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Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 6:12:18 PM   
norsemanjs

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Enderlin, ND, USA
Status: offline 		Theatre: China

Location: SW Wuhan

Situation: Japanese have taken Wuhan, some isolated chinese units are SW of Wuhan. The japanese units have completely surrounded these cut off chinese forces. After some preliminary bombardment by air and artillery shock attacks ensue. For 3 days shock attacks take place at odds of 50-80:1. Japanese forces take surprisingly large losses but since they are in top condition it is not nearly enough to slow down the assault. The chinese forces also take heavy casualties and are fortified to level 2. But even after 3 days they are still hanging in there.

I have taken several cities by encirclement at lower odds and heavier fortifications in a single day with the complete loss of the garrison.

Question: Why have these chinese forces not surrendered, they don't have much supply are completely surrounded with no way to fall back? Overwhelming odds. I don't understand.

I have a similar situation in Malaya where 1 Indian brigade (badly roughed up) is stranded on the road NE of Johor Baru and is being pounded by a japanese division (partial) at high odds but hasn't capitulated after 2 days of assaults at good odds (12:1).

I'd appreciate anyones feedback.

Regards
Post #: 1
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 6:21:31 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Need more details ... What are the real odds when the results run?

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 2
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 6:25:57 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		Its a bug. When units are cut off from all supply the program apparently does not know where to retreat the units to. Therefore they stay in place. Whats worse is that since most losses in the game are due to retreats they will take very few losses. You can pound these units for weeks and they will still fight on. Eventually you will get a lucky roll and a big chunk of the unit will be destroyed at once.---I try to never surround units. Its better to just retreat them again and again. Its totally a-historical but oh well.

I've sent in saves from my invassion russia game where I had taken the last supply location in east russia. From that point on the russians never retreated again.

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 3
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 6:43:54 PM   
norsemanjs

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Enderlin, ND, USA
Status: offline 		I reran the turn 2 times in order to get you some details.

The combat summary did show 49:1 odds.

But at the end of the combat details it showed chinese adjusted from 650 to 97.

Japanese final adjusted was 4818.

So it looks like the odds are correctly displayed (49.67:1)

The Malaya battle was 12:1 according to the summary.

I had to really slow it down to get the info.

So adjusted odds of 49:1 should be good enough I would think.

< Message edited by Norseman -- 1/8/2005 5:01:50 PM >

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 4
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 7:05:47 PM   
norsemanjs

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Enderlin, ND, USA
Status: offline 		Looks like the real odds were 4818 vs 97 which is 49:1

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 5
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 7:13:31 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I've had 10000:1 odds with no surrender. Posted inthe forums somewhare.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 6
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 7:17:46 PM   
norsemanjs

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Enderlin, ND, USA
Status: offline 		I always have good luck getting surrender if it is a base. Maybe I just need to herd all of these units to bases then slam the door shut.

Not exactly historically accurate. But if that's what we have to do...

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 7
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 7:31:20 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		OK, completely surrounded unit: (i modded the default 15 to simply surround the unit that starts at Nanchang)

Round 1

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25007 troops, 251 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 7457 troops, 51 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
234 casualties reported
Guns lost 14

Allied ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Round 2

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 24650 troops, 231 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 7402 troops, 48 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 9 to 1 (enough supply, most troops rebound from the first attack)


Japanese ground losses:
44 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
186 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

Round 3

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 24776 troops, 233 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 7052 troops, 34 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 8 to 1 (japanese troops getting tired from constant attacks, allies not rebounding)


Japanese ground losses:
81 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Allied ground losses:
139 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Round 4

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 24780 troops, 235 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 6813 troops, 28 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 36 to 1 (allied supplies drop into the critical range)


Japanese ground losses:
110 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Allied ground losses:
342 casualties reported
Guns lost 10

Round 5

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 24698 troops, 237 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 6219 troops, 11 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 22 to 1 (more woes due to supply shortages, japanese actually recover more then they loose)


Japanese ground losses:
60 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
295 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Round 6

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 24715 troops, 239 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 5682 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 66 to 1 (supply almost gone, japan recovers further)


Japanese ground losses:
92 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Allied ground losses:
152 casualties reported

Round 7

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 24644 troops, 234 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 5463 troops, 1 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 129 to 1 (no supply left, allies leave the field)



Allied ground losses:
7852 casualties reported
Guns lost 33

No more Allies!

Note the ending Japanese totals vs the Starting totals 24644, 234 vs 25007, 251 (less then 500 troops lost)

Also note the Allied unit lasted unit out of supply (turn 7) then mass death!

