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Sight and Sound - 6/19/2000 10:49:00 PM

Wild Bill

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From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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Well, the other day I did my listening. Today I did some looking. I decided to stop for a moment and look...look at the graphics in SPWAW. I mean, really take a look. For a moment forget the pleas for more zoom levels or anything else. Just look. Have you, in the mad rush of things, without the haze of smoke, or the heat of battle, stopped just to look? Nick Papp, Mike Amos, White Rook, and I don't know really who else have formed a core group of artists that are without a doubt the best. Look at the detail on these tanks. Check out the detailed squads, with even prone LM gunners, bayonets, varying sizes and shapes of artillery. Wander over the hills and valleys of the maps, the buildings, the terrain. Just look and enjoy. Before my cataract surgery in 1997 in both my eyes, I loved miniatures, 1/285 scale. Over a period of 12 years, I had over 2,000 vehicles from WWI through Desert Storm, all hand painted with care by me. But then with the surgery, I could not really see them anymore. So that ended that part of my gaming adventures. Now I have SPWAW. My miniatures are back. No, they are not 3 dimensional, but they are beautiful. I feel I can reach through the screen and pick them up. And if you doubt the changes, go back to SP1 or SP3 and compare. Remind yourself of what you had and what you have now. I want to congratulate our artists. Nick, Warhorse (Mike A) and Rook, plus anyone else on this team, our thanks. And then there is our team of audio artists, Jon Johnson and Scott Grasse. Ever heard such sounds in SP or any other tac level game like these? Now you have sounds that make you stop and look (and sometimes flinch

. And how many hours of work does all this represent? A lot of them, believe me. The scenarios and campaigns are only as good as the tools with which we have to work. Our sound and sight teams have given so very much in this game that we have never heard before. I just wanted you to know about these guys and how hard they have worked. If you like 'em, why not let these guys know? A little praise is well deserved in these cases. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

Post #: 1

- 6/20/2000 9:25:00 AM

Stug

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From: Ottawa,ON,Canada
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The Graphics are great! I love the sounds too. I love the sound of the American M1 Rifle you can hear the clip fly out of the gun when the ammo's spend. Ping! Keep up the good work. And the mines scare me.

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- 6/20/2000 9:51:00 AM

troopie

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Genuine! Has anyone noticed that the first time a bolt action rifle is fired in a turn, you don't hear the sound of the bolt loading a round into the chamber on all subsequent shots you do. That's paying attention! I turned up the sound of the Mauser's bolt and compared it to the sound of the bolt on the Gewehr 98 I have, the correlation is exact. You can design pleasant vistas, deep cool woods, pretty little villages with smiling vineyards, flowering orchards and tile roofs. It seems a shame to fight in them. Well done to all! troopie

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Pamwe Chete

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- 6/20/2000 10:20:00 AM

Fabio Prado

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To all of you guys that succeeded in making the SPWaW images and sound a thrilling experience my deepest respect for your work. Really good job, boys! Fabio Prado.

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Post #: 4

- 6/20/2000 2:21:00 PM

crazyivan

Posts: 189
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: New Zealand
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ever since this truly awesome game has come out i have only missed 3 nites of not at least playing a hour or so of it and the lack of man hours fighting has been more than made up of all day sessions on the pc on the weekends. the sounds are top class and saving privite ryen takes on a new meaning every time i wacth it the sounds take me back to my own battle and the tv goes west and the game goes on.top game top marks to you all.my biggest praise to you all is to keep playing it.........sigh another sleepless night now to upgrade those t 34 to t34/85s look out fascist scum mother russia is back!!!!!!!!!!

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- 6/20/2000 3:41:00 PM

Wild Bill

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Watch out, Crazy Ivan is on a roll!

WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Wild Bill Wilder
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Post #: 6

- 6/20/2000 3:53:00 PM

Colonel Klink

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From: Northern California
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Three cheers for the spw@w artists: hip hip hoorah! hip hip hoorah! hip hip hoorah! bill: as a side note, i also have an ocular medical condition (ocular myasthenia gravis) which is controlled with medication. take care!

