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Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 6:01:35 PM

ETF

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OK I just got whacked hard in my PBEM game. Had 3 CV's in one hex of Wolje (sp?) in a light blue hex. I had a 1052 rating (98%) for I believe sorties. Well I got jumped by 4-6 Jap CV etc. I only launched less than about 10% of my bombers. Any idea on where I went wrong. I don't really understand the sortie rating thing? I mean aslong as its a high % of my total my planes will fly sortie after sortie until they run out of supplies bombs which is reflected in the 98%. So why do I have to port if I have good fuel status and my sortie rate is high? I think I'm missing something here. Two of the three CV's (one was Brit) where at sea for a long period of time.....morale was good.....
I take it my planes didn't fly because I was in a coastal hex?
Should I not get around 100-200 sorties a day for this time period in the war?
I had the Saratoa and the Hornet get destroyed. Normally they see to counter attack nicely. I had all my bomber sqn's on naval attack and all the morales where in the 90's.
One thing I did notice that none of my 58 float planes seemed to help in raising the DL of the enemy fleets 3-5 hexes away. They were all on naval search? hmmm
Anyideas....

< Message edited by ETF -- 12/28/2004 4:02:47 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 6:07:28 PM

IKerensky

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Ok first things firts:

- Where your CVs in one or several TF ?
- What where your squadron settings, each if possible ?
- Have you checked if your Cvs weren't overcrowded ? ( more than 10% plane over capacity )

Then we wil look after moral and meteo...

(in reply to ETF)

Post #: 2

RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 6:26:42 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KERENSKY

Ok first things firts:

- Where your CVs in one or several TF ?
- What where your squadron settings, each if possible ?
- Have you checked if your Cvs weren't overcrowded ? ( more than 10% plane over capacity )

Then we wil look after moral and meteo...

Once again, I hope people will begin to realize that "MORALE" should have nothing to do with strike launching. The fact that the game has been modelled based on this fallacy should not make it a checklist issue,it should make it a "feature to be changed" issue.

What morale issue historically kept airgroups from launching during a carrier operation/engagement?

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 6:34:44 PM

adsoul

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I bet Ron is making daily searches with "morale" as keyword... each and every time he finds a match he posts a complain about no flying pilots

Sorry, Ron, just kidding

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Post #: 4

RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 6:46:15 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adso

I bet Ron is making daily searches with "morale" as keyword... each and every time he finds a match he posts a complain about no flying pilots Sorry, Ron, just kidding

It's just that morale has/should have nothing to with any of this aside from performance during a mission. Morale is a determining factor in a units viability as a frontline unit, but the player makes that determination by pulling the unit out or leaving it in. It is not the place of individual pilots/leaders to determine whether orders will be followed based on morale. Military command structure simply does not operate as a democracy. Totally flawed concept here but it is a central design parameter here.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 6:55:34 PM

adsoul

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I could agree w/you (morale at best could influence how aggressively a pilot should have pressed his run or dive) but I think everybody has your concept now

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 6:57:11 PM

Mike Scholl

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Ron. Agree 100%. The idea of pilots telling CO's "nah.., I don't feel like
making an attack today" is truely stupid. Poor morale might cause a re-
luctance to press home an attack, but not to fly one. And it really SUCKS
when you have squadrons ordered to fly a naval attack that decide they
don't feel like it today and then get pasted sitting on their airfields and die
anyway.

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Post #: 7

RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 7:03:32 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adso

I could agree w/you (morale at best could influence how aggressively a pilot should have pressed his run or dive) but I think everybody has your concept now

That's good. Too bad game designers don't. Seems like past game design has more impact on overall design than fact.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 7:07:10 PM

Charbroiled

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I agree with Ron on "Would morale really affect whether a air unit launches a mission or not."

However, I can see where a unit with poor morale might take off, but may not aggresivally search for the target, and if they find the target, may not aggresivally and/or accuratlly attack the target.

How the designers set things up might not be realistically accurate, but it does add some sort of factor into the game other then 100% launch and 100% accuratlly attacking a target.

Maybe they should have made fatigue more of a factor on whether an air unit would launch, and called morale "dysentery" to reflect whether they could attack.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 7:13:07 PM

Strv103C

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I think it has something to do with the maximum number of planes per strike. It is on page 130 in the manual. It could be so that your strike was divided into two parts because of this rule (one big an one small) and the small one launched first. Perhaps the other one didn't find the target or something.

