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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Leader Bug

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[Poll]

Leader Bug

I have not experianced the leader bug.

9% (34)

Have using Windows 98

0% (3)

Have using Windows XP

17% (66)

Have using Windows ME

1% (5)

Playing as Japanese

6% (24)

Playing as Allied

17% (66)

Matrix Scenario

17% (66)

Modified Scenario

4% (17)

PBEM

8% (32)

14% (54)

Total Votes : 367

(last vote on : 1/5/2005 7:00:33 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 11:15:31 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, A simple poll. As many as true.
Post anything I forgot (only have 10 slots)

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

Post #: 1

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 11:17:38 AM

WiTP_Dude

Posts: 1434
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

No, I've never seen it. I don't use the auto disband option though either.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 2

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 11:18:58 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, I use the auto disband but only for damaged ships and the TF normally does not have a leader other then ships CO.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to WiTP_Dude)

Post #: 3

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 11:20:07 AM

kellyc

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

Never seen it.

OS: WINME

Kelly

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 4

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 11:21:15 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, ME here as well.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to kellyc)

Post #: 5

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 11:25:29 AM

WiTP_Dude

Posts: 1434
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

Windows 2000

WiTP v1.21

< Message edited by WiTP_Dude -- 12/31/2004 4:47:26 AM >

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 6

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 11:46:19 AM

Mike Wood

Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline

Hello...

Are you polling for games started in version 1.40 or later or are you polling for games started before version 1.40?

Thanks...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, A simple poll. As many as true.
Post anything I forgot (only have 10 slots)

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 7

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 11:59:32 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, Yike another good point.
If you have had this occur is the game
1.40 pure
older version updated.
If older was bug pre 1.40 update.

One major problem in testing is the tester has to use the most current version. It is possible to produce a bug in a "hybrid" game that would never exist in a pure version game.
For Mike this means only games began in 1.40 can produce the required save he needs to fix.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Mike Wood)

Post #: 8

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 12:15:57 PM

kellyc

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

I'm at 1.40.

WinME.

Game started with 1.40

Sincerely
Kelly

_____________________________

Plankowner USS Kauffman (FFG-59).

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 9

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 2:25:40 PM

mucky

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/18/2004
Status: offline

The only bugs ive encountered are:

1) My allied TF suddenly recieving a jap commander!

...and...

2) The commander called ,WO (Not sure if it was a bug)

Windows XP, started new game with 1.4.

These two things haven't wavered my enjoyment of the game!

(in reply to kellyc)

Post #: 10

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 2:33:44 PM

Djordje

Posts: 537
Joined: 9/12/2004
Status: offline

XP SP2
PBEM as Japan
Started as 1.3, now 1.4

I've seen few dozens of leaders changed, just went through ALL of my ships last turn, spending several hundred PPs to replace fake leaders with normal ones.
I've noted several things:
- My warships were ok, none of them had leader changed, only merchants (AP,AK,TK,AO), MSW and ML ships had new fake leaders (not from original pool)
- Most of the new leaders were Japanese, though some of them were allied
- Allied leaders were about average and above average (45-70 leadership/inspiration), Japanese leaders were above average and brilliant (55-90 leadership/inspiration), and all of them (both Jap and allied) were described as carrier leaders
- Whenever I replaced fake leader with one from the original pool the fake leader dissapeared, he never entered pool and was nowhere to be found
- I think that MLs can be used to track at least some of the leader bug. MLs use very small leader pool with rank of ENS (or something like that, not in the game at the moment), so when the leader is changed with fake one it is easy to notice, as fake one will be Capt or higher. There are not too many ML ships, and pool for them is about one screen of skippers, not that much
- My admirals pool had some issues too, Ozawa (carrier TF leader) is nowhere to be found, Yamaguchi and Abe are ok, but Yamada O is strange. He is currently in command of Air Combat TF, but I can select him from pool to command another TF. It is the same leader twice, with the same description and leadership/inspiration values. I've put him in command of some ASW TF and had him command both at the same time, but I exited without saving so who knows what would have happened if the turn got generated. It is PBEM and I didn't want to risk losing him...
Forgot to mention, there were some majors and colonels commanding AKs too.