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- 6/20/2000 9:11:00 PM

Charles22

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From: Dallas, Texas, USA
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I like the view, but I love the sound so much more. I love the little background noise of the "gunfire in the distance", so that it gives you the sense that you're figthing alongside another formation of your army. This effect really comes into play when you go off somewhere perhaps to eat and watch a smidgen of tv, and then realize, blast if I didn't turn off those speakers when I left, but then you realize, hey that's pretty neat, the front is still ongoing when I'm off on leave. If anything drives the long life for this game, I feel it's the sound. I'm fond of playing Gerry, but just yesterday I got fed up with playing AOE2, which I sort of put SPWAW on hold till the new version comes out so I can campaign properly, and loaded the Correggidor (sp) scenario. I played as US and just hearing the different sound of the different weapons made it all the more fascinating. BTW, I'm awfully fond of the 88 flak "whoosh", and I toyed slightly with one scenario that had a Tiger, which gun also had a "whoosh". Do all 80-90mm flak/AT guns have this sound, or is it just a Gerry thing?

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- 6/20/2000 10:22:00 PM

slammer

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The graphics and sound were the first thing I noticed. I let an american landing vs japanese held island scenario just play on and sat back and watched. The attention to detail is excellent. Great Job!!

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Post #: 9

- 6/20/2000 10:55:00 PM

Jackk

Posts: 174
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From: Charlotte, NC
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Indeed! High praise to the artists. For the most part, I read about the games before they come out, so I know what to expect in terms of gameplay. Then, when I get it, the first thing I do is fire up a big tank battle so I can look at all the new icons n stuff. Love it. I was floored by the original SP2WW2 and that series only got better. Then this comes out and had the bonus of better sounds. I love the big boom of the heavy guns .... German 88's, Brit 17 pdrs, US 105's.....BOOM....BOOM....BOOM....love it. And the background noise is too cool. I like it in TOAW too and thought it a great addition to the SP series. Good job guys.... Hail! Hail! Hail! ------------------ Jackk "Smile today cuz tomorrow may really suck"

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- 6/20/2000 11:56:00 PM

Wild Bill

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Thanks, guys. The art team does not write much...too busy doing the art thing

But they notified me that they have read these accolades and are very grateful. I smiled

, then locked them back up in their little art room

Back to work! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 11

- 6/21/2000 1:39:00 AM

WW2'er

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I too want to add my praise for the artists and sound teams. The cities and beaches are great! I love the wave lines and all the new terrain. And the sounds are awesome! I love the opening to Betio with the planes diving in and the explosions and the antiaircraft fire going off! I love to crank the sound up and then I just feel like I "HAVE" to find a foxhole and fast! Kudos to one and all. WW2'er

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- 6/21/2000 1:59:00 AM

Warhorse

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Hello, well, one art guy has a few seconds!! Thanks all for the nice words, and best of all thanks for enjoying the game, we done it all for you!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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- 6/21/2000 4:45:00 AM

Antonius

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The sounds are so nice that I've entirely totally turned off those combat message so that the battles are totally fluid and I never need to set fast arty on to speed up the game PS: future PBEM opponents, please note that I'll put back some level of messages for PBEM games

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- 6/21/2000 8:49:00 AM

Dice4Eyes

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Magnificent work guys. My favorite graphic is the fallen log on the ground in one of the woods tiles(it adds lots of flavor). Favorite sound have got to go to the background battle sounds. You feel like your on the battlefield as a small part of bigger battle. And an offtopic(for this thread) praise, sorry Bill but the nominee for best scenario ever is awarded(i think its)"Grenadier"(can't remember) for the outstanding "The last stand of the 78'th Sturm". Great map and innovativ play. And since we can't pay god money for this great game, maybe we should send some food and drinks to the sound and graphics crew that Wild Bill has locked in the basement. Might not taste so great after shipment from Sweden but its the thought that counts.

------------------ Ever played chess with death Mvh Daniel E.

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Post #: 15

- 6/21/2000 10:07:00 AM

Six-pk

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DOODS KEEP IT UP Love the sounds and sights of WAW!

Six

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Post #: 16

- 6/23/2000 7:37:00 AM

Greg McCarty

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You know, the more I study this game, the more it appears to me that a large developer probably could not or would not have developed a game of this detail or calibre. The very companies with the capital to devote to this sort of project simply are too bottom line oriented to go this distance. Not that they would not deserve a profit, but that their laser focus on economic justification would, in all probability, make it impossible for them to go this distance. I think your sort of company was what Alvin Toffler had in mind when he discussed the "Electronic Cottage" in "The Third Wave." (1980)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: Thanks, guys. The art team does not write much...too busy doing the art thing But they notified me that they have read these accolades and are very grateful. I smiled , then locked them back up in their little art room Back to work! Wild Bill

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than to live on your knees.

