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RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 4:54:14 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
So I leave this debate to the rest of you...

Thank you, Mr. Know-it-all.

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 5:35:20 AM

Veldor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
So I leave this debate to the rest of you...

Thank you, Mr. Know-it-all.

Thank you for that compliment Mr. Pasternaksi.

If you are so smart yourself then why are all of your posts in this thread limited to one or two sentences? And mainly attacks on the person posting, in this case myself, instead of any sort of more intellectual response or point-counter point?

I don't think its fair for one person to monopolize any one popular thread. I've faulted others in the past for doing so (Hi Les.) and there-by drowning out others that have equal right to state their own opinions. I abide by the unwritten rules I believe in so as not to be a hypocrite.

But thank you for once again trying to turn everything I say into a negative.

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/12/2005 11:41:31 AM

coregames

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Technology is definitely changing games, but computers are only one element of that change. I strongly believe that board gaming with technological support (such as physical pieces on an editable or changable computer board) will revolutionize gaming, and perhaps help bring back wargaming on a board. Complexity such as odds-figuring, supply, etc... can be kept track of through computer, but as long as the pieces are physical, the experience will have tactile diversity rather than the sameness of pointing and clicking with a mouse. Technologically enhanced board games can retain the social interaction over the board that so many enjoy. Computers can help save board games, not just replace them.

quote:

original post from Veldor:

I rarely bring up this point but for every great social experience playing a board wargame there is at least one other disaster that turns into arguments or at the very least, a disagreement, over rules interpretation.

This doesn't happen with a computer game...

Apparently you haven't played games like Heroes of Might and Magic multiplayer... computer gamers get angry when something doesn't go their way too, and if the outlet (even voice, chat, etc...) is there they will express that anger. Only by eliminating any non-game contact can you say this doesn't happen in computer games. If that is really where we are headed, we could eventually all just stay home at our computers, grow pale, maybe evolve larger craniums and smaller weaker legs. Physicality does matter, and I think it's desirable even at the cost of some bickering.

< Message edited by coregames -- 1/12/2005 9:52:16 AM >

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/12/2005 8:43:01 PM

Veldor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

Technology is definitely changing games, but computers are only one element of that change. I strongly believe that board gaming with technological support (such as physical pieces on an editable or changable computer board) will revolutionize gaming, and perhaps help bring back wargaming on a board. Complexity such as odds-figuring, supply, etc... can be kept track of through computer, but as long as the pieces are physical, the experience will have tactile diversity rather than the sameness of pointing and clicking with a mouse. Technologically enhanced board games can retain the social interaction over the board that so many enjoy. Computers can help save board games, not just replace them.

ok. But it sounds like your basically agreeing with me. I think its become more a disagreement over what exactly a computer is or will be and what exactly a board game is or will be. But, in a generic sense, what you describe is still Technology replacing what a board game is today.

quote:

quote:

original post from Veldor:

I rarely bring up this point but for every great social experience playing a board wargame there is at least one other disaster that turns into arguments or at the very least, a disagreement, over rules interpretation.

This doesn't happen with a computer game...

Apparently you haven't played games like Heroes of Might and Magic multiplayer... computer gamers get angry when something doesn't go their way too, and if the outlet (even voice, chat, etc...) is there they will express that anger. Only by eliminating any non-game contact can you say this doesn't happen in computer games. If that is really where we are headed, we could eventually all just stay home at our computers, grow pale, maybe evolve larger craniums and smaller weaker legs. Physicality does matter, and I think it's desirable even at the cost of some bickering.

You missed the greater point here. First, while arguments might happen online, they generally aren't going to be over a dis-agreement in rules, if ever. That is an aspect I never enjoyed and encountered even in tournament play. Heck I've even been accussed of not shuffling my UP FRONT card deck sufficiently after I randomly received multiple wire cards and then won another round (as if that was the only reason any way). I've spent 30 minutes digging through the ASL rulebook over an insignificant dispute in what some modifier should have been.

