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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Some questions before buying.

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Some questions before buying. - 1/8/2005 2:09:08 PM

Venom Rising

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1) What is the average win-rate for the AI in the game? Like, how often to Japan win the game as AI when player play the US?

2) How good is the AI at adapting to unexpected tactics?

3) What is the average time spent playing a full campaign?

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/8/2005 2:15:27 PM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venom Rising

1) What is the average win-rate for the AI in the game? Like, how often to Japan win the game as AI when player play the US?

2) How good is the AI at adapting to unexpected tactics?

3) What is the average time spent playing a full campaign?

1: In the big campaign, never, as they should

2: sometimes it does i guess..

3: vs AI, quite a few months, vs a human in PBEM... a year or more

edit: it is like with any other game, if you master the game then AI will be little challenge and you'll want to play human opponents (very rewarding)

< Message edited by String -- 1/8/2005 7:15:53 AM >

(in reply to Venom Rising)

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/8/2005 5:36:27 PM

Grotius

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Hi Venom. This is arguably the best computer wargame ever made, and I hope you consider getting it.

As for the AI, it's okay if you confront it with quasi-historical tactics. It has more trouble responding to ahistorical moves. In my current game against the AI, it's given me a good game; it's Japan, and it conquered more or less what Japan did historically. It's October 42, and I'm now island-hopping my way up the Solomons. I'm having great fun with it.

Yes, a full game against the AI will take months. A full PBEM will take a year or more. All worth it, IMHO.

(in reply to String)

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/8/2005 8:19:15 PM

madflava13

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Just to echo what these guys said:
1. The AI is good for a game of this size, but keep in mind the game is so complex that eventually the AI will not be able to keep up with you. It will give you a good game though.

2. PBEM is the way to go with this one - that's where the most fun is, I think. Check some of the AARs in the AAR thread and you'll see what I mean.

3. As for length, it all depends on how many turns and turn-length. Using one day turns, you're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of a year, I'd guess for a full campaign.

4. Trust me, it seems like an expensive game at first blush, but it is 100% worth it.

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to Grotius)

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/9/2005 5:24:28 AM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venom Rising

1) What is the average win-rate for the AI in the game? Like, how often to Japan win the game as AI when player play the US?

2) How good is the AI at adapting to unexpected tactics?

3) What is the average time spent playing a full campaign?

Like everyone else has said the AI is good if you confront it with historical techniques and strategies. I for one have never played the AI (except testing purposes) and have played Play By Email starting a few days after the game was released this summer. I have roughly 3 hrs a day into the game (in various PBEMs) and have had it 6+ months, so figure 180 days x 3 hours = 360 hours+ in enjoyment... Now divide that by the price of $70 US gives me a total per hour of 19.4 cents for great enjoyment. It is by far the most popular game I play and I only wish I had more time to partake in more PBEM games.

The AI would be a good way to learn the game and its basics, but if you want to learn the advance techniques of the game pick another human and play aginst them. If you want a great game then try to get a game against one of the experts (most are beta testers) such as Mogami and you will learn a lot...

Xargun

(in reply to Venom Rising)

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/9/2005 3:00:02 PM

Venom Rising

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So there's no AI, but a on-the-rails system for testing purposes. Okay, I can live with that.

The main question though I need answer then.. How balanced is the game for PBEM?

What is the average win percentage for Japan in campaigns?

(in reply to Xargun)

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/9/2005 5:07:28 PM

ckk

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I'm not sure anybody has yet to finish a campaign PBEM game

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/9/2005 8:23:05 PM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venom Rising

So there's no AI, but a on-the-rails system for testing purposes. Okay, I can live with that.

The main question though I need answer then.. How balanced is the game for PBEM?

What is the average win percentage for Japan in campaigns?