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- 6/23/2000 7:44:00 AM

Wild Bill

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We don't want to go in that direction, Greg. Our focus is quality. If we can make a little change in doing that, it will be a nice recompense. So are letters like yours and others here who support us. We have a bond with gamers. We are of the same cut. We don't ever want to lose that!..Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Wild Bill Wilder
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Post #: 18

- 6/23/2000 8:45:00 AM

nikb

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They are bloody fantastic - I think we tend to take them for granted most of the time. Bill is right - we have to stand back now and again to realise how good they are. The simple thing that got me when I first started playing was the sound of the bolt action - one of many small actions within the game that all add up to one great experience. Roll on the patch. Nik

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Nik

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- 6/23/2000 11:13:00 AM

Tankhead

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I've never seen such a great package all in one. First time I fired up SPWAW

I could not believe the sounds and graphics. Just totally awesome thumbs up for all the people involved in this fantastic game. They are thruly talented, some of the best programmers in the biz.. The details are well

. My SPIII is been sitting on the shelf ever since I downloaded SPWAW. Thanks to all the crew that made SPWAW possible. Rick

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- 6/23/2000 11:52:00 AM

Kerg

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Great job to all! I am concerned with SP2WWII. I used to love that game but now with SPWAW I have no reason to play it. I feel sorry for those that will be continuing to work on SP2WW2 because...well... they just can't compete. Kerg ------------------ [This message has been edited by Kerg (edited 06-23-2000).]

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- 6/23/2000 12:04:00 PM

Pack Rat

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I guess I was taking the graphics for granted. The new sounds I've enjoyed from the start. One night for some reason I either zoomed in or got my eyes closer to the screen. The AFV had on the fender skirts same as in it's picture (forgot what they're called), it blew me away. Outstanding job, all! ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat

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- 6/23/2000 5:43:00 PM

Guderian

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quote:

Originally posted by Kerg: Great job to all! I am concerned with SP2WWII. I used to love that game but now with SPWAW I have no reason to play it. I feel sorry for those that will be continuing to work on SP2WW2 because...well... they just can't compete. Kerg

Disagree. Sound and sight alone don't make the game. On my computer, i have games like Half-Life, Q3. So really, that don't impress me much. Remember Panzer General ? Great visuals, good sound, cool videos, and the game was just Axis & Allies with a bit more detail. What impresses me in SP games is attention to detail, bug fixing, OOB's.... Sure, SPWaW is a step forward. Spww2 goes in another direction. Where Spwaw makes detailed armor system, Spww2 portrays infantry (IMHO) better. SpWaW has new terrain, sure, but Spww2 generates more logic battle locations in campaign. SpWaW OOB's are very strongly influenced by ASL (Dare Death, tank types etc.) Spww2 uses their own idea of OOB etc etc... It's hard to compare the games now. I'll wait untill July 10 and see what will Don & Andy come up with.

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- 6/23/2000 6:19:00 PM

O de B

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I guess that any good feature in SPWW2 that would lack in WaW will be included in a future patch, isn't it ? Especially infantry modelling and campaign location (and maybe even it's already in the 2.0 patch ?) Logically SPWW2 was begun before WaW so they can have a small advance, and they did'nt remake the armor penetration system that makes WaW so great, and full windows integration... only to quote this, Matrix did sooo many features

. SPWW2 has however an edge over WaW : since the game is still DOS, i could play it on my old 486

Plans to make a DOS version of WaW Matrix

? I just hope that maybe when the SPCamo guys will have achieved what they think to be a definitive version of SPWW2 they will also give support to WaW. The more the merrier