< Message edited by Djordje -- 12/31/2004 1:30:29 PM >

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 11

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 3:22:48 PM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

Mog, I submitted to the poll before reading Mikes comment.

XP sp2

Sen 15 un miodified, started as 1.3 and updated to 1.4. PBEM game

As Allies I have found a COL in command of a CA. I have a number of suspicious looking CPTs. MOst of them are in
charge of APS, AKS etc. and they have ratings like 30/35. They could be right, I just do not know. I haven't looked
at all units to see if there are other leader problems.

(in reply to Djordje)

Post #: 12

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 4:38:55 PM

BPRE

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline

Hi,

Maybe quite a stupid question but could we have a description of how the 'leader bug' looks like? I think I know but a detailed description on how to recognise it might help people who hasn't seen or bothered about it to detect if they have a problem.
From different postings I gather that it is when ship captains (leaders) all of a sudden are replaced by a different leader. Quite often from the other side. It happens mostly to the Allies.

Some details that I think might be helpful in tracking the fault:
Is it only happening to ship leaders or to TF leaders also.
Was the TF auto created (I get the impression that you, Mogami, are very much into details and would guess that you always handpick your ships and since you haven't seen it..) or did you handpick the ships.
Was the leader assigned by you or did you let the AI choose him?

Some of the questions above might seem stupid but I haven't bothered about the leaders in my own games (I'm only playing the AI so I can live with bad performances among my units) and I have no experience in PBEM games so I hope you understand.

Maybe you could have a chat with Mike and the other developers about a set of information that they think would help them in narrowing down the problem. Both on how to detect it and what info they need that isn't available in a save file.

Best regards
BPRE

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 13

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 5:01:37 PM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

WinXP, game upgrade to 1.4, standard scenario.
Two that I've caught so far. A Dutch LT in charge of US sub. A IJA Maj in charge of? Can't remember, there're both dead now.

I never auto form or disband. No AI control or auto anything.
Haven't lost a TF commander. Once I spend the PP's I always keep that officer in charge of a TF. I rotate ships in and out to keep the TF commander active. This is something I do to stop swapping the best TF commanders with fleets that are in combat halfway around the world in one turn. That's something that I consider a problem too, leader swapping. This goes for LCU's also.

_____________________________

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 14

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 5:28:15 PM

mucky

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/18/2004
Status: offline

Quick question: Could this be considered as the leader bug?

Because im starting to lose leaders fast!

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Halsey)

Post #: 15

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 5:31:59 PM

Oliver Heindorf

Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline

W2k I use only. Does this matter much regarding to the *bug* ( I have never seen it btw. )

No ME ( kiddie OS )
No XP ( Spyware from MS included )
No 98 ( too old )

_____________________________

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 16

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 5:57:30 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

I have seen it in a fresh 1.4 PBEM game using Lemurs 4.0 playing as the Japanese.

I use ME.

(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)

Post #: 17

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 6:49:52 PM

Admiral Scott

Posts: 625
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline

I have XP and have the leader bug.

Could this be a Windows XP problem?

< Message edited by Admiral Scott -- 12/31/2004 11:50:48 AM >

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 18

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 7:29:38 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, In a PBEM game I wonder if it is the computer/Operating system the Japanese use that matters most? Or does the bug occur during orders phase?

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Admiral Scott)

Post #: 19

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 8:13:00 PM

von Murrin

Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline

v1.40, Win2k

Have seen it as Japanese and Allied in both PBEM and AI.

It's mostly minor units or backwater locations as nothing I've checked from turn to turn has had the substitution that I can use to send in a save.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 20

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 8:27:01 PM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

I posted in the other thread before I saw this one. My most recent games, both PBEM and AI, are v. 1.30 patched to 1.40, so I know that they are not helpful. I have XP, both of the people I have been playing against have XP. Mike Wood's work on 1.40 seems to have helped (I no longer lose carrier captains or TF commanders, and I can get rid of the dreaded WO 0/0s when they show up). When I was playing before 1.30, the problem was so severe that by mid-42, I was in danger of having the entire US Navy being run by Japanese pilots.

(in reply to von Murrin)

Post #: 21

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 8:39:12 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, Are the non XP players running the Japanese or Allies and if Allies what OS are the Japanese players using?

