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Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/16/2004 6:27:39 AM   
Admiral Scott


Posts: 625
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		Why do we often get leaders assigned to air groups that arent correct?
For instance, why do we get leaders for fighter groups that are better suited for bomber groups, and vice-versa?
Pilots already flying fighters should be BEST at being a fighter group leader, and be aggressive by nature of their job.
When I divide the AVG into 3 smaller groups for instance, I get 3 leaders that are cautious bomber types. Why are these guys flying fighters in the first place?
This isnt realistic; and not being able to see what these pilot's attributes actually are is a pain in the asss.
Deciding if and what new leaders are appropriate, is impossible without seeing everyones hidden attributes.
I hope patch 1.5 will fix this, and soon.
Post #: 1
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/16/2004 6:44:16 AM   
dday


Posts: 64
Joined: 7/9/2004
Status: offline 		Gosh I noticed that too, I think it wasn't address as an bug.Too many PP to correct the person to the right area killing all mine points, grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

(in reply to Admiral Scott)
Post #: 2
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/16/2004 6:46:57 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Why do we often get leaders assigned to air groups that arent correct?
For instance, why do we get leaders for fighter groups that are better suited for bomber groups, and vice-versa?
Pilots already flying fighters should be BEST at being a fighter group leader, and be aggressive by nature of their job.
When I divide the AVG into 3 smaller groups for instance, I get 3 leaders that are cautious bomber types. Why are these guys flying fighters in the first place?
This isnt realistic; and not being able to see what these pilot's attributes actually are is a pain in the asss.
Deciding if and what new leaders are appropriate, is impossible without seeing everyones hidden attributes.
I hope patch 1.5 will fix this, and soon.


good points! put this in the support forum.

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(in reply to Admiral Scott)
Post #: 3
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/17/2004 8:52:12 AM   
Admiral Scott


Posts: 625
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		bump

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 4
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/17/2004 9:47:39 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		I'd bump back, Admiral, but you're really not my type.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Admiral Scott)
Post #: 5
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/17/2004 10:21:12 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		HI, Leaders change after being exposed to combat. Assign a fighter leader and later he has became a patrol leader since he proved unsuited for fighter command. Assign a bomber leader to a fighter group and after time he is a good fighter leader.
There is no such thing as knowing in advance who will do well and who will fail. The listed catagorys are just suggested at that particular time. Only actual combat will filter out leader skills (and develop skills not present when leader is assigned to a group)
The same holds true for LCU leaders and Naval Commanders. A surface TF leader assigned to CV TF might develop the skill to command CV TF (or not)
When LCU fail to get good results dispite odds check their leaders.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 12/17/2004 3:22:03 AM >

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 6
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/17/2004 11:05:32 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

HI, Leaders change after being exposed to combat. Assign a fighter leader and later he has became a patrol leader since he proved unsuited for fighter command. Assign a bomber leader to a fighter group and after time he is a good fighter leader.
There is no such thing as knowing in advance who will do well and who will fail. The listed catagorys are just suggested at that particular time. Only actual combat will filter out leader skills (and develop skills not present when leader is assigned to a group)
The same holds true for LCU leaders and Naval Commanders. A surface TF leader assigned to CV TF might develop the skill to command CV TF (or not)
When LCU fail to get good results dispite odds check their leaders.


I don't remember anything about this, Russ. Is this fact or fantasy? If fact, I kinda like it because nobody really "knew" if leaders were good or notuntil the firing started, despite having been "top Man" in their field prewar. Sooooo.........you are saying that Yamaguchi, Spruance,Mitscher, Halsey etc might turn out to be complete shiite in carrier combat?

Seems awfully in depth to be fact to me though. Seems too many more important things have been whitewashed or underdeveloped (surface and land combat, naval logistics etc) for this to have made the cut.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 12/17/2004 4:09:37 AM >

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(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 7
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/17/2004 4:57:01 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

HI, Leaders change after being exposed to combat. Assign a fighter leader and later he has became a patrol leader since he proved unsuited for fighter command. Assign a bomber leader to a fighter group and after time he is a good fighter leader.
There is no such thing as knowing in advance who will do well and who will fail. The listed catagorys are just suggested at that particular time. Only actual combat will filter out leader skills (and develop skills not present when leader is assigned to a group)
The same holds true for LCU leaders and Naval Commanders. A surface TF leader assigned to CV TF might develop the skill to command CV TF (or not)
When LCU fail to get good results dispite odds check their leaders.


Interesting!

BTW, long long long time ago I asked whether leaders improve during whole campaign (i.e. over months and years of war) but there was no official (or BETA) answer...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 8
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/17/2004 5:29:56 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

When I divide the AVG into 3 smaller groups for instance, I get 3 leaders that are cautious bomber types. Why are these guys flying fighters in the first place?
This isnt realistic; and not being able to see what these pilot's attributes actually are is a pain in the asss.