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- 6/23/2000 10:28:00 PM

Wild Bill

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Interesting discussion on SPWAW and SPWW2. I'm going to state my point of view on the matter. Understand, it is my personal point of view. It is not an official statement from TGN or Matrix. It won't resolve anything but may help understand the "why" of two games. I have worked on both games since their beginning. In fact it was David Heath and I who gave initial support to the SP-Camo Group to get them started. Many people are not aware of that since the SP-Camo Workshop has removed nearly all the names of the people who worked on it in its first version. After the first version was published, SP-Camo Workshop decided that they preferred to work on their own, form their own team and improve the game. They did not really want to work with the Raiders or the TGN staff anymore. Meanwhile, we saw the handwriting on the wall with DOS. We knew that sooner or later Windows was the way to go. So SP-Camo went in one direction and we went in another direction. Our first goal was Windows compatibility. As the game evolved we began to see that there were many features needed that had never been included. Thus we ended up with SPWAW. It probably should interest you to know that SP-Camo and SPWW2 had its origins and creation right here with TGN and the Raiders. Look at the list of existing scenarios for the game. Notice that 90% of them were done by the Raiders. That should tell you something. Of course, with their version 3.0 all the existing SPWW2 scenarios will be trashed. They have formed a new scenario team, completely apart from the Raiders. I wish them well. I mean that. Their lead scenario designer left the Raiders to work with them. I hope it all works well for them One of the strongest features of SPWAW is its stablity and compatability with Windows. SPWW2 is a DOS game with the inherent limitations and crashes. SPWAW is Windows based game and will be around when DOS becomes history (and it will). Play both if you wish. Or you can choose one or the other. They are both out here for your enjoyment. But either way, I consider it a special privilege to have been involved in the creation of both games. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games [This message has been edited by Wild Bill (edited 06-23-2000).]

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 25

- 6/24/2000 1:11:00 AM

Guderian

Posts: 81
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From: Poznan, Poland
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quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: Interesting discussion on SPWAW and SPWW2. I'm going to state my point of view on the matter. Understand, it is my personal point of view. It is not an official statement from TGN or Matrix. It won't resolve anything but may help understand the "why" of two games. I have worked on both games since their beginning. In fact it was David Heath and I who gave initial support to the SP-Camo Group to get them started. Many people are not aware of that since the SP-Camo Workshop has removed nearly all the names of the people who worked on it in its first version. After the first version was published, SP-Camo Workshop decided that they preferred to work on their own, form their own team and improve the game. They did not really want to work with the Raiders or the TGN staff anymore. Meanwhile, we saw the handwriting on the wall with DOS. We knew that sooner or later Windows was the way to go. So SP-Camo went in one direction and we went in another direction. Our first goal was Windows compatibility. As the game evolved we began to see that there were many features needed that had never been included. Thus we ended up with SPWAW. It probably should interest you to know that SP-Camo and SPWW2 had its origins and creation right here with TGN and the Raiders. Look at the list of existing scenarios for the game. Notice that 90% of them were done by the Raiders. That should tell you something. Of course, with their version 3.0 all the existing SPWW2 scenarios will be trashed. They have formed a new scenario team, completely apart from the Raiders. I wish them well. I mean that. Their lead scenario designer left the Raiders to work with them. I hope it all works well for them One of the strongest features of SPWAW is its stablity and compatability with Windows. SPWW2 is a DOS game with the inherent limitations and crashes. SPWAW is Windows based game and will be around when DOS becomes history (and it will). Play both if you wish. Or you can choose one or the other. They are both out here for your enjoyment. But either way, I consider it a special privilege to have been involved in the creation of both games. Wild Bill

OK. WB, your slipping OT again. No-one is denying work of TGN and the Raiders. If you take a closer look at "Game Guide", included with Spww2 you will find your name, all of the Raiders and many more guys. Put me right if someone is missing. Unless you are feeling cheated by ommiting you all in that short intro-thing everyone skips. My original post was about that visuals and sound don't make the game. Sure, they're nice, but you can't judge a car by it's shape and color. As for Winblows compability, i have seldom any problems with that in SPww2. I'm aware that others have trouble, but i prefer 1 crash per hour to sluggish unit movement and 300 MB's of wavs (why not .mel or .mp3 i ask ?) who jerk up HT movement. You posted your personal opinion, so i post mine. Your post sounded more like "why SP-camo is boo and we are okay". At least it's my opinion. I've picked a few things from Dale during those two years.... PS: if you (i refer to list posters) wish to flame me for "jumping on good old WB", i don't care. It will just prove me a few things...