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 22

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 8:43:40 PM

kellyc

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

PBEM

Updated to 1.4, started under 1.4
Playing as Japanese with WINME.
Opponent is using 98 I believe.
Haven't seen any leader bugs yet but I haven't talked it over with my opponent.
You have to understand we're both 'Nick the new guys' so not overly sure what
to look for.
Kelly

_____________________________

Plankowner USS Kauffman (FFG-59).

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 23

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 8:43:47 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

I play nothing but the Japanese side. I am using ver 1.4 and running it using WinME.

2 PBEM games are fresh starts under 1.4 using Lemurs 4.0
1 PBEM game continued from 1.21 using Lemurs 3.1 Beta

The fresh games are with Ron and Pzb
Continued game with Panzer Hortland.

Ron has seen the leader bug already, both Ron and Pzb report wild differences in playback
Have heard nothing from Panzer on anything wrong yet.

I have had units vanish with Ron and Panzer.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 24

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 8:44:42 PM

dtravel

Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline

W98SE, as Allies vs. Jap AI, standard Matrix scenario.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 25

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 9:37:50 PM

dday

Posts: 64
Joined: 7/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

The only bugs ive encountered are:

1) My allied TF suddenly recieving a jap commander!

...and...

2) The commander called ,WO (Not sure if it was a bug)

Windows XP, started new game with 1.4.

I was using Win ME, now using XP. I found alot of problems with Me, but now its the leaders bug.

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 26

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 9:55:01 PM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline

Win XP Pro

WitP v 1.40

Have found it bad (although not nearly as bad in 1.3) in;

Official Scenario 15 and 16
Modded Scenario 15 and 16
Test verisions of War Plan Orange

I have found that I really now only lose leaders when a TF seperates at sea due to damaged ships. When it happens, it replaces the TF leader.

EDIT: I play only Allied, but when testing Japan in War Plan Orange I have still found it, although not to the same extent.

Also, under new 1.4 games, leader bugs seem, instead of replacing with Majors or 1LTs, are replacing with unkown Staff Officers more than anything.

EDIT 2: Also, I never use auto anything.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 12/31/2004 1:54:15 PM >

_____________________________

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Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to dday)

Post #: 27

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 9:56:41 PM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

It's going to be certain combinations probably.

1. Never Experienced
2. XP Home
3. Allied & Japanese
4. Matrix Scenarios
5. AI only
6. All patch versions
7. Leader selection:
7a. When leaders important, auto selection ON and then change leader if needed (rare)
7b. When leaders not importent, auto selection OFF then never change leader

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 28

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 10:13:30 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, I never use auto leader. When a new TF is formed changing to a new leader is free so if TF requires more then a ship CO to command I pick the leader when I make the TF.
I do not assign leaders to TF composed only of transports and escorts.
Once I form a TF that I assign a leader to the TF is maintained (ships may come or go but the TF remains) If I do disband a TF and then reform it later I assign the old leader again (unless he has really screwed up a few times)
I don't auto anything but that is only because early in game I worry about the enemy. After I have a secure route between bases I form a TF assign a mission (normally supply runs) and then set to auto control. But these TF never have leaders other then ship CO.

When flagship of TF is sunk the leader is considered killed. You may get a message "so and so killed" or you may not.

If you leave "Leader Auto select" ON then everytime a TF is formed a leader is selected from pool to command TF. I don't want Admirals commanding solo AK or PC or what not and then have them exposed to being lost if ship sunk by sub or other enemy attack.
That is reason I leave it set to off

I will claim this feature as one of mine. Before every TF was assigned a leader and I had to remove flag officers from TF where I didn't want them. I cried to Mike Wood and he installed this option for me.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 12/31/2004 3:17:35 PM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 29

RE: Leader Bug - 12/31/2004 10:43:50 PM

jwilkerson

Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline

Hum - didn't know about the free choice after forming ... I had been paying for the important ones when forming until I found the auto leader button ... but I've been clicking it every time I form a TF ( where I care ). And I started noticing the bug right after that - at least for TF. This wouldn't seem to explain how allied leaders get into Japanese air units though.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 30