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Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex...

 
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Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 8:44:25 PM   
IKerensky

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/7/2001
Status: offline 		.. is it legit or not ?

I mean did you plan that people can land in any hex or just in base hex ?

This question seems important, especially for gamebalance issue.

It is also beginning to really bother me because frankly there is no way you can defend anything, except an atoll if people can just ladn 5 or 6 division with no losses nor disruption and march to the base.... starting to get really pissed off..

Especially as numerous game design doesnt help to solve the pb. My surface combat force wont react to thoses landing by example... :(
Post #: 1
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 8:47:48 PM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure you can do it. But having a port-size of zero, offloading units and supply will be extremely slow (you could sail your combat TF there before much offloaded) - especially supply. Someone else would have to explain the effects of offloading supply in a non-base hex. Spoilage would be a problem - especially trying to supply your "5 or 6 divisions" - because there is and will never be any port or airfield to raise the spoilage threshhold.

< Message edited by byron13 -- 12/28/2004 6:48:30 PM >

(in reply to IKerensky)
Post #: 2
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:01:20 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Historically the Japanese did just that. They conducted unopposed landings near the places they wanted to go. As byron says, the unloading of supplies is so slooow at non base hexes that it offsets the advantages. Sail a combat TF and blast the bejesus out of the transports.

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to byron13)
Post #: 3
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:08:28 PM   
IKerensky

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/7/2001
Status: offline 		I am unsure about the unoading of supply BTW but the loading of unit is pretty fast... :(

And the fact I wont have fort to defend the hex is lame too...

Send a Surface , ok ...

But what did I do with the 10k japanese that already unloaded ?

Also you can bet where I am going to invade Japan.... Without fort to defend there is no way you can counter an invasion. And given enough AK in the sending force you wont have a lot of time either to send reinforcement...

BLAH...

I guess I am just pissed off by the 110% succes of my opponent bombers, need to cool down ;)

(in reply to kaleun)
Post #: 4
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:15:54 PM   
kellyc

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		As for the unloaded troops...well that's what bombardment missions are for. They WORK...trust me on that, I landed next to Kendari in one of my games, my opponent sailed in with force Z and crushed both my surface units, transports and then proceeded to make life on the 'beach' a living hell.
Just gotta keep the faith....

Sincerely
Kelly

(in reply to IKerensky)
Post #: 5
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:19:23 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline 		This is another thing that gets me.

Why is landing on a non-base hex slower than landing in the face of 10,000 men bent on killing you? It's not like you can move the ships up to the docks and offload when invading a base hex.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to byron13)
Post #: 6
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:20:20 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, No the problem is there is no disruption compared to landing at an empty port hex (where there should be less disruption then unloading over a beach. It needs to be addressed.
Currently even if you place CD units in these hexes they do not fire.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 12/28/2004 2:20:28 PM >

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to kellyc)
Post #: 7
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:29:29 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

This is another thing that gets me.

Why is landing on a non-base hex slower than landing in the face of 10,000 men bent on killing you? It's not like you can move the ships up to the docks and offload when invading a base hex.

Chez


Shhh, don't use logic... this is WitP! Just use your imagination a little. Sorry for the smart alec reply, it's not to you but my frustration with this game sometimes gets the best of me.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 8
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:38:41 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Just wait until players get to the point where the Allies are counter attacking and I bet you we will have 100% concensus on most issues. Right now it's the Allied player who has to put up with all these BS situations.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 9
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:38:58 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

Sorry for the smart alec reply, it's not to you but my frustration with this game sometimes gets the best of me.


No worries. I know exactly what you mean. I think this was one of those "play balance" things.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 10
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:41:45 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline 		Like everyone has said, send in a SC TF and blown the AKs to bits.. The 10K or even 100K troops on the beach wont be worth much without supply... and if you do it quick enough, they won't have much supply offloaded with them - maybe enough for one real battle, but after that they are useless.

Xargun

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 11
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:42:04 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Sorry for the smart alec reply, it's not to you but my frustration with this game sometimes gets the best of me.


No worries. I know exactly what you mean. I think this was one of those "play balance" things.

Chez


The concept of play balance, if it has actually been utilized here, annoys me with a game of this type. Want balance?, play Euchre or Chess or something.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 12
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:43:00 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Tee Hee, the landing above Naga sucks doesn't it? Unloading goes real quick if you use the small AP's size 1500 as the Japanese. Supplies unload slow, and the unit landed will only store internally about 1000 points over its need. All the rest is gone.

When the Allies start doing it, it will still be legit. Call it smart planning.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 13
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:48:04 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline 		2ndACR: The tactic is valid and I like to use it whether IJA or USA. My only complaint is the time it takes to offload in a non-base hex.

and Ron... 100% agree. Why model a historical period if the devs are going to change reality for play balance?

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 14
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 9:48:52 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Like everyone has said, send in a SC TF and blown the AKs to bits.. The 10K or even 100K troops on the beach wont be worth much without supply... and if you do it quick enough, they won't have much supply offloaded with them - maybe enough for one real battle, but after that they are useless.

Xargun


Incorrect...they can force an enemy unit to surrender. When people use AKs as trip wires etc, having a unit out of supply for a few turns,heck...even risking the units loss is no biggie.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 15
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 10:08:46 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Like everyone has said, send in a SC TF and blown the AKs to bits.. The 10K or even 100K troops on the beach wont be worth much without supply... and if you do it quick enough, they won't have much supply offloaded with them - maybe enough for one real battle, but after that they are useless.