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Post #: 26

- 6/24/2000 1:40:00 AM

Wild Bill

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Its evident you came loaded for bear, Guderian, if you came here to "prove"(your words) something. Someone wanted an opinion. I gave it. You gave yours. But innuendoes of other motives are wrong. If I have something to say, I say it. I think I did say in my post that "I wish them well." I meant that, or do you have doubts about my veracity? I've got nothing to prove. Maybe you have. So is your post to be considered "jumping on old WB?" Was that your intention or were you trying to present another point of view? If it is the former, be my guest. I've been jumped on before. If it is to present your preference or advertise for SPWW2, go right ahead. Both games are out there. I've contributed a lot to both of them. Let the gamer decide. Most of the contributors and readers here are adults and can make their own choices. I think they will, but not based primarily on anything you or I say. Now I don't intend to see-saw with you on this Guderian. I've said what I have to say and I'll just stand pat with my hand. ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games [This message has been edited by Wild Bill (edited 06-23-2000).]

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Wild Bill Wilder
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Post #: 27

- 6/24/2000 2:07:00 AM

Moonwolf

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My two pence probably aren't needed, but since this is a public forum . . . I just posted two scenarios to the Scenario Depot: one SP:WW2 & one SPWAW. Each game has its strong points. Some scenarios are better on one game than the other. That's OK. They are both free so everybody can afford to have both of them. They are close enough to each other so that nobody has to relearn how to play. It is to our benefit we have both of them. Competition drives the market -- not monopolism. It is good for the consumer (ie: the gamer) to have both games being worked on. Choice is good. No choice is . . . not good. By the way, Wild Bill helped me with the SP:WW2 scenario by playtesting it and suggesting ways to make it better. He also was the one who suggested I make it for SP:WW2 in the first place because I could model it better there. As it happens, I also had Guderian playtest the same scenario . . . he didn't help as much as WB, but that is not jumping on Guderian or pumping up WB -- that's just the way it was. When SPWAW v2 comes out I will pounce on it. When SP:WW2 v3 comes out I will pounce on that. I have ideas for scenarios for both of them that each one can handle better. I think that's great. Let's enjoy it. It won't always be like this.

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Post #: 28

- 6/24/2000 2:24:00 AM

Guderian

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From: Poznan, Poland
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quote:

Originally posted by Moonwolf: My two pence probably aren't needed, but since this is a public forum . . . I just posted two scenarios to the Scenario Depot: one SP:WW2 & one SPWAW. Each game has its strong points. Some scenarios are better on one game than the other. That's OK. They are both free so everybody can afford to have both of them. They are close enough to each other so that nobody has to relearn how to play. It is to our benefit we have both of them. Competition drives the market -- not monopolism. It is good for the consumer (ie: the gamer) to have both games being worked on. Choice is good. No choice is . . . not good. By the way, Wild Bill helped me with the SP:WW2 scenario by playtesting it and suggesting ways to make it better. He also was the one who suggested I make it for SP:WW2 in the first place because I could model it better there. As it happens, I also had Guderian playtest the same scenario . . . he didn't help as much as WB, but that is not jumping on Guderian or pumping up WB -- that's just the way it was. When SPWAW v2 comes out I will pounce on it. When SP:WW2 v3 comes out I will pounce on that. I have ideas for scenarios for both of them that each one can handle better. I think that's great. Let's enjoy it. It won't always be like this.

Bullseye. The best part of 2 Sp games is competition - both groups try their best. And that's gud for us, the wargamers. WB - no see-sawing from over here, either. We have to agree to disagree on some topics. I won't get us anywhere, only eat up bandwidth...

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Post #: 29

- 6/24/2000 2:31:00 AM

Tombstone

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Wild Bill, I thought your comments and opinions on spww2 and spwaw were put forth in such a manner as to explain how you feel and at the same time totally devoid of any inflammatory remarks. I guess something of a rift must exist between the two games for posts like these to come up. That's too bad, I like both games myself. I like some of the features that SP3 brings to the table so I prefer it currently. What I really enjoy about this forum is the (almost) total lack of negativity and the level of integrity with which people treat each other. Guderian, it's not fair to tell another person what they really meant was, that's their business and if you think that the message would so easily be percieved as flaming ANYONE why not tone it down some?? If there's a conflict between people it should stay private. Tomo

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