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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> TF maximum speed

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TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 3:08:18 AM

adsoul

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Sorry if the question has already been answered but I haven't found anything in the forum. The manual (�6.1.7 pag 77) states: "The TF speed in hexes is equal to the slowest ship's speed in knots divided by 5, and is rounded up or down based on the computer's calculations. Regardless of how fast it is, no TF may move more than 6 hexes per turn". Well, I don't know if "per turn" does mean "every day" or "each phase" (i.e. night + day), anyway this doesn't seem occur to me. I tested TFs with the slowest ship is 33knots and she moved 6 hexes day 1 and 9 hexes both day 2 & 3. She had no fuel problem so no ops points have been expended, max react was set to zero, so I think I get the "real" maximum speed, but I just can't understand where those 9 hexes are coming from... it's more than 6 hexes a day and less then 6 hexes each hase. Any ideas?

Thanks everybody.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 3:16:47 AM

rogueusmc

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Ops points are expended in everything the ship does. Just travelling across the water. If they refuel, they will not travel as far because the refuelling took ops points that could be used for movement. Firing guns uses ops points. Dumping human waste uses them.

< Message edited by rogueusmc -- 12/18/2004 7:18:10 PM >

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 3:19:46 AM

tsimmonds

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Operating A/C uses Op points too. Try an SCTF with only DDs in it.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 3:25:20 AM

adsoul

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

Ops points are expended in everything the ship does. Just travelling across the water. If they refuel, they will not travel as far because the refuelling took ops points that could be used for movement. Firing guns uses ops points. Dumping human waste uses them.

OK, but this does not answer my question. My TF (docked & refueled the turn before) move 6 hexes the first turn and 9 the second turn. Why? They refueled again in first turn? And why 9 hexes the second turn? The TF is supposed to move 12 hexes if the maximum limit is "6 hexes per phase. Now I'm trying one more test with one-ship TFs that don't go to a port in order to be sure no fuel operation is involved.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 3:27:06 AM

adsoul

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Yep, I'm doing so. Anyway every a/c was set to stand down

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Operating A/C uses Op points too. Try an SCTF with only DDs in it.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 5:20:57 AM

witpqs

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I believe that movement is done in 2 phases per day, first nightime then daytime. That 9 should have been a combo of the 2 phases.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 5:43:13 AM

tsimmonds

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Just did a little test. An SCTF with an IJ DD division, fully fueled, with an order to move from Etorofo Jima to Saipan, moved 12 hexes in one turn, 6 hexes per phase.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 6:12:05 PM

adsoul

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Yep I agree. My tests show that DD TF's can move 12 per turn or 6 hexes per phase. Other TFs will achieve this speed very seldom. I think that depends on ops points (bombardment, air missions and so on) but especially refueling. I have the feeling that ships with very different endurance (like BBs and DDs) will refuel smaller boats almost each turn. A special thanks to Irrelevant for your help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Just did a little test. An SCTF with an IJ DD division, fully fueled, with an order to move from Etorofo Jima to Saipan, moved 12 hexes in one turn, 6 hexes per phase.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 6:19:09 PM

Ron Saueracker

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That's 720 nm a day. Hmmm... Are ships capable of these sustained full power runs? I'm personally glad of the high sys damage penalty. Keepsplayers reined in.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 7:26:13 PM

adsoul

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I think too 720 nm is a little bit too much especially 'cause there was alot of zigzagging, but as I told, TFs move so fast seldom (excluding DD TFs). The average speed I have seen for carrier TFs moving fast and with all a/c set to stand down is 9hexes a day (540nm) or 22.5 knots per hour and this seem pretty historical to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

That's 720 nm a day. Hmmm... Are ships capable of these sustained full power runs? I'm personally glad of the high sys damage penalty. Keepsplayers reined in.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 12/19/2004 7:39:05 PM

Mr.Frag

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6 hex x 2 (day/night) is going to be your maximum speed.

From this, aircraft launches and refueling will eat away at the maximum.