Please explain what the problem is with this.

Surrounded troops put up a fight until out of supplies, then surrender or die in place.

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 8
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 7:34:59 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Brings up the questions:

How much supply does combat use? Bombarding? Does the loser of a combat round burn more supply than winner does? Does the margin of victory have an effect? How about retreating?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 9
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 7:40:07 PM   
norsemanjs

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Enderlin, ND, USA
Status: offline 		No problem that is exactly what I've seen when attacking bases.

But don't seem to see the same thing when not in a base.

You are absolutely correct that as long as a unit has some supply it may continue to fight, (it should also be affected by other factors such as experience, fatigue, fortification level, disruption, etc.) The units I'm attacking have very low supply levels and have been bombarded for 10 days by air and artillery with no line of supply. It just doesn't feel right.

I have 4 full divisions with 1 or 2 engineer regiments nearby, I will bring them in to see what happens.

I do appreciate you taking the time to look into it,.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 10
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 7:41:12 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		I have the same problem in Laoag. I was unable to kill allied units there that had nowhere to retreat.

I would not say that is completely unhistorical. Surrounded forces with no hope of a break-out many times become desperate and refuse to surrender and figh to the last man.

Sun-Tzu: When you surround an army, leave an outlet free.
Do not press a desperate foe too hard.

Bit too much in the game sometimes, though.

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 11
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 7:42:35 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		Do same test outside of a base please. The final surrender will sometime come but it apears quite random. I've pounded surrounded units for 15 to 20 turns.

Further it is almost impossible to dislodge small units no matter the size of the attacker if surrounded. ie three divisions attacking a depleted chinese divisional detachment. Sorry you just get 1000 to 1 odds for turn after turn. Eventually you get the mass death but this is not at all realistic. Nor does it make since.

A unit that recieves odds that should cause a retreat but can't should have to pay a penalty of some sort. As is units that are surrounded gain strenth in that they can now hold a position for weeks that would have fallen easiliy if they were not surrounded.

< Message edited by moses -- 1/8/2005 11:48:21 AM >

(in reply to BlackVoid)
Post #: 12
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 7:50:18 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

But don't seem to see the same thing when not in a base.


I'll move them off the base hex and run the exact same set. If anything, they should fade quicker as the modifier for urban will not be on their side. That bonus is a rather large one against the attacker.

As long as there is supply available, a unit will not surrender unless it takes massive losses. In order to slow down land combat, loss rates were toned down to be far more gradual, this has the effect of making *combat* troops far less likely to surrender.

Blackvoid raises a very good point. completely cutting off a unit then forcing it to fight is very dangerous. You have two choices in that type of situation. Give them a way out so you hurt them as they run or use your Bombard option to eliminate their supplies prior to attacking.

As long as they have supplies, you need to be very careful about looking at the bonus situation/terrain modifiers. Defenders *always* have the advantage no matter how outnumbered they may be.

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 13
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/8/2005 8:29:45 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Ok, heres your off base results: (note the allied supply number to the left of the round)

620 round 1

Ground combat at 48,37

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 54815 troops, 650 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 7457 troops, 51 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 63 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
161 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Allied ground losses:
328 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

361 round 2

Ground combat at 48,37

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 54789 troops, 643 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 6839 troops, 26 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 167 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
104 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
190 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

139 round 3

Ground combat at 48,37

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 54792 troops, 648 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 6494 troops, 14 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 482 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
56 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
8472 casualties reported
Guns lost 43


Allies Gone

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 14
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/9/2005 7:58:56 AM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

Its a bug. When units are cut off from all supply the program apparently does not know where to retreat the units to. Therefore they stay in place. Whats worse is that since most losses in the game are due to retreats they will take very few losses. You can pound these units for weeks and they will still fight on. Eventually you will get a lucky roll and a big chunk of the unit will be destroyed at once.---I try to never surround units. Its better to just retreat them again and again. Its totally a-historical but oh well


I just wish Bataan would do this...

(in reply to moses)
Post #: 15
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/9/2005 8:39:58 AM   
norsemanjs

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Enderlin, ND, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks MR Frag.

I will also try running this a few times watching the supply to see how it drops.

Haven't had time tonight, went out to a hockey game. But will do so in the morning.

I've really love WITP so far and this is the only hiccup I've run across so far and it may very well be that I'm just not aware of all the issues (supply for example).

Thanks again.

Norseman

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 16
RE: Land Combat Question - 1/9/2005 9:59:33 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		The land combat needs attention....(hic).

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 17
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