Xargun


I actually did that with PoW and her companions... the result? They stuck 90% of their shells into one AK. Brilliant.

< Message edited by The Gnome -- 12/28/2004 3:08:51 PM >

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 16
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 10:28:37 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Like everyone has said, send in a SC TF and blown the AKs to bits.. The 10K or even 100K troops on the beach wont be worth much without supply... and if you do it quick enough, they won't have much supply offloaded with them - maybe enough for one real battle, but after that they are useless.

Xargun


I actually did that with PoW and her companions... the result? They stuck 90% of their shells into one AK. Brilliant.


Exactly...The will'o'wisp nature of ship location WITHIN agiven TF needs the old heave-ho. I would think that with multiple TFs in a hex some TFs are unsighted, but not ships WITHIN a given TF. Even worse when ALL TFs in same hex will be engaged by another enemy TF. They have it backwards at best.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 17
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 10:29:14 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		The issue still remains with the lack of disruption on these unimproved beaches versus the disruption incurred landing at a base and like Mogami said, no CD fire either!

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 18
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 10:30:58 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		Where's my pitchfork!? Bah, see what happens when I skip lunch?

(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 19
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 10:32:19 PM   
IKerensky

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/7/2001
Status: offline 		Well that suppose you have something to go and get past the many BB and CL ready to react :(

But frankly I think this is more a issue the developpers doesnt thought about than something they wanted people to use....

And as Mogami point out the fact there is no disruption nor losses nor anything is really annoying...

But I bet nobody will complain is I get 50 SS charge the 2nd marines in them and go land in an empty hexe in Japon ( many of them ) then just a bit of walkover some HI and thus before going back....

Seriously I wouldn't have complained but the current way the game engine manage combat ( no retreat or destroyed, no fort in non base hexes ) make it really gamey.

And no the North of Naga landing only suck because you cant react to it from Manilla, a peculiar place where I think the map should be somewhat revised.... The landings in DEI, Malaya is much more annoying and I cant imagine India-Australia if things continue this way...

Currently I cannot defend without risking total extermination. Something that is a bit annoying because it goes a bit against historical comportement and the reason why i want THE DEVELOPPERS word.

If they they no , this wasn't intented I can ask politely my opponent not to exploit the system too much... If they say this is a fair game then I will just kick my butt and shut up...

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 20
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 10:34:48 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, If the game treated non beach hexes correctly it would be fine to use them. Currently it is easier to land on sheer cliffs then over a real beach. The reason is these hexes do not trigger a "enemy in hex" check during the ship movement phase (when troops off load) So there is no disruption and no defensive fire.

I like to cut the road between Naga and Manila as well as the next guy. But the method I use is to land troops at Lammon Bay (a real beach) and drive from there.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 21
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 10:37:03 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		Lamon Bay has slow go terrain if you try to march out of it versus the virtual highway north of Naga!

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 22
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 10:56:43 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, One problem with reality is it is always slower then fantasy. It is a code loophole. A hex without a dot is not meant to be landed on. That is why there are dot hexes on coasts.
A good solution would be just to have the "TF cannot unload here and now" message when in such hexes.
Of course I have opponents do it to me and I don't say anything. But I don't do it. Does not mean I am better I just can't force myself to make plans that require the impossible.
(The difficult I plan all the time)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 12/28/2004 3:56:55 PM >

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 23
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 10:58:41 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		Works for me

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 24
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 11:39:13 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		loophole. You can also instantly load an LCU from a coastal hex if you select "Load troops only"

_____________________________


(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 25
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 11:54:11 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		This game needed waaaay more testing. Also needed design concept verification before it be came too late to do anything.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 26
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/28/2004 11:57:42 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		This same issue was brought up a couple of years ago for UV. The answer given was that it was not the intention to allow landings at non-dot/bases. Unfortunately the mechanics of the game do allow it. This was never fully addressed or corrected. You will never see the AI do it. Only in PBEM games does this get abused.

The only solution at this time is to use house rules. Too bad that new gamers to this system don't understand the potential for abuse. Hopefully they will read these forums and be forewarned.

_____________________________


(in reply to IKerensky)
Post #: 27
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/29/2004 12:13:13 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Setting a TF to react has no effect because TF only react when enemy TF enters a friendly BASE hex. I'm not going to spend too much time on this subject. The question was asked is this intentional and the answer is "No"
I agree with Ron. 5 or 6 more years of testing might have caught this. And I'll take the blame for not testing it. I see many things that never occured to me.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 28
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/29/2004 12:26:42 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Setting a TF to react has no effect because TF only react when enemy TF enters a friendly BASE hex. I'm not going to spend too much time on this subject. The question was asked is this intentional and the answer is "No"
I agree with Ron. 5 or 6 more years of testing might have caught this. And I'll take the blame for not testing it. I see many things that never occured to me.



Add the rest of us poor mortal testers.

_____________________________


(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 29
RE: Dev. Answer needed: Invading in no base hex... - 12/29/2004 12:35:09 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		The game is still "most excellent".

It's the reponses in the forum that this "is the way it's supposed to be", that get to me. People are only human, and nothing is ever perfect. Besides that's what house rules are for.

_____________________________


(in reply to IKerensky)
Post #: 30
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