(in reply to ETF)

Post #: 10

RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 7:14:22 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I agree with Ron on "Would morale really affect whether a air unit launches a mission or not."

However, I can see where a unit with poor morale might take off, but may not aggresivally search for the target, and if they find the target, may not aggresivally and/or accuratlly attack the target.

How the designers set things up might not be realistically accurate, but it does add some sort of factor into the game other then 100% launch and 100% accuratlly attacking a target.

Maybe they should have made fatigue more of a factor on whether an air unit would launch, and called morale "dysentery" to reflect whether they could attack.

Granted, morale could mean more than just morale (operational readiness maybe...a mix of morale, fatigue, equipment state etc), but the player should have A)someway of better understanding the ramifications (if all aircraft are ready,they should be ready)and B)someway of manipulating it better (such as mission/target priorities and commitment level). Otherwise, get rid of morale affecting launch numbers.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 7:14:28 PM

adsoul

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
That's good. Too bad game designers don't. Seems like past game design has more impact on overall design than fact.

quote:

attack

Napoleon's fault IMHO... All those wargames where the morale impacts so much... Yeah, let Matrix designers alone and blame the old little Emperor

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 12

RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 7:27:52 PM

Charbroiled

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Myself, if the morale of my air units start getting low (>60), I put the unit on standdown until the morale comes back up, which it does fairly quickly (3-5 days). If morale seems to drop too quickly, I replace the leader with a higher leadership rating. This appears to help, but I'm not positive.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 7:49:11 PM

kaleun

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Also if morale is low, many of the units might be turning back due to "mechanical" problems long before encountering the enemy. I've heard this called "Rabaul knock"

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 8:03:40 PM

joey

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I was in the Navy. Morale has nothing to do with much of anything. If they say fly; you fly. Morale is not even an issue.

(in reply to kaleun)

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 8:04:04 PM

byron13

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According to Robert MacNamara, a study was done in the 8th Air Force about aborted missions. His group found that the majority of aborts by individual a/c for supposed mechanical reasons were false, and the crew just wimped out. Of course, this was probably earlier in the war. A group commander, LeMay (so maybe the 305th BG?) said that anyone that aborted would be court-martialed, and the aborts dropped precipitously.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 8:16:13 PM

erstad

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Don't have any historical data to argue either side, but note that the assumption that the morale factor solely represents individual pilots deciding to fly or not, and/or wimping out on the way, may not be the whole story. The base commander may be deciding not to fly missions, or to limit them. "Hmm, half the group was wiped out by the AA yesterday. I'll stand them down for a day or two and let them recover."

I bet one can find lots of historical examples where air groups did not fly every day for 30 days straight :-)

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 8:29:04 PM

byron13

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Getting back to the original question, did Matrix/2by3 take out the function that CV's launch with a penalty in shallow water or from a port or whatever the rule is/used to be in UV? Could that explain part of his problem?

(in reply to erstad)

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 8:49:29 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

Don't have any historical data to argue either side, but note that the assumption that the morale factor solely represents individual pilots deciding to fly or not, and/or wimping out on the way, may not be the whole story. The base commander may be deciding not to fly missions, or to limit them. "Hmm, half the group was wiped out by the AA yesterday. I'll stand them down for a day or two and let them recover."

I bet one can find lots of historical examples where air groups did not fly every day for 30 days straight :-)

Not the base CO's job, it's the job of the HQ head honcho...chain of command.They didnot fly because they were ordered to stand down. If ordered to go...GO!

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/28/2004 10:06:05 PM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Not the base CO's job, it's the job of the HQ head honcho...chain of command.They didnot fly because they were ordered to stand down. If ordered to go...GO!

