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RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 3:58:49 AM   
shredder

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 1/7/2005
Status: offline 		I'm cautiously optimistic with HOI II. If the wargamer review isn't accurate in it's glowing recommendation, then they will suffer in credibility. I would think that with a release this big they will have to be objective or suffer the consequences. As an aside, I find it an interesting contrast between Paradox and Matrix. The former sells their wargame for $40, comes in a DVD case, and includes a printed manual. Matrix, on the other hand, charges $60, CD comes in a paper sleeve, and no printed manual. I've always gritted my teeth when purchasing a Matrix game because of the cost and no manual, but when another company can come out with a game such as HOI II for much less the cost AND a manual, well.... it makes me look at Matrix with a less than favorable impression and even though I enjoy playing their games, I doubt I'll be making any purchases in the future. Probably my loss, but I'm voting with my pocketbook.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 31
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 4:23:28 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

< Message edited by Veldor -- 1/11/2005 5:51:49 PM >

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Post #: 32
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 4:26:35 AM   
SlapBone


Posts: 269
Joined: 7/27/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

I will buy SC2 upon release.




Ditto on that one.

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Post #: 33
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 4:31:06 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

< Message edited by Veldor -- 1/11/2005 5:52:04 PM >

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Post #: 34
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 4:34:47 AM   
Zeta16


Posts: 1199
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Columbus. Ohio
Status: offline 		Whats the big deal about a manual, I rather have it on the computer so at least they can fix it if need be. The first HOI manual was a really big pile of ****.

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(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 35
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 4:38:39 AM   
Error in 0


Posts: 248
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shredder

I'm cautiously optimistic with HOI II. If the wargamer review isn't accurate in it's glowing recommendation, then they will suffer in credibility. I would think that with a release this big they will have to be objective or suffer the consequences. As an aside, I find it an interesting contrast between Paradox and Matrix. The former sells their wargame for $40, comes in a DVD case, and includes a printed manual. Matrix, on the other hand, charges $60, CD comes in a paper sleeve, and no printed manual. I've always gritted my teeth when purchasing a Matrix game because of the cost and no manual, but when another company can come out with a game such as HOI II for much less the cost AND a manual, well.... it makes me look at Matrix with a less than favorable impression and even though I enjoy playing their games, I doubt I'll be making any purchases in the future. Probably my loss, but I'm voting with my pocketbook.


Hi shredder
I can see your point, and I will probably never spend 60$ on any game. But Matrix has some very good titles belove that price. Titles that does not require a patch each month in a faint hope of making it playable..:) One all time favourite is the "Highway to the reich", and is something you definitely should try!

I have played HoI ever since it was released, and it certainly has an ambivalent feeling towards it. My greatest concern was that I did not find it to be such a STRATEGIC game, as it was always a constant nitpick to control airfleets, sea fleets and armies, just so they did not evaporate because they were strolling in a "low infrastructure province", meeting an AI controleld uber-stacked fleet and similar nonsens. And their patch-policy (introduce atleast 1 'bug' to fix another 'bug') has made me lost alot of faith in HoI2. The fact that HoI2 has worse graphics (the provinse text) than in HoI1 and still apparantly the same need for nitpicks is a downer. The demo only convinced me to not buy this title, atleast not until its in the bargain bin.

What I need in a Grand strategy game is: a C&C system as in Highway to the reich; Arial forces truly strategic in the sense of abstracted, as in Korsun pocket, fleet action a little more interesting and long lasting than in HoI, and no moron rules just so that the AI can get the upper hand; complex support system which may make a game in the game and finally, if possible in the short time frame, a 'Civilization' feeling of building up your country. I am apparently asking too much..


JT

(in reply to shredder)
Post #: 36
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 5:02:37 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shredder

...Matrix, on the other hand, charges $60...


Take a look at Gates of Troy. Only $20 with an excellent PDF manual as part of the digital download. Looks like a very good game from my limited play so far. It could be the best bargain at Matrix, or anywhere, right now.

As a disappointed HOI owner I'm certainly sitting on my wallet right now wrt HOI2.

(in reply to shredder)
Post #: 37
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 5:36:38 AM   
fahdiz


Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'd be the first to agree, except that normally with a new graphics system comes a better user interface as well. (WiTP vs. PacWar as one example). And both would add value to the game and are normally part of any "remake".


The user interface in HoI2 is vastly improved from its predecessor. It is much more well laid-out, and air and naval combat have received a complete overhaul.

Although it shares a similar visual style with HoI, it is definitely a new game. And it is much better for it.

(Disclaimer - I beta-tested HoI2.)

< Message edited by fahdiz -- 1/6/2005 7:37:01 PM >

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 38
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 7:05:26 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline 		I'll wait for the UK store release in six weeks or so, at least.

