did something but they don't believe there is a problem. Everyone has their opinion, they just happen to be in the driver's seat. No real worries though. Looks like ASW can be tweaked somewhat effectively using the editor in a few ways sothose who think there is no problem can use the stock scenarios...those who think it's way off can use the mods when they are ready. No big deal. Frees them up for other necessities.

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Post #: 6

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 6:46:52 PM

KPAX

Posts: 735
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good points Torranger.

Also

1. Keep them in deep water.

2. They get spotted move them right away.

3. They get SYS damage of 10+ sent them home for repairs.

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Post #: 7

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 7:04:01 PM

moses

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In this game:

1.) Surface ASW is far more effective than IRL.

2.) Air ASW is way LESS effective than IRL.

These 2 things balance out so that if subs are used in a rational and historical manner then loss and kill rate will approximate real life.

There are 2 problems with how people are viewing this issue.

1.) Some seem to believe that subs are decisive weapons. They are not, especially for Japan. They are not capable of stopping invasions nor can you inflict massive losses on the allied navy. If you insist on entering base hexes and/or lingering around major allied bases you will get creamed.

I use my Jap subs for recon and in areas where my airpower prevents enemy ASW forces from operating freely. I also use my subs in areas where I am reasonably sure that ASW forces are not operating. I take very low losses to my sub force.

2.)Players seem obsesed with the surface ASW vs sub results instead of looking how the game handles subs as a whole. Everyone knows that surface ASW vs subs is too strong but know one talks about the equally obvious fact that air ASW is way too weak.

Just my opinion but after being very concerned with how subs were handled for quite a while I'm pretty happy with how things work in this area.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 8

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 8:10:49 PM

Roughtor

Posts: 57
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From: Toronto/Gdynia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

In this game:

1.) Surface ASW is far more effective than IRL.

2.) Air ASW is way LESS effective than IRL.

These 2 things balance out so that if subs are used in a rational and historical manner then loss and kill rate will approximate real life.

I agree that air ASW is not as effective as it should be... but I would rather stay clear from allied airbases in fear of their aircraft, but have a chance at sinking a warship when it presents itself where there is no allied air presence or where Japan has air superiority... as I currently have around Guadalcanal...

Japs used their subs to some effect in the area (Wasp) and it seems this will not be possible as even a single minesweeper will foil the attack and send my sub to the bottom. How can the devs not see it as a problem is hard to understand.
I'd like to see how many Jap subs did some beta testers have after say two months of fighting using them somewhat offensively... not to say that they are to enter enemy port hexes but not use them for scouting only either...

I'll be looking forward to the aformentioned mods. Txs.

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 9

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 9:14:13 PM

Jmsimer

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From: Chaska, MN
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I have actually NEVER seen a sub sunk by aircraft in WiTP. Has anyone else?

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Post #: 10

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 9:29:31 PM

BlackVoid

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Sub sinking a warship

Never seen it happen in WITP or UV, yet in the war there were quite a few carriers hit by subs.

I once torpedoed a japanese CV in UV, but it did not cause any major damage. Even transports regularly survive 2 torp hits in the game - way off, I think.

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Post #: 11

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 10:15:50 PM

Rob322

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Joined: 8/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

Sub sinking a warship

Never seen it happen in WITP or UV, yet in the war there were quite a few carriers hit by subs.

I once torpedoed a japanese CV in UV, but it did not cause any major damage. Even transports regularly survive 2 torp hits in the game - way off, I think.

Are you saying you've never seen a ship sunk by a sub in WITP?

That's been happening in my game quite regularly, playing the Allies against Japanese AI. Most of my kills have been due to submarines so far and off Australia it's been a bloodbath. Almost 23 Jap subs have been sunk for the destruction over about 11 DD's, 5-6 MSW's, and the crippling of numerous other ships (DD's hit a hex or two from port can often limp home, pump out the water and then sail to Sydney for repair). I'm calling it a victory as I can still get convoys around but it's been bloody for sure.

(in reply to BlackVoid)

Post #: 12

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 11:01:13 PM

KPAX

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In my PBEM game I have had a Allied sub sink a fleet CV. It took a few turns to finally sink, but down she went.

And Air ASW not sinking a sub ? Probably happens all the time, and you do not SEE it (FOW). When you see:

"PBT spots S 1-2."
"==PBY HITS SS 1-2."

This means that the PBY HIT the sub. Maybe not sinking it right off, but the damage can be substantial. Making it back to port can be tough.