I have technically won 1 game as Japan already in PBEM - we restarted after I sunk all 3 of the allied starting CVs - I call that a win for me... Japan should be able to win in 2 different ways - winning by points in 43 [if you can't win by points in 43, you won't win by points at all] and by lasting longer than historically. Thats the only way to WIN as japan. But the fun is not in winning or losing (although winning is more fun) its in playing the game against another thinking person and watching as your ops succeed and even as his succeed - nothing better than watching a successful op against heavy resistance - except.. wishing it was your op succeeding

Trust me PBEM is well worth the game and there are people of all different skill levels so you can find a relative newbie and fire up a game within a few hours of buying it.

Xargun

(in reply to Venom Rising)

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/9/2005 8:29:55 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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For what we can read in th AARs it seems that Japan, if well mastered, has a percentage of winning this game in the long camp scenarios of , i guess, 20%(probably less). Pzg is quite close to win vs. Wolby....
I think the game is really really well balanced. The allies have TIME on their side, while Japan must run to get in the winning position before the tide changes in 43.

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/9/2005 8:31:57 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venom Rising

So there's no AI, but a on-the-rails system for testing purposes. Okay, I can live with that.

Agree 100% with what Xargun said. As for AI - it's not bad, in fact sometimes it's surprisingly good, but PBEM is still a way to go. Once I started PBEM (back in UV days) I never actually finished a single UV scenario vs AI, except for miniscule Coral Sea, once.

In WITP I finished scenario 2 vs. AI from both sides (#2 is great training scenario). It was nice experience, but I don't plan to go back to playing AI anytime in the future. Not because it's bad, but because PBEM is simply a way to go!

O.

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/9/2005 8:36:14 PM

2Stepper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venom Rising

So there's no AI, but a on-the-rails system for testing purposes. Okay, I can live with that.

The main question though I need answer then.. How balanced is the game for PBEM?

What is the average win percentage for Japan in campaigns?

Well, I wouldn't say there's "NO" AI in the game. Its built to respond to historical moves on the part of the player. When you consider most strategy type wargames "regardless" of the genre, that's pretty good. With the scale of this game in fact thats excellent.

In terms of your question about balance for PBEM, I think whats important to remember is that this is a historical simulation. Japan has a TON of things to fight past to win. That said, I personally feel thats the challenge of the game. You have to ask yourself questions like, "Can I conquer China while keeping the US at bay?" The ability to do that is there I believe. Your success at pulling that off is going to be weighed by the skill of the Allied player.

Finally as to Japans win percentage, as has been stated I'm not sure anyone has completed the game fully. I do know that there's a balancing system that for example if the Allied player runs a conservative game and you take all the Japanese goals... Lets say you hold the Philippines well into 1945. June for example. There's an excellent chance that regardless of the final result of the game? You'll most likely win as the Japanese player. Where on the other hand if the Philippines is gone before June of 1944 and the mainland is being bombed pretty consistently by then, you'll probably lose as Japan.

The above may not be the best example of game balance in victory conditions, but my understanding is thats how its been worked out. Your victory as Japan is weighed by your skill in prosecuting the war and holding onto what you take to the end.

Hopefully that helps.

In terms of my personal feel of the game? There's simply not a better war game out there for pure detail. I still find myself wishing in the back of my mind for a better interface to play another human instead of PBEM, but...

One does what one does and I DOES Love War in the Pacific. I suspect you would as well.

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(in reply to Venom Rising)

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/11/2005 9:34:07 AM

Venom Rising

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2Stepper

Finally as to Japans win percentage, as has been stated I'm not sure anyone has completed the game fully.

What about the betatesters or the developers? Surely they played through the game at least once before selling it?

(in reply to 2Stepper)

Post #: 12

RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/11/2005 9:40:45 AM

mlees

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They have, but there have been several updates to the game (that change some of the dynamics) since release. It's not exactly the same game now as released, so really, no. No one has finished the full campaign scenerio, lasting until 1945, by PBEM. (Or if they did, they're not bragging much...)

Part of this is due to players being more agressive with their forces than the historical commanders in real life.