Since you are generally launching during the daylight only, you end up with a 4/6 split.

If you really want to get somewhere in a hurry, ground the planes and go!

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/15/2005 7:57:51 PM

Tristanjohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adso

I think too 720 nm is a little bit too much especially 'cause there was alot of zigzagging, but as I told, TFs move so fast seldom (excluding DD TFs). The average speed I have seen for carrier TFs moving fast and with all a/c set to stand down is 9hexes a day (540nm) or 22.5 knots per hour and this seem pretty historical to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

That's 720 nm a day. Hmmm... Are ships capable of these sustained full power runs? I'm personally glad of the high sys damage penalty. Keepsplayers reined in.

As it turns out a "routine" speed of 16 knots would be more like it, that is, for a modern warship going from point A to point B. Your quoted speed of 22.5 knots (constant) begins to approach the territory of a "high speed run." A ship's actual flank speed wouldn't be employed (as a rule) except in time of danger (torpedoes sighted or bandits coming in, for example) or by carriers when launching aircraft into still air. That isn't to say ships didn't occasionally sail full speed ahead, but this was reserved for when that kind of speed was really needed. You see, it tended to tear things apart in the engineering spaces.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/15/2005 8:15:21 PM

adsoul

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22.5 knots is hardly "flank speed" for fast CVs, CAs and DDs. In RL there are many cases of TFs who made high speed runs for several hours (for example Spruance off Midway the night of June 4th, I don't have books here but IIRC many hours at 25-26 knots). But I agree with you about tearing IMHO this was modelled accurately in UV and I suspect they have reduced system damage due to high speed runs because players have asked.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/15/2005 8:38:00 PM

Tristanjohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adso

22.5 knots is hardly "flank speed" for fast CVs, CAs and DDs. In RL there are many cases of TFs who made high speed runs for several hours (for example Spruance off Midway the night of June 4th, I don't have books here but IIRC many hours at 25-26 knots). But I agree with you about tearing IMHO this was modelled accurately in UV and I suspect they have reduced system damage due to high speed runs because players have asked.

Can't you read better than that? Please, go back and read again what I actually wrote.

What you're doing here is putting words in my mouth. It only confuses the discussion. And discussion around here is already confused enough, if you care to know.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/15/2005 10:42:08 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

That isn't to say ships didn't occasionally sail full speed ahead, but this was reserved for when that kind of speed was really needed. You see, it tended to tear things apart in the engineering spaces.

Might have done speed runs during local bases, but once you start talking the pacific, few ships had the fuel capacity to go tearing around. Most of the DD's can barely make it from PH to Oz at 12 knots forget about anything faster. Even then, the risk of damage at flank is rather high as you have said. It is an EMERGENCY speed, not something you do for fun.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 1:27:13 AM

Tristanjohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

That isn't to say ships didn't occasionally sail full speed ahead, but this was reserved for when that kind of speed was really needed. You see, it tended to tear things apart in the engineering spaces.

Might have done speed runs during local bases, but once you start talking the pacific, few ships had the fuel capacity to go tearing around. Most of the DD's can barely make it from PH to Oz at 12 knots forget about anything faster. Even then, the risk of damage at flank is rather high as you have said. It is an EMERGENCY speed, not something you do for fun.

After all this time you and I have found something we can completely agree on.

Of course the model's off here, too. I've experimented with this ingame and running at full speed hardly bothers ships at all. There ought to be critical breakdowns all over the place, but there are not. On the other hand, the model seems to add too much incidental damage (call it wear and tear) to ships even when they're used economically. I suppose that would be tough to get right, though, unless a lot of time were invested in just this one area of the simulation, so on balance it seems to work okay. More or less. Kind of.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 1:28:40 AM

freeboy

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quote:

to work okay. More or less. Kind of.

A are you a politican ? and
B.. you kiss your mom with those lips

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 3:10:38 AM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

There ought to be critical breakdowns all over the place, but there are not.