That should let opinions pan out (IMHO the value, or lack of it, of this sort of game only becomes apparent after weeks, not hours), and maybe the first patch to arrive. Opinion was very favourable on HoI 1 too (including mine) - but the longer you played, the more it sucked, as its flaws became ever more obvious

< Message edited by Hertston -- 1/7/2005 5:06:33 AM >

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 39
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 9:02:15 AM   
Koper


Posts: 34
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

The people who actually own the game(like me) will laugh out load at such rubbish.


Laugh all you want, I never said I wouldn't buy the game, I will just wait until it's under $15 on ebay within "oh I'll give it 2 months" on this one. ;)

My policy is not to support Paradox, never said I wouldn't "play" their games. ;)


Ravinhood, no one expects from you buying this game - nor even considering it.

What we expect are reasonable arguments. Saying that it's the same game just because you have seen one screenshot and it looks similar it's like saying that all games that use hexes are in fact the same, so why bother?

PS. Waiting a while might be good idea for more demanding players, anyway. After all, patches rarely make game worse then it was at the start. As I see things right now, HoI2 simply starts from much higher level then HoI1 ever reached. Of course you can say that is because HoI2 is a patch - whatever. Following this thinking, Windows 95 was a patch of Windows 3.11, Doom was a patch for Wolfenstein and Spartan is a patch for Legion...

< Message edited by Koper -- 1/7/2005 7:42:34 AM >

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 40
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 9:17:48 AM   
Koper


Posts: 34
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

I'd be the first to agree, except that normally with a new graphics system comes a better user interface as well. (WiTP vs. PacWar as one example). And both would add value to the game and are normally part of any "remake".


Sure. That's the point of changes in HoI2 interface, compared to the HoI1. Notice, that they have also left a lot of elements known from HoI1 to not cause unneccessary problems for those, who played HoI1 before. After all, why change things that worked?

quote:


Thats not a good comparison at all. WiTP is a TOTAL remake of a decades old classic. HOI2 is a remake of a bad game a few years old (Even if it did finally get fixed and made better). WiTP redid eveything from graphics to user interface on down to the gameplay itself.


So, Paradox changed gfx only in part of the interface, leaving the rest as it was. You have just said, that it's only few years old. Maybe there was no need to do complete overhaul (compared to PacWar/WiTP)?

quote:


I'd like to buy it but I really feel like I already did. Its stable and bugfree only because 90% of the code is the same as last time around (another huge difference from WiTP vs PacWar).


Sorry, but you are very wrong here. You judge scale of changes in code by gfx? I've mentioned tons of new elements of the game. And I've totally ignored completly redone AI system, new code of MP games and many other things... Do you think those are all "old code"?

quote:


I just don't have the same problem with SC2 vs. SC. SC2 not only expands and improves on SC greatly but has a totally redone (ie greatly enhanced) graphics system and interface. A 'TRUE' remake. It certainly would appear that the vast majority of this game was new code as well. Not to mention SC turned out to be everything it claimed to be and, as very seldom is the case, a WHOLE lot more! It was also very inexpensive. I'm not even much of a Battlefront fan, but I will buy SC2 upon release.


So this is really about the gfx?

Sorry, but SC2 looks for me like gfx patch for SC + editor. SC was good, but replayability value was next to zero in single player game. No real change, no real options... Maybe it's PBEM heaven, but I'm not big fan of PBEM gaming.

I hope adding editor means that SC will get at least 10% of the modding potential of Paradox games, which can make it more then "one shot" game that you play few times then put on the shelf.

< Message edited by Koper -- 1/7/2005 7:35:45 AM >

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 41
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 11:32:45 AM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline
quote:

Whey you write an "unbiased" review, one certainly doesn't put a phrase into it like the one above "quite simply" the greatest", that is very biased and not the truth. Because for it to be the "truth", everyone would have to agree with him. Not what I would call professional journalism. The review reeks of "juvenile delight", which goes along with his young adult age I'm sure.


I can tell who has studied up on their lawyer grammar and formal English :P

At least they did not use the term "Bestest!"

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Post #: 42
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 2:53:33 PM   
CBase

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 5/25/2002
Status: offline 		HOI2 has been rated by 27 users over on Gamespot for an average of 9.8. I can’t recall ever seeing a game rated that high by Gamespot’s readership. Is somebody stacking the deck or is this game that good?

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 43
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 2:56:27 PM   
Warfare1


Posts: 658
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CBase

HOI2 has been rated by 27 users over on Gamespot for an average of 9.8. I can’t recall ever seeing a game rated that high by Gamespot’s readership. Is somebody stacking the deck or is this game that good?


Take those ratings with a HUGE grain of salt.

Fan boys are trying to stack the deck.

By doing so, it makes such numbers practically worthless.

Wait until the game is out and has been played by a wide variety of people.