And, more importantly, if I don't like the bickering of someone I am playing against online.. Then, if all else fails, there is a tiny little button I press and only a few minutes later I have a NEW opponent. How I wish I could do that in some of the boardgames I've played.

Now, in both cases, nothing is like finding a good group where your play-styles and personalities (and hopefully skills) match, but again for the random opponents far easier and efficient to do so on the computer. Which keeps things challenging and unique in their own right.

It's one hell of a lot of effort to find varying opponents for any board game these days. Those lucky enough to have opponents in the first place end up predominately always having that same opponent.

And then, for most skilled gamers, your strategies develop more around how to be good at beating that player than they do around being good at the game itself and beating any player. Etc.

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/12/2005 9:39:09 PM

ravinhood

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The problem I find with online gaming and even PBEM is it's just too easy to "cheat". Whereas face to face, well it's very hard to cheat face to face. Other than hiding the rules or some modifiers in certain situations, face to face gaming is still the best "fair" gaming system around.

When developers can make games "totally" cheat proof, I might consider computer multiplayer gaming more acceptable, but, you can't hardly goto any gaming site, Gamespy, The Zone, back in my day Mplayer, Heatnet, etc. without encountering cheaters and hackers.

Before I even start a PBEM game I get to know my opponent very well over time. I do not accept these fly by wanna play a game players who have no social values at all. I feel if one can take the time to get to know one another, they are less likely to cheat, those that are in a hurry namely RTS players are more likely to cheat.

I played Age of Empires for awhile on The Zone and game after game most often ended up discovering a cheater or someone (the host would drop) if they were losing, causing the whole game to crash.

Found the same experience playing Magic the Gathering when Heatnet had it, if a player was losing, 50% of the time they would drop or just sit there and not make their move/turn and you either had to wait them out to get the win or they would win if you dropped because of what they did.

Stuff such as that has and will be the ruin of online gaming eventually. So, I think board gaming will definitely survive because of the cheat aspects of computer gaming.

It's one reason I like single player computer games so much and banter for better AI's. The AI gets cheats, but, it doesn't cheat you outright as human players will. Of course I would like to see an AI that didn't require cheats, but, for now that's an impossiblity for a decent AI. The higher the difficulty most often the more advantages and handicaps it's gets.

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/12/2005 10:31:30 PM

Veldor

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Ravinwood, those are all excellent points, and them some. But in my experience I have not encountered that nearly as much with computer wargames. I don't even know that I can think of an instance. It is mainly true of the style of games that really do not have boardgame counterparts.

I remember Red Alert and such games online where I was more offended by "rush tactics" where the opposing player didn't even both defending or building up their base at start. But knew you would be so they built nothing but a bunch of soldiers (by clicking as fast as they could) and rush them at you which or course you most often couldn't be prepared for.

How they could find those victories rewarding I don't know. Perhaps they couldn't win any other way.

I'd like to see an independant organization formed to validate certain facts in your online gaming profiles (similiar to what has been done for Ebay or even to an extent certain Dating/Adult site solutions).

If I could "set" my preferences for only validated people above age 18 or whatever a majority of those problems would go away. I'd have to assume well over 50% are kids with nothing better to do or especially those who wouldn't go through a validation process. Perhaps some sork of "feedback" would also be necessary for the validated people.

I'm sure a solution will be found. MMPORG's are getting better and better at dealing with griefers. In the earliest days of UO such a thing didn't even exist. Everyone was so enthralled by the new experience they all played nice. Once boredom sets in...then all hell breaks loose online.

Which is another reason I don't think many online wargamers cheat. People who get bored play wargames just move on to something else. And if your the sort that gets bored by them you probably aren't the sort to be playing them in the first place...

I mean one thing to cheat at a game of C&C that lasts 30 minutes..but cheating at WiTP? What would be the point?