Hi Ad Scott

first off, I think you should check your facts before complaining, even better with the AVG, as they did have bomber pilots with them (think some Transport as well) one they complained about as he crashed 5 planes during training and they wanted to make him a IJA Ace (believe he had trouble adjusting to the fact that a fighter didn't sit as high off the ground as a bomber did when landing)

and as others have said, a great leader in peace time may be worthless during war (Pappy's statement, I believe is "show me a hero and I'll show you a bum"

HARD_Sarge

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Post #: 9
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/17/2004 8:43:02 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

HI, Leaders change after being exposed to combat. Assign a fighter leader and later he has became a patrol leader since he proved unsuited for fighter command. Assign a bomber leader to a fighter group and after time he is a good fighter leader.
There is no such thing as knowing in advance who will do well and who will fail. The listed catagorys are just suggested at that particular time. Only actual combat will filter out leader skills (and develop skills not present when leader is assigned to a group)
The same holds true for LCU leaders and Naval Commanders. A surface TF leader assigned to CV TF might develop the skill to command CV TF (or not)
When LCU fail to get good results dispite odds check their leaders.


Interesting!

BTW, long long long time ago I asked whether leaders improve during whole campaign (i.e. over months and years of war) but there was no official (or BETA) answer...


Leo "Apollo11"


this has been asked before and the answer was yes

_____________________________


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Post #: 10
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/17/2004 10:22:01 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

HI, Leaders change after being exposed to combat. Assign a fighter leader and later he has became a patrol leader since he proved unsuited for fighter command. Assign a bomber leader to a fighter group and after time he is a good fighter leader.
There is no such thing as knowing in advance who will do well and who will fail. The listed catagorys are just suggested at that particular time. Only actual combat will filter out leader skills (and develop skills not present when leader is assigned to a group)
The same holds true for LCU leaders and Naval Commanders. A surface TF leader assigned to CV TF might develop the skill to command CV TF (or not)
When LCU fail to get good results dispite odds check their leaders.


There seem to be different messages about leaders coming from different people. Mogami, your post indicates that the "officer evaluation" in the Leader Selection screen is tentative and may not be accurate. But in an earlier thread ("Leaders and Benefits"), Mike Wood posted the following in response to my complaint about the players not having any way of knowing what leaders do. (The bold emphasis is my addition.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

What they do is contained in hundreds of lines of code spread out over dozens of functions. I added the descriptions instead of just showing raw values, because those values would be meaningless without the hundreds of lines of code and the way they interact. You can trust the officer evaluations.

Bye...

Michael Wood


So which is it? Are the leader descriptions accurate or not?

And even if they are, what do they mean? What benefit does an Air Combat TF get from having a Carrier Suitable TF Leader? (And "performs better" is not an answer. Why and in what way does it perform better?)

(Apologies for the broken record sounding rant and no flames are intended.)

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 11
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/18/2004 1:33:59 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

this has been asked before and the answer was yes


I know... I asked it (among others - though I was very vocal)...

BTW, the answer was not definitive "yes" - we were told that it is not known but hopefully it is a "yes"... only Mike Wood would know...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 12
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/21/2004 1:45:12 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		The sudden silence is deafening.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 13
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/21/2004 2:36:10 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

The sudden silence is deafening.


I am still hoping for definitive (official or semi-official) answer...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 14
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/21/2004 3:46:12 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Officer Evals in game are very generic. I don't see how you can decide anything about a leader before you have "tried" him in combat. Also since the numbers change as a result of combat (they only go up but they do not always go up) I'm not sure what the question is.
"Is there a way to tell a good leader from a bad leader?" Yes use him and see what results you get.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 15
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/21/2004 3:50:34 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Leaders are a mystery, and always will be. They definitely have an effect on combat. For the good, and for the bad! So spending PP's on officers is a little like gambling. You take your chances. Sometimes you win, more often you lose.

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Post #: 16
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/21/2004 4:05:57 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Officer Evals in game are very generic. I don't see how you can decide anything about a leader before you have "tried" him in combat. Also since the numbers change as a result of combat (they only go up but they do not always go up) I'm not sure what the question is.
"Is there a way to tell a good leader from a bad leader?" Yes use him and see what results you get.


Then I got my answer - in BOLD you wrote what I was waiting for!

Therefore your info is now semi-official proof for us - thanks Russell!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 17
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/21/2004 4:31:51 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Yes but I just made it up. I asked my wife. Morgan Faichild for an answer and that is what she told me to say. Yeah thats the ticket. Leaders do anything you want.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 18
RE: Wrong type air group leaders assigned - 12/21/2004 4:53:16 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Yes but I just made it up. I asked my wife. Morgan Faichild for an answer and that is what she told me to say. Yeah thats the ticket. Leaders do anything you want.


If that's how you do it... OK...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 19
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