(in reply to CBase)
Post #: 44
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 2:57:22 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

I hope adding editor means that SC will get at least 10% of the modding potential of Paradox games, which can make it more then "one shot" game that you play few times then put on the shelf.


10%?? Players will have full editing capability with the SC2 Editor, plus the ability to create new maps and new games. The question may well be whether HOI2 has the modding potential of SC2.

It's interesting how two non-Matrix games (HOI2 and SC2) attract so much chatter over here. Perhaps it's a sense that GGWAW and these other two titles are all in hot competition with each other. I suggest they are all complimentary. Many fans of WWII grand strategy gaming will probably end up with all three titles on their PC, and will play them all more than a few times. Gents, we're entering a Golden Age of WWII grand strategy gaming in 2005.

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 45
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 3:17:23 PM   
Koper


Posts: 34
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


10%?? Players will have full editing capability with the SC2 Editor, plus the ability to create new maps and new games. The question may well be whether HOI2 has the modding potential of SC2.




I've played SC, I've played HoI1 - and modded it. SC2 list of editor features didn't really impressed me.

New maps? New games (whatever that means)? In HoI2 you can set your battle scenario (see demo) anywhere in the world, change virtualy everything, starting from interface gfx and ending on the elements of combat calculations. In HoI1 there was a mod located in Great War period, with full set of WWI units, events, technologies, countries and so on... As I said, SC2 editor would have to be really good to match that.

But I guess we are off-topic now - we can return to this, when we see first SC2 reviews.

< Message edited by Koper -- 1/7/2005 1:21:42 PM >

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 46
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 3:31:48 PM   
CatLord


Posts: 312
Joined: 10/21/2002
From: Lausanne, Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

It's interesting how two non-Matrix games (HOI2 and SC2) attract so much chatter over here. Perhaps it's a sense that GGWAW and these other two titles are all in hot competition with each other. I suggest they are all complimentary. Many fans of WWII grand strategy gaming will probably end up with all three titles on their PC, and will play them all more than a few times. Gents, we're entering a Golden Age of WWII grand strategy gaming in 2005.
A most sensible comment...

Cat

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(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 47
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 4:54:37 PM   
Kung Karl

 

Posts: 323
Joined: 7/1/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CatLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

It's interesting how two non-Matrix games (HOI2 and SC2) attract so much chatter over here. Perhaps it's a sense that GGWAW and these other two titles are all in hot competition with each other. I suggest they are all complimentary. Many fans of WWII grand strategy gaming will probably end up with all three titles on their PC, and will play them all more than a few times. Gents, we're entering a Golden Age of WWII grand strategy gaming in 2005.
A most sensible comment...

Cat


I agree. Why bother what company that has made the game? If HoI1 sucked don't play it. But if HoI2 is great don't rob yourself from a good gaming session.

Myself I don't care if a company have mad 100 worthless game if the 101 game is awsome, I will play the 101 game then. Ok, be sceptic but if the game is great buy it. My intention with this thread was not to make everyone rush out and buy HoI2. I simply wanted everyone to keep an eye on the game so you don't miss a good WW2 strategic game.

I will get Hearts of Iron 2, Strategic Command 2 and World at War and have a blast with them all.

< Message edited by Kung Karl -- 1/7/2005 2:56:39 PM >

(in reply to CatLord)
Post #: 48
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 5:35:34 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kung Karl

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

It's interesting how two non-Matrix games (HOI2 and SC2) attract so much chatter over here. Perhaps it's a sense that GGWAW and these other two titles are all in hot competition with each other. I suggest they are all complimentary. Many fans of WWII grand strategy gaming will probably end up with all three titles on their PC, and will play them all more than a few times. Gents, we're entering a Golden Age of WWII grand strategy gaming in 2005.
A most sensible comment...

Cat


I agree. Why bother what company that has made the game? If HoI1 sucked don't play it. But if HoI2 is great don't rob yourself from a good gaming session.

Myself I don't care if a company have mad 100 worthless game if the 101 game is awsome, I will play the 101 game then. Ok, be sceptic but if the game is great buy it. My intention with this thread was not to make everyone rush out and buy HoI2. I simply wanted everyone to keep an eye on the game so you don't miss a good WW2 strategic game.

I will get Hearts of Iron 2, Strategic Command 2 and World at War and have a blast with them all.



Amen....the debate has ended, go in peace.....

< Message edited by J P Falcon -- 1/7/2005 10:36:24 AM >

(in reply to Kung Karl)
Post #: 49
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 5:54:15 PM   
benpark

 

Posts: 3884
Joined: 8/12/2002
Status: offline 		The game isn't available here in New York City yet. Everyone has it in next week.

What's up with the Paradox forums? Down for 2 days....

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Post #: 50
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 7:27:49 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		I've been watching the Paradox HOI2 forum and having a good laugh at all the howling about EBGames constantly pushing the delivery date back. So I think the forum is up.