As the propulsion system is not modelled as a separate entity, we can't pop off boilers or throw screws to kill the speed. The solution was to just crank up SYS damage rates as soon as the ship exceeded it's cruise speed. It's not perfect, but folks learn quick enough that driving them hard means time spent sitting in port. It's the old scope creep, where does a feature actually become a drawback simply because it just makes things take more and more time.

One day, many years from now when we are doing WitP II ourselves, we'll put in a full ship model with all sorts of damage criticals to make ships far more painful to keep running. One of the other things I wanted had time permitted was storm damage. No tin can's in the Pacific went running around in those waters without getting their butts kicked. We couldn't do it as there is no weather system model running so storms are random instead of flowing across the map. (which would allow you to see whats coming).

( Don't take my WitP II statement to mean 2by3 has signed on to do it - yet!

)

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 3:18:31 AM

Grotius

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To the original poster: as you have no doubt gathered from this discussion, the manual meant to say a max of six hexes per 'phase', not per 'turn'. This perplexed me no end when I first got the game and saw TFs moving as much as 12 per turn.

Mr. Frag, as long as we're daydreaming about improvements to weather, here's one vote for monsoons in Burma, and even worse weather than what we have now in Alaska.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 3:33:24 AM

tsimmonds

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quote:

Mr. Frag, as long as we're daydreaming about improvements to weather, here's one vote for monsoons in Burma, and even worse weather than what we have now in Alaska.

We already have monsoons in Burma! In my game with Halsey we have had Tstorms in that area at least 80% of the time.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 4:37:24 AM

Grotius

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Hehe, I saw what the weather did in your game, Irrelevant. Ouch!

What I meant to say was that monsoons should slow down ground movement. And then there's the whole Burma railroad thing. Like I said, I was daydreaming. :)

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 4:47:34 AM

tsimmonds

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Grotius, you are quite right; monsoon had significant effects that should be felt by LCUs and LBA as well....

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 9:49:19 AM

Tristanjohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

There ought to be critical breakdowns all over the place, but there are not.

As the propulsion system is not modelled as a separate entity, we can't pop off boilers or throw screws to kill the speed.

You could have easily modeled that!

quote:

The solution was to just crank up SYS damage rates as soon as the ship exceeded it's cruise speed.

Give me a freaking break! That was your solution, not necessarily the only solution, much less a wise one.

You could have just as easily thrown in a 1/x chance for drive-train problems when ships were run at flank speed, with the chance for drive-train damage increasing, say, for each phase flank speed was maintained--you might even make that an exponential increase in chance for failure for more than two consecutive phases at flank speed, but I'd check with an engineer before doing so.

Now I'm not mathematician and don't pretend to be, but I'm confident that if I had the knowledge of how to write that equation expressd in code I could do so in no time at all. I'd guess Gary, if he wanted to, could do it in half an hour. Probably the same for Mike.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with "it's not possible." It has everything to do with preconceptions of how this project was going to come down before it ever started, and with Gary's own bad habits when it comes to his Pacific games. This same issue existed with UV and the same solutions were pointed out then for the developers to consider. I know that because I'm the one who pointed them out. Result? Absolutely no change of substance has taken place. I'm told that incidental damage has been toned down, but from my game play so far I have not been able to tell if this is true. It appears that incidental damage accrues at roughly the same rate as it did with UV.

Thank you.

quote:

It's not perfect, but folks learn quick enough that driving them hard means time spent sitting in port. It's the old scope creep, where does a feature actually become a drawback simply because it just makes things take more and more time.

That's one of the problems with this game. Players aren't "learning" anything of value from it, the way they might learn from a more accurate simulation. This game serves to unlearn people, or perhaps I should say dislearn them.

quote:

One day, many years from now when we are doing WitP II ourselves, we'll put in a full ship model with all sorts of damage criticals to make ships far more painful to keep running.