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/12/2005 11:11:47 PM

ravinhood

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quote:

but cheating at WiTP? What would be the point?

Because some people live for their name being at the top of the Ladder in ladder setup games.

I remember my first Combat Mission PBEM game, I ask my opponent to set it up and send me the files since it was my first time. He did so, but, didn't tell me anything about the scenario, but, said it was real good and a lot of fun and it was short.

Well after several days of just puttering around, he gave me the "defensive" side, the conflict finally started. I might have had 15 total units and this guy comes pouring through the woods, over the ridge around every flank with at least 4 to 1 odds, tanks, halftracks, crack infantry and I got one MG, and 2 mortars and 12 measly infantry. lol Needless to say it wasn't a very fun and enjoyable experience for me. It's things like that, that doesn't make online playing or some PBEM games worth even trying. And think about newcomers to the field of play, you think it's going to make them want to play "more" games after encountering people such as this? Thank goodness it wasn't a "long" game with lots of purchase points, although I didn't even get to purchase my own units. This was a senario presetup. Obviously a one sided scenario to piss people off. I'm sure he got a big laugh out of it. But, lost a PBEM gamer for life.

The other problem is people say well just blacklist these players, that's fine and dandy, you know how "easy" it is to change your name a 100 times or more online? These people that cheat care not, they made their way up the ladder cheating before, they just change their name and do it all over again.

You're right Veldor we need some form of validation for people, but, validating people by credit card alone is not enough, or even just their name. We need something more akin to poker games online where they have a validation service that takes a bunch of information from you as your S.S. number, DL number and of course name, address phone number, and local bank routing number. Definitely keeps the kiddies out of the games. Unless they steal from their parents I suppose.

We need more of a system like Valve/Steam or Blizzard that bans these IP addresses and CD keys. We need that kind of multiplayer place to go to play games online.

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/17/2005 7:41:31 AM

Zap

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I need to clarify my previous posts. I was thinking in the framework of wargames. The discussion became more inclusive to all types. For me, wargaming on the advanced level(complicated) can only be best enjoyed on the computer despite the above mentioned and universally accepted draw backs. I hope, as time goes forward the list of classic (got to have) games will grow. I will leave that up to all those forces above mentioned like, technology, designers, game companies. Post concerning my above point have explained well, I believe, the positives.
Nothing will be perfect, but prospects of increasing game sales (equals interest) can inspire those invovled to keep the creative juices flowing to make the gaming experience closer to what many want.
I'm not a programmer or designer I'm a player with some knowledge of computers. Just, throwing in my two cents.
The future of advanced wargaming(computer). Will depend on those young 12 and 13 year olds who are inclined to be more intuitive. You known the ones, (they like war history and realism) who are intrigued by chess but want a little to much more. Similar to yourself, remember when?
This type of youth, is presently playing the xbox games, simple boardgames, ect. And will someday go in search of greater hobby challenges. I believe their numbers have not changed in proportion to the population, since I was a kid. What may capture their interest are the present conflicts the US is involved in. So hope for continued interest in the subject.

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/17/2005 11:44:44 PM

ravinhood

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Well where I come from there weren't a lot of kids interested in "wargames" when I was growing up. I can only remember (4) from my Jr. High School and we all got together and played each other from that point until we graduated. Wargaming is just not a big market. It's big enough I suppose for designers to make wargames for a world wide market now, but, compared to RTS/FPS games, wargames are minimal and most likely the lowest on the ladder.

Here's a marketing idea, goto all the grade schools, jr. highs, and high schools and plant fliers or ads on the schools bullentin boards and or kids cars windshields.