< Message edited by KPAX -- 12/8/2004 9:02:01 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 11:28:57 PM

testarossa

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From: Vancouver, Canada
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There was not in single Hit in my current game and I'm in Nov 1942. Some of my Hudsons an PBY sq are in 80-85 exp.

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RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 11:45:31 PM

BlackVoid

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By warships I meant CA/BB/CV. Even an MSW is a warship.

I don't think many subs were after DDs, in the game they prefer them, strange....

Just like when Betties torpedo PGs....

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Post #: 15

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/8/2004 11:48:13 PM

Tankerace

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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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Remember the USS Harder (I think that was her name(. Bagged 3 Jap DDs in 5 days. One hell of a boat, with a kick-a** skipper.

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Post #: 16

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 1:17:05 AM

Titanwarrior89

Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
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Hi ya

Well guys I am the one that sunk those sub(Pbem) against Akit and I understand what he is saying. I don't really know if it needs too be tweaked or not(asw).

But all of my asw attacks had at least 5 or more dd's/ and or msw, in them and some of the attacks were not in deep water. So this has to effect the out come since some of the attacks were made in less than deep water.

I am only saying this because I don't want the "Patch" people to go to far in tweaking and cause the system too be Underdone. In my ai game middle 44(started from 41) the losses are about right for both sides.

The problem seems to rise only in the Pbem games. But I could be wrong.

Note: Akit is kicking my butt by the way-he sunk the lex and york. Enjoy playing him alot. My escorts wouldn't fly, not sure why. But it's either experience, leadership or "Me" but I don't see a reason to tweak that(lost both cv's same battle 15 may 42). He put around 9 to 10 torps into my CV's, I had one bomb hit. He had I think 2 CV.s and a Cvl.

So inclosing it can go either way, so do we need a major tweak too the asw-maybe! All I am saying in a friendly way. Lets not go over board.

Oh well back to my butt kicking

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Post #: 17

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 2:41:04 AM

The Gnome

Posts: 1233
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From: Philadelphia, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jmsimer

I have actually NEVER seen a sub sunk by aircraft in WiTP. Has anyone else?

I have, it's rare but it happens. Look for the ":::::::HIT" messages in the air search phase. In the Ships Sunk list filter everything out but subs and look for bomb hits in the killing weapon list ;) You wont see a lot but 1 or 2 should be there.

(in reply to Jmsimer)

Post #: 18

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 2:54:23 AM

daump

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Jap against the AI, scenario 15. March 42. Jap sub doctrine on.

One of my subs put two torpedoes into the Hornet half way between Suva and Noumea. KB was only 2 days North. When KB showed up, Hornet was not capable of flying CAP and was easily sunk, along with the two destroyers that were left behind to protect her.

So the sub did not sink the Hornet directly, but definately had a very large hand in her destruction.

(in reply to The Gnome)

Post #: 19

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 3:39:49 AM

dereck

Posts: 2800
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From: Romulus, MI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Remember the USS Harder (I think that was her name(. Bagged 3 Jap DDs in 5 days. One hell of a boat, with a kick-a** skipper.

That was because the captain of the Harder when being attacked by the Japanese destroyers after sinking a merchant would reload his torpedoes and instead of running silent would turn on the Jap destroyers. From what I read he got real good firing torpedoes downthe throat at charging destroyers.

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Post #: 20

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 3:56:18 AM

Platoonist

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From: Kila Hana
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quote:

I have actually NEVER seen a sub sunk by aircraft in WiTP. Has anyone else?

I've lost two subs near Japan to air attacks by Emilys. One of them (Grayback) did limp to port at Midway but sank later. It can happen.

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RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 4:07:46 AM

Tankerace

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I had a sub get smacked by a plane... she is limping home. I have 2 choices, either to send her to the PI and scuttle, or send to PH and hope she doesn't get the deep six.

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RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 4:48:06 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
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From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. My Japanese opponant is creating havoc
with his subs and has suffered only mild losses in return. One of them just put
a torpedo into P-O-W despite her being accompanied by 3 British DD's. About
all my escorts have accomplished in the last 3 months is to force him to move
his areas of opperation. Allied subs (all of them, not just the US Fleet Boats with
the faulty torpedoes) have done very little in comparison. A couple of CD's seem
to be enough to scare them away or seriously damage them. And whoever said
Allied air ASW was a total joke got it right. Hundreds of A/C flying ASW missions,
and he can operate in the same port hex as the planes are based at. What a crock!