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 51
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 7:29:58 PM   
CatLord


Posts: 312
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From: Lausanne, Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

What's up with the Paradox forums? Down for 2 days....

It's currently working...

(well, at least the forums are working: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum )

Cat

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Post #: 52
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 7:42:17 PM   
IainMcNeil


Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		I've been playing SC and am enjoying it, but I am surprised at how basic it is and how at times it is completely unrealistic (carriers can bombard ground units with inpunity, but air fleets cant!?, City garrisons can be bombarded by fleets with impunity, though if you target an empty city it returns fire!).

The real time aspect of HOI & HOI2 doesn't appeal to me at all. I can't even muster the interest to try the demo. I'll check out SC2 when its released. I loved the old Panzer General games and Clash of Steel, which is what SC reminds me of.

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Post #: 53
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 7:46:13 PM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		GRRR, just when PG3D got things right by replacing the Assault edition with the Scortched Earth edition, the project is killed :(

Why is it bad titles tend to often out produce the good ones?

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Post #: 54
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 8:11:23 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		To get back somehwat on topic, I see Paradox will not allow any bugs to be posted in the HOI2 forums. People have to email them to Paradox instead. Apparently the previous bug forums for HOI, CK, and other games took up too much support time for Paradox.

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 55
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 8:48:53 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CBase

HOI2 has been rated by 27 users over on Gamespot for an average of 9.8. I can’t recall ever seeing a game rated that high by Gamespot’s readership. Is somebody stacking the deck or is this game that good?



Now, let's look at the 15 players votes at Gamerankings.com
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/920609.asp?q=Hearts%20of%20Iron

6.6% overall by players reviews, quite a significant difference of opinion when you have a larger market placing votes than the ones just at Gamespot.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 1/7/2005 1:52:32 PM >

(in reply to CBase)
Post #: 56
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 9:05:09 PM   
CatLord


Posts: 312
Joined: 10/21/2002
From: Lausanne, Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

To get back somehwat on topic, I see Paradox will not allow any bugs to be posted in the HOI2 forums. People have to email them to Paradox instead. Apparently the previous bug forums for HOI, CK, and other games took up too much support time for Paradox.

Well, I am a moderator on the Paradox forums, and I was in charge of the Crusader Kings bug forum, and to be honest I am glad they put in place a new system.

Yes, it was burning too much time both for us, moderators, and for Paradox.

You just cannot imagine how much "bugs" people were reporting which were NOT bugs, or when they were bugs (and CK, contrary to HoI2, was plagued by a lot of bugs at the beginning unfortunately), you couldn't have them to give you the save with it to help you reproduce it (or any explanations about how to do it). Plus, an incredible number of entries were just duplicates because people never read buglist.

I get burn out at the task quite quickly and so were several other people, which, at first, were very enthusiastic about helping the gamer's community over there (exactly like moderators are here).

Paradox is taking a new approach which is explained there:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179636

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179640

and there:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3713800&postcount=9

Basically, they have hired someone to specifically look at the bug emails and directly feed the developer's database with relevant report. And they want to publish the bug list regularly (I have to see the first bug list published by Matrix Game or 2by3 on War in the Pacific...).

Let's see how it works... (And I don't mind as I am no HoI2 moderator ).

BTT, I have played the game, and found it very stable myself.

As a player, and both a Paradox and Matrix fan, there are some things I dislike in it, and some things I really like, so overall it is quite enjoyable IMHO.

Cat

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(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 57
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 9:19:17 PM   
benpark

 

Posts: 3884
Joined: 8/12/2002
Status: offline 		I am looking to buy the game, but this new system of dealing with bugs is very badly timed. It may be for whatever reason stated, but it really is a little odd given the previous games' record with bugs.
Frankly, it makes me a bit wary of the game, and that's not good.

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(in reply to CatLord)
Post #: 58
RE: Review of HoI2 over at wargamers - 1/7/2005 9:30:10 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shredder
I've always gritted my teeth when purchasing a Matrix game because of the cost and no manual, but when another company can come out with a game such as HOI II for much less the cost AND a manual, well.... it makes me look at Matrix with a less than favorable impression and even though I enjoy playing their games, I doubt I'll be making any purchases in the future. Probably my loss, but I'm voting with my pocketbook.

Those who bemoan the lack of a paper manual obviously don't appreciate how much better a well-conceived .pdf document open in Adobe Reader is.

That's not to say, of course, that the WitP manual was particularly well conceived ...

(in reply to shredder)
Post #: 59
RE: Revew of HoI2 at wargamers - 1/7/2005 10:27:58 PM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Thats what happens once you've lost your customers faith. It costs you to get it back.
"This time it's gonna be different, honest!" How many times have we heard that in our lives? They dropped the ball and Matrix picked it up...will they win the Superbowl?

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A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
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Post #: 60
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