You still don't get it. If the model worked better our ships would be less painful to operate. When big guns fired there'd be a chance that concussive shock waves could take down the radar and maybe fire control for awhile, stuff like that would happen occasionally. But ships should not be required to go in for "refit" every month just from sailing from point A to B. That's insane, ahistorical, whacky, far out, dumb, crazy, unrealistic in the extreme, and so forth.

quote:

One of the other things I wanted had time permitted was storm damage. No tin can's in the Pacific went running around in those waters without getting their butts kicked. We couldn't do it as there is no weather system model running so storms are random instead of flowing across the map. (which would allow you to see whats coming).

I'm not convinced a simple storm frontage system might not have been successfully installed, per my suggestion two years ago or more. That would get us closer to the truth. Now that model could have been presented simplistically without serious complaints and would have added to both a sense of realism and play enjoyment.

As it stands, what precious little weather you do have is broken. How many times have I posted, and been ignored, that planes fly offensive missions in and out of cloud/storm hexes regularly? Five times now, six times, what?

Yes, ship damage from typhoons would be welcomed. That was a real problem. Go ask Halsey. Twice!

quote:

( Don't take my WitP II statement to mean 2by3 has signed on to do it - yet! )

Statement duly not taken.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 2:40:56 PM

Naskra

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System damage associated with movement is noticeably less in WitP than in UV. A cruise across the Coral Sea could cost as much as 6 sys dam in UV; I haven't seen anything near that in WitP.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/16/2005 8:39:03 PM

bradfordkay

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My personal feeling is that system damage is too high at mission speed and too low at full speed. I have no real data to support this, just a general feeling. My understanding is that mission speed involves sailing at cruiing speed up until the crucial portion of the operation, whence it changes to full speed. Am I wrong in that assumption?

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/17/2005 12:02:03 AM

rogueusmc

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quote:

My understanding is that mission speed involves sailing at cruiing speed up until the crucial portion of the operation, whence it changes to full speed.

My understanding also. They do tend to get higher sys damage at mission speed than cruise even when no engagements occur though.

< Message edited by rogueusmc -- 4/17/2005 12:03:58 AM >

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/17/2005 1:34:58 AM

tsimmonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

quote:

My understanding is that mission speed involves sailing at cruiing speed up until the crucial portion of the operation, whence it changes to full speed.

My understanding also. They do tend to get higher sys damage at mission speed than cruise even when no engagements occur though.

Depends on the mission. IIRC, bombardment and fast transport are the only missions that involve full speed at all. For other TF types, mission speed is cruising speed. Perhaps a review of TFM would be appropriate at this point.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/17/2005 2:38:31 AM

Tristanjohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

quote:

My understanding is that mission speed involves sailing at cruiing speed up until the crucial portion of the operation, whence it changes to full speed.

My understanding also. They do tend to get higher sys damage at mission speed than cruise even when no engagements occur though.

Depends on the mission. IIRC, bombardment and fast transport are the only missions that involve full speed at all. For other TF types, mission speed is cruising speed. Perhaps a review of TFM would be appropriate at this point.

Minelaying as well, in theory, though the program doesn't get this right half the time and so the minelayers 1) do not go in at night, 2) are sitting there during the day with mines still aboard and 3) retire at mission speed instead of flank.

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RE: TF maximum speed - 4/18/2005 8:27:38 PM

BraveHome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

quote:

My understanding is that mission speed involves sailing at cruiing speed up until the crucial portion of the operation, whence it changes to full speed.

My understanding also. They do tend to get higher sys damage at mission speed than cruise even when no engagements occur though.

Depends on the mission. IIRC, bombardment and fast transport are the only missions that involve full speed at all. For other TF types, mission speed is cruising speed. Perhaps a review of TFM would be appropriate at this point.

Review of TFM as ordered, sir!

Manual section 6.1.9 details full speed under the following circumstances:

When RETIREMENT is set, SC, ASW, BB, FT, MW TFs all move at Full Speed within 25 hexes of DH. Most all TFs with RETIRE also sprint away from DH for first move phase, as appropriate.

FT also does Full Speed on PATROL setting within 25 hexes.

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