And mines are a joke as well. Had the Japs bombard Palembang (a neat trick in it-
self with the port being 10 miles up-river) where I had laid 600 mines in the previous
week. Not one hit to show for it. And I wasn't being bombarded by minesweepers.

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Post #: 23

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 5:25:29 AM

Ron Saueracker

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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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I find air detection of subs is actually too high in my opinion!

LOL Why am I always different? (don't answer that...

) Dave (2ndACR) can attest to the massive drubbing his subs took when in 3-4 hex range of PH during our ASW tests. PBYs, Bolos, Vindicators, Socs, B-17s!!! were spanking him pretty badly. The number of hits I have no issue with, just the number of sightings. No air searches at night so all these sightings were of subs running on the surface in daylight near bases. Some subs were sighted multiple times and hit multiple times. Correct me if I'm wrong but subs tended to stay submerged during daylight near enemy air bases. And while submerged subs could sometimes be detected from the air, this depended on a smooth sea state and this is rather a rare occurence.

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Post #: 24

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 7:09:34 AM

Platoonist

Posts: 1342
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From: Kila Hana
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I feel the aerial detection of U.S. subs is a bit too high. Most USN subs were fitted with air search radar as the war progressed. That should give enough warning for an American sub skipper time to get his ship below before the search plane arrives. Yet all my radar fitted subs regularly get detected.

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Post #: 25

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 7:38:00 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

I feel the aerial detection of U.S. subs is a bit too high. Most USN subs were fitted with air search radar as the war progressed. That should give enough warning for an American sub skipper time to get his ship below before the search plane arrives. Yet all my radar fitted subs regularly get detected.

Yep. That too.

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Post #: 26

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 7:54:22 AM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Akitsuki

May 1942... playing Japanese... everything is working great, maybe with the exception of repeated air raids by unescorted Nells from Rabaul against PM (1 out of 8 raids went without escorts, with 2 zero groups in Rabaul and 2 in Lae set to escort)... this decimated my Nells in 3 days... the weather is horrible... but still seems a little too much... but I can understand this...

the problem I seem to have is 5 Jap subs lost in two days... basically every allied anti-sub attack succeeds... even from a lowly MSW... I know the allies were good at this... but not that good... I was looking for a thread on this... if there is one please point me to it... I feel this is one of the most pressing things that should get "slightly" fixed in the upcoming patch. If this goes on I will have no subs in a month. Mind you four of the lost subs were in deep water.

did u set the escorting fighters to have Port Moresby as their target??? this helps a lot.

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Post #: 27

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 8:53:49 AM

Sharkosaurus rex

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Use the editor and give the Jap subs three points of armour. It balances out the over-kill. They still get attacked by many DC, but just less than half penetrate and do serious damage. Of course if they get the usual 4-8 hits, 2-3 will penetrate and the sub sinks. 1 penetrating hit will force it to limp home. It forces the Allies to give his convoys and TF proper escort instead of just a couple of MSW.

Sharkosaurus rex

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Post #: 28

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 5:08:30 PM

Roughtor

Posts: 57
Joined: 11/19/2004
From: Toronto/Gdynia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex

Use the editor and give the Jap subs three points of armour. It balances out the over-kill. They still get attacked by many DC, but just less than half penetrate and do serious damage. Of course if they get the usual 4-8 hits, 2-3 will penetrate and the sub sinks. 1 penetrating hit will force it to limp home. It forces the Allies to give his convoys and TF proper escort instead of just a couple of MSW.

Sharkosaurus rex

I really like that, that would also simulate the multiple DC drops during sub hunting... and only few actual hits... rather than... one drop = kill, as it happens now. Not sure how DC ammo would come into play though.

(in reply to Sharkosaurus rex)

Post #: 29

RE: Japanese subs getting creamed - 12/9/2004 5:11:18 PM

Roughtor

Posts: 57
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From: Toronto/Gdynia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Akitsuki

May 1942... playing Japanese... everything is working great, maybe with the exception of repeated air raids by unescorted Nells from Rabaul against PM (1 out of 8 raids went without escorts, with 2 zero groups in Rabaul and 2 in Lae set to escort)... this decimated my Nells in 3 days... the weather is horrible... but still seems a little too much... but I can understand this...

did u set the escorting fighters to have Port Moresby as their target??? this helps a lot.

I did for two groups for two days... (without visible results) then as other "targets" appeared I switched back to commander discretion as I wasn't sure if setting target to PM wouldn't "reserve" them only for those missions...

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 30

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