I had no idea there was such a thing as board wargaming until a friend of mine brought "Gettysburg" AH to school during our last week of school in the 6th grade and I was intrigued by the counters and map board. That one session lead to buying more wargames and also discovering the world of APBA baseball from my older brother. Now I play OOTPB 6.0 and wargames and strategy games. ;)

FPS/RTS game suck to me though. I think board wargaming (turn based) did that to me though, I'm used to slow, take your time, think all you want to games and when I see a FPS/RTS game, it's just too fast for my type of thinking and playing style of the past. You can't teach an ole dog new tricks. ;)

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RE: in reply to ravinhood - 1/19/2005 11:01:18 AM

Zap

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Yes, Ravinhood, your right that the numbers are not that many. I,m not sure what the estimated number of us are. Matrix Games might have an idea. When I wrote, (in proportion to the population things have not changed since I was a kid) the numbers were not great back then. My brothers and I played RISK but I was the only one who was interested in going into the more advanced wargames. So, I was left to play solitaire wargames for years. It was not until I entered the university that I found a few others to play with. But just like you, others will search them out or someone will introduce them to the games as it happened to you and me. And so their will be others in the future.
I do hope that when these young men play. They will learn some lessons of history. As well as enjoy the games. For example: when I played the Third Reich with friends; the german player took over all of Russia and Eurpoe. The game ended with the half the world in the hands of a dangerous lunatic(Hitler). I thought, "how good that the world did not really fall into his hands." I also considered how good it was to have more just societies fighting to free the world from nazism, fascism, communism, tyrranies, and terroism.

< Message edited by Zap -- 1/19/2005 9:14:31 AM >

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/20/2005 3:33:30 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I had no idea there was such a thing as board wargaming until a friend of mine brought "Gettysburg" AH to school during our last week of school in the 6th grade and I was intrigued by the counters and map board. That one session lead to buying more wargames and also discovering the world of APBA baseball from my older brother. Now I play OOTPB 6.0 and wargames and strategy games. ;)

APBA Baseball is what started my interest in wargames .
I went into a hobby shop as a kid one day to pick up a new edition of APBA, and spotted SL on the shelf and took a chance

I can remember studying and memorizing the rules for weeks after picking it over APBA, I was addicted to the depth of the game.
As it turned out only one of my buddies had any interest in such a board game that made you use your brain and use real strategy to win.

I picked up Memoir 44 at Xmas for my son, whom just turned 9.Who has shown interest in some of my games on my PC CMAK,HTTR. As it turned out his interest in wargames was only due to his uncle being deployed in Iraq and the board game was only a flash in the pan, and soon went back to the Xbox and Tony Hawk

I tried

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/20/2005 3:35:34 AM

Sarge

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@ Zap

PS: take a look at Pure Sim Baseball, well worth the FREE D/L

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/20/2005 9:27:20 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

and soon went back to the Xbox and Tony Hawk

If you want your child to become a wargamer, never buy them a console. ;)

My son got into rpg games because when he was young I let him sit on my lap and press the commodore 64 keys while I was playing Ulitima II, he won't play a wargame, unless it is "fantasy" based. He likes the Warlords and Heroes of Might & Magic series and Age of Wonders, and simply LOVES "Master of Magic" but, do you think he will sit down and play any "real" wargames? lol Not on your life. But, at least I broke him away from Mario Karts and nintendo games. He plays all the rpg games that are released, Diablos, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, and played four years of Everquest. But, nary a real wargame. :( I messed up.

The way I see it, it is true, you can mold a child in their early years of what type of gamer they will become. While growing up I got electric football and baseball games and chess and checkers games and monopoly and mouse trap and LEGGO blocks and tinker toys lol, so it was only natural for me to like "strategy, sim and sports games". I also got electric car racing sets and electric railroads, but, for some reason I don't like computer racing games, mainly because I suck at them, lol someone needs to make an electric car racing game for the computer, I'm pretty good at pressing the button all the way down. ;)

I find myself buying any "sim" type game, I like constructing things (leggo blocks did that to me probably).