Ya know, Ron, I think you are almost to the point of quoting me word for word way back during that "Question about LBA" thread I started.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/29/2004 1:01:44 AM

jwilkerson

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What this game ( and many others ) call "morale" actually represents many concepts ... rolled up into one ... that has to be called something ... and in this case ... it is called morale ... note that for air units in this game ... is also probably represents "readiness" or how worn out the unit is ... which could be something other than "morale" ... I could be very willing to die ... but still very tired ... these things being said ... since the days of UV some of us have lamented the reluctance of our air units set specifically on NAVAL to fly forth and die according to our orders ... the problem still exists ... although the current balance is about as good as it has gotten in UV and the feel has been approximately transfered to WITP. It was ( in UV ) worse when our carrier air units attacked ports unescorted and got slaughtered instead of waiting for an actual task force ( spotted farther away ) to come into range. At least we now have the "range" gauge to try to help control things. Land based air - which are fully rested ( 99 morale ) - still won't fly often - and this must only be because they have poor commanders or poor experience ( rule 7.2.2.5 ). So if you've got experience and good commanders and are fully rested and you have adequate escorts ... and you still won't fly ... then send in the save and see if it will get fixed.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/29/2004 1:30:34 AM

ETF

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Well I was one hex S/W of Wojte I had the Saratoga, Hornet and Furious in the TF. Being one hex in shallow water does that afftec anything? I had x2 F4F squadrons on the Sara and x1 each on the Hornet and Furious. Does CAP affect CAP rate. I did have about 87 F4F rise to the defence? Maybe they used up my sortie rate? The JAP had the usual 8 carriers in the area

All fighters were at 80% CAP.....I just wished I could have goten more than about 10-20% of my bombers airborne

Ok is it hopeless? I have the Enterprise, Hornet, Furious, Hermes and the Wasp is out in about 20 days ....its July 42? I have a better than average position re land wise.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/29/2004 1:42:55 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Not the base CO's job, it's the job of the HQ head honcho...chain of command.They didnot fly because they were ordered to stand down. If ordered to go...GO!

Ya know, Ron, I think you are almost to the point of quoting me word for word way back during that "Question about LBA" thread I started.

Wild thread that...like the early methods used for pulling teeth.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/29/2004 2:40:32 AM

cyberwop36

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ETF

Well I was one hex S/W of Wojte I had the Saratoga, Hornet and Furious in the TF. Being one hex in shallow water does that afftec anything? I had x2 F4F squadrons on the Sara and x1 each on the Hornet and Furious. Does CAP affect CAP rate. I did have about 87 F4F rise to the defence? Maybe they used up my sortie rate? The JAP had the usual 8 carriers in the area
All fighters were at 80% CAP.....I just wished I could have goten more than about 10-20% of my bombers airborne

If most of your fighters are tied up on CAP fewer are availible to escort your strike. If your guys decide they don't have enough escort to penitrate the enemies CAP they won't fly.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/29/2004 3:37:11 AM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Ya know, Ron, I think you are almost to the point of quoting me word for word way back during that "Question about LBA" thread I started.

Wild thread that...like the early methods used for pulling teeth.

Somehow, I think that is going to stand as my ultimate contribution to WiTP Lore. Or my defining moment here. Can't figure out which.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/29/2004 6:57:10 AM

bradfordkay

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quote:

I take it my planes didn't fly because I was in a coastal hex?

If the TF is in a base hex, only 50% of your aircraft should launch. (7.2.2.23, pg 135). Otherwise, a coastal hex shouldn't make a difference (unlike UV), unless they failed to inform us...

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/31/2004 12:09:14 AM

Sonny

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Ron. Agree 100%. The idea of pilots telling CO's "nah.., I don't feel like
making an attack today" is truely stupid. Poor morale might cause a re-
luctance to press home an attack, but not to fly one. And it really SUCKS
when you have squadrons ordered to fly a naval attack that decide they
don't feel like it today and then get pasted sitting on their airfields and die
anyway.

That's right. You tell 'em "Nah..." and you might get slapped by a general!

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/31/2004 2:35:18 AM

CMDRMCTOAST

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aircraft will only launch 50% of the aircraft from a base hex
but it says nothing about a coastal hex....
pg#135 of the manual.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/31/2004 3:23:14 AM

bordric

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They have a fix for the low moral, it is called the brig and court marshal.

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RE: Carrier Sortie rates? CV's got toasted any ideas? - 12/31/2004 5:07:24 AM

tsimmonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bordric

They have a fix for the low moral, it is called the brig and court marshal.

My moral has been low for years, that's why my morale has been so high

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