(in reply to Venom Rising)

Post #: 13

RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/11/2005 10:04:53 AM

2ndACR

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IIRC, only a computer vs computer campaign completion was ever done.

No human has yet to finish the grand campaign that I know of and definatly no PBEM.

That would take 2-5 years to do. The most me and Ron have managed was 1 month of game time per week of real time. And that was on single day turns.

The game is worth it. If it was not worth it, it would have went the way of MOO3 and been declared dead on arrival or after the 1st patch.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 14

RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/11/2005 9:57:06 PM

CommC

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OK, time for fun with math.

The big campaign lasts from late 41 to mid 45, lets call it 4.5 years, at 365 days per year thats 1642 days. At one day turns, thats 1642 turns.

Assume a player averages one-half hour per turn (playing the AI), 15 minutes to make moves, 15 minutes for turn execution. Lets assume that the average player plays 21 hours per week, which is 3 hours per day, 7 days a week. I'm sure some play more than this, but lets say that is a reasonable average.

At that rate, a player could do 42 turns per week. The time required to finish the game is 1642/42 = 39 weeks = 9 months.

This would be a very agressive pace, and I think few could pull it off, i.e. 6 turns per day, 7 days a week. A more realistic average is probably half that pace, resulting in finishing in a year and a half.

If anyone does this, they should get the WitP medal of honor or something.

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/18/2005 10:43:48 PM

Venom Rising

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Was too weary about the amount of bugs reported here to chunk out over 70 euros for a game.
I'll wait until its patched and balanced and drops to half the prize.
I picked up HoI2 instead in the local EBGames.. about half the price, and a large printed manual.

I'll look closely here, and see if WiTP will be my next gaming purchase in a few months.

(in reply to CommC)

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/18/2005 11:00:17 PM

mlees

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Well, the initial release of WiTP was a whole lot less buggy than the initial release of HOI 1. (I too am looking forward to sinking my teeth into HOI 2, but considering Paradox's past record, I don't expect it to be bug free, either.)

Further, a game of this scope is ambitious, and comparing what works right (or at least good enough for government work) to what is actually broke, the ratio is pretty good, IMO. What some of the frustrating things you may read about are actually working as designed, but the designers did not anticipate what the evil players would do with the tools given to them.

(in reply to Venom Rising)

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/18/2005 11:07:32 PM

wild_Willie2

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I never thought I would say this, but the game is actually not THAT buggy. Sure, the AI is not really "inventive", and there is a small leader bug (untill 1.5 :) ) , and a small issue with a crash to desktop during the night mission phase. But overall this game is great

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/18/2005 11:18:51 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CommC

If anyone does this, they should get the WitP medal of honor or something.

that something could be 2day turns

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/18/2005 11:26:08 PM

WiTP_Dude

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1 & 2. Don't expect much of a game out of the AI unless you follow the script. If you are OK with that, you should have fun. The AI still won't win as Japan though. If you are looking for a dynamic AI that will react to every conceivable move, this may not be the game you are looking for.

3. Time spent widely various. First you have to decide if you want to play one-day, two-day, or three-day turns. Next you have to decide how much micromanagement you want to do. Do you want to look over each setting every turn or are you ok with only checking them occasionally? You should also factor in combat replays, if you watch every single event slowly, this will take a lot of time.

Figure on average 30 minutes per turn but remember there are many factors that could modify that estimate.

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RE: Some questions before buying. - 1/18/2005 11:32:11 PM

mlees

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Well, playing scenario 15 vs the AI, (1500 turns takes the game to Dec of 45?) at 6 turns per day would take 250 days. (A little over 6 months.) I played until Nov of '43 before I deleted the save, (I wanted a new start after 1.4 came out.) and it only took a little over a month for me. Also, the game could end 1 Jan '45, if you have a 2-1 point over the AI (shouldn't be hard to do. Even I had a 2.5 - 1 in '43....).

I suppose the hard part is staying motivated.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 21

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Some questions before buying.

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