I had to buy every wargame I got though, my mom didn't seem to approve of buying them for me for christmas for some strange reason, she was stuck on buying electric racing sets or new cars for them nearly every christmas. Musta been easy for her to find them.

I'd really enjoy someone making the Milton Bradley American Heritage games for the computer, those would be great "entry level games" for those new to computer wargaming. We got Axis & Allies, but, there's (3) of the American Heritage series that would be great also. "Battle-Cry, "Broadsides" and "Dogfight". Simple to learn and play and a heck of a lot of fun when you are 12.

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/20/2005 9:49:46 AM

rhondabrwn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I'd really enjoy someone making the Milton Bradley American Heritage games for the computer, those would be great "entry level games" for those new to computer wargaming. We got Axis & Allies, but, there's (3) of the American Heritage series that would be great also. "Battle-Cry, "Broadsides" and "Dogfight". Simple to learn and play and a heck of a lot of fun when you are 12.

And don't forget the "American Civil War" game in that series! Broadsides was great... loved the little ships and how you removed their sails as they took hits. Dogfight was so quick and easy to play!

Yes, we did to bring these back for the "younger set" to cut their teeth on.

I think I still have those games down in my storage boxes.

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/20/2005 11:52:55 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

And don't forget the "American Civil War" game in that series!

Heh, Rhonda, "Battle-Cry" IS the American Civil War game in that series. ;o)

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 1/20/2005 11:56:51 AM

Zap

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Sarge I would be interested in D/L. the Sim . Where do you find it

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/20/2005 12:19:19 PM

Zap

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Battle Cry, had the little grey and blue plastic pieces molded in the form of a soldier and cannons, right? Yes those were fun games.
If Xbox and all those games that give you a headache because of the furious speed of play are dulling the minds of the kids. Then I would be worried for the future of the wargamer. Board games will be the first casuality, then the computer wargame the next. Is my optimism just a fanasy in my own mind? Maybe we are becoming an extinct breed.

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RE: demise of board games? - 1/20/2005 5:10:04 PM

ravinhood

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Well I blame some of you guys if wargaming dies, if you have children anyway. heh

It's up to us to keep it alive, if you don't have children goto an orphanage and be a big brother and teach them wargaming. Then they'll go back to the orphanage and tell all their buddies and we could have a mass reproduction of the wargaming genre. ;)

If you are only a teenager or young adult, just remember what you teach your children someday stays with them forever, soooooooo, if you buy them those LOUSY console games, it's your fault wargaming died. ;)

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 1/21/2005 2:12:41 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Sarge I would be interested in D/L. the Sim . Where do you find it

**LINK**

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 1/21/2005 9:30:29 AM

Zap

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we could have a mass reproduction of the wargaming genre

It would take a lot of people interested in the strateghy wargame to equal the sales of let's say a, "Call of Duty" 8 million copies. I don't know if that is possible but I would be happy with a million more.

P.S how do you get the white boxes to encapsulate others peoples quotes

< Message edited by Zap -- 1/21/2005 7:32:16 AM >

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 1/21/2005 7:56:44 PM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

P.S how do you get the white boxes to encapsulate others peoples quotes

Click the quote button in the upper right corner of the forum members post.

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 1/22/2005 6:28:06 AM

ravinhood

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Hrmmm I don't know about the rest of em, but, I highlight the sentence I want to quote with blue (holding down the left mouse button while dragging it across the sentence(s), then click on the reply button in the persons post and it brings that sentence into my text message box in quotes.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 1/21/2005 11:28:25 PM >

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Post #: 52

RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 1/22/2005 6:50:42 AM

Zap

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quote:

I highlight the sentence I want to quote with blue (holding down the left mouse button while dragging it across the sentence(s), then click on the reply button in the persons post and it brings that sentence into my text message box in quotes.

Ravinhood I tried yours, it works simple enough, I appreciate the help.

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Post #: 53

RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 1/22/2005 6:53:59 AM

Zap

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

P.S how do you get the white boxes to encapsulate others peoples quotes

Click the quote button in the upper right corner of the forum members post.

Sarge,I tried your way Ooops!I have to get more directions Sarge, seems I did something wrong using your method!

I wanted to put "Click the quote button in the upper right corner of the forum members post." in quotes

< Message edited by Zap -- 1/27/2005 8:17:48 AM >

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Post #: 54

RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 5/31/2005 4:24:30 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

we could have a mass reproduction of the wargaming genre

It would take a lot of people interested in the strateghy wargame to equal the sales of let's say a, "Call of Duty" 8 million copies. I don't know if that is possible but I would be happy with a million more.

Once computers are more commonplace, and the novelty of them has worn off somewhat, I do believe boardgaming will make a resurgence. As I stated earlier in this thread, the genre has already had tremendous growth over the last few years, and I prefer to identify this as a backlash to some extent; as computers infiltrate our professional lives, more and more people would rather escape from them in our recreational lives.

Veldor and I had some pretty heated debate on this topic in this thread, but when we both realized that our terminology was confusing us, we essentially agreed. Computers are not going away, and boardgaming must embrace the technology to make the next step. This could be in the form of games that use physical pieces on a variable computer monitor board with sensors. By this, many of the important aspects of boardgaming would be revitalized, such as direct face-to-face social interaction over a table, and the tactile variety of not having to use the same mouse over-and-over again for every move in every game.

What reminded me of this thread was watching some kids playing HeroClix and MageKnight, games with miniatures that incorporate counter devices on their bases. Wouldn't it be cool to have clickable buttons on miniatures, so that they were essentially dedicated cordless mice? Roleplaying games and traditional miniatures gaming would be revolutionized by the elimination of paper/pencil requirements... then the entire tabletop could be devoted to the board (and softdrinks of course).

< Message edited by coregames -- 5/31/2005 6:04:53 PM >

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 5/31/2005 4:53:23 PM

parusski

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WOW. I just finished reading the entire thread and I am astounded. The animosity is uncalled for folks. We are all gamers so those of you attacking each other should really take a deep breath and relax.

I love both board games and computer games: each has its negatives and positives. Deal with them.
Jeez.

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"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 56

RE: demise of board games? - 5/31/2005 5:12:25 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
So I leave this debate to the rest of you...

Thank you, Mr. Know-it-all.

Hi, Hey quit throwing my title around. I am Mr. Know-it-all. Have been since I was around 10 years old. Except for on-line where I've been Mogami my nickname among friends is Bullwinkle. If you went to the VFW and asked "Have you seen Russ Neer or Mogami" no one would know who you meant. If you asked "Have you seen Bullwinkle" everyone would know who you meant. (and they would tell you if I was not there I could only be at one of two other places. At home on my computer or at Bears drinking his beer.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 57

RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 5/31/2005 6:02:14 PM

coregames

Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

WOW. I just finished reading the entire thread and I am astounded. The animosity is uncalled for folks. We are all gamers so those of you attacking each other should really take a deep breath and relax.

I love both board games and computer games: each has its negatives and positives. Deal with them.
Jeez.

I thought my post was polite... I'm surprised you would respond like that to what I said, especially since everything else in this thread is months old.

(in reply to parusski)

Post #: 58

RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 5/31/2005 8:16:56 PM

parusski

Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline

sorry coregames. I did not mean to reply to your post. Your post was polite. Sometimes I am months behind in posting, it takes me a long time to process what I read.

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(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 59

RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/1/2005 2:07:53 AM

Fred98

Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nobody in Particular
How do you �quote� other posters?

Click on the button labelled �quote�

In the box, highlight everything.

Open a Word document and choose �Edit � Paste Special � Unformatted Text�

Write your message. Check the grammar and spelling

Then copy and paste back into the forum.

Use "preview post".

If its OK, then post

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(in reply to parusski)

Post #: 60