Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
In the end, if you enjoy it and are having fun doing it then by all means go for it. I'm more interested in your knowing the actual history then in how you play a game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Here's an interesting fact form my game with WITP_Dude to add to the discusion:

I now have 14 divisions in Chungking as Japan. These are for the most part units which took Changsa in Dec. Attacked down the rail line fighting repeated actions against the chinese forces. They finally made it to wuchow where the fought a protracted battle for that city. Then they redeploed back toward the river crossing near changsa, went off road for a while to flank the enemy positions and finally defeated the Chinese force there. They march north from here to Chungking and have been fighting there for 4 or 5 days. It is late april 1942.

I just checked their status. All are within a squad or two of MTOE strength. My worst division has 13 disrupted squads!!!

Really I'm not trying to make people mad but this is a problem in my opinion. I think it should be possible to defeat China and I think that once you do so you should be able to benifit from such a victory. But after such a protracted campaign my troops should be at the point of utter exhaustion. Really at some point prior to my troops reaching Chungking, it should have been neccessary for me to pause for at least a week or two in order to regain disruption, morale, replace squads, or something. But I have moved pretty much non-stop with no ill-effects.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

quote:

Reply to frag: Don't remenber being asked?? We started on 1.3 then switched to 1.4 about a month or so in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Because this is a game about "The War in the Pacific" and not "A Possible Version of a Great Land War in Asia"
Game works great as a game about the Pacific War it does not do well as a game about a land war in Asia.
China is required for several reasons.

1. The impact on Japans ability to fight the Pacific War with 1 hand tied behind it's back.
2. The coast of China is the supply route for material cominbg and going to the Home Islands and so the location of important Japanese bases.
3. The motive for the Japanese going to war against the Western Alliance.

It is not intended to provide a solution to Japans problems. Had that solution been possible the Japanese would have pursued it and not involved the USA.
Pry is going to have to redo the Chinese OB and new rules for Chinese supply invented. (They defend at 100 percent regardless of supply and they replace everything as required)
Perhaps this will restore the historic situation. Stalemate in China. Japan unable to win military victory and so unable to force a diplomatic solution she decides to expand the war in order to

1. Secure resource required to maintain the Empire
2. Isolate China to where the Chinese will finally come to terms and agree to a settlement that leaves Japan in control of the markets she desires.

The problems encountered in WITP with results in China and against Soviets and India are the product of a mindset among certain types of players who desire to transform the game into a Japanese Empire building game. Most of the strategy employed here involves using the map edges. WITP was not designed to resolved battles between forces of 100k+ troops per side but where 1 division fought an equal or smaller force with the out come dependant on other factors such as supply/air/naval support.

This does not mean no large battles should be fought in China or elsewhere only that such battles should be the exceptions and not the norm.
I agree that to a point a player is forced into massing more then historic force in order to get a positive result in a timely manner but these cases should occur in the Pacific/SRA where there exists flanks and rears and supply lines and not on the edges of the map where the map edge becomes a tactical advantage.

Everyone is free to play as they wish but all should understand the intent of the designers and where this intent is not followed no protest concerning results should be made.
If you want to play "Japan Conquers the World" You can do it. But don't expect the results to appear reasonable.

All ratings are objective. Allied ratings for weapons and aircraft and skill in 1941 are set to allow the historic Japanese victories in the SRA. China is made the way is is to reflect both their capabilities and the inclination of her leaders. CHina was not about to fight all out against Japan if by waiting the Western Alliance would defeat the Japanese. Both parties in China were saving their strength for the coming Civil War. China was much stronger then her results in the war but suppose Japan had forced "unifaction" onto the Chinese? They would have hammered the Japanese. In WITP such unifying is considered not possible because the game is made to reflect "The War In the Pacific" and not "The Great Land War in Asia"

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

The WiTP website says China is covered by the game... can I get refund if this is now official Matrix policy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, If you want the war in China to be a major event then you need to make it accurate
Take the 3rd Battle of Changsha for example.
Dec 24 1941 to Jan 15 1942 The first major Japanese offensive in China after Pearl harbor.
4 Japanese divisions 120,000 men total advance to Changsha.
They were met by and encircled by 300,000 Chinese.

Unless WITP expands to recreate in it's entireity the situation and special circumstance of China then China should be left as is was. Unimportant as far as resolving the Pacific War.
The Chinese OB would be pages long or we would have to make Chinese Armies with Assault values of 1200-1500 points each. Without some rule to limit them on the offensive they would roll over the Japanese.

However Chinese leaders did not desire to crush the Japanese if it meant losing forces they were saving for later. They made offensive operations in response to Japanese attempts but did not try to force Japan out.

Am I being clear here? The game convers China in regard to it's actual impact in the war. If Japanese players venture out looking for solutions then the Chinese need to have their actual and historic response capabilty added as well.

In the end China will become a back water that plays no major part in deciding the outcome of the war. ()as designed)

To do justise to the war or possible war in China we would need a map the size of the map currently covered by the game and a map scale of 5 miles per hex.
The ground combat in WITP is designed for island and jungle warfare not on a front the size of China and not on the scale players employ.

The emperour of Japan had prior to start of war fired the commander of the Manchurian Army and forbid it to take further action against the Soviets. ()Japanhad just lost over 50,000 men versus the Soviets) That Army was not a source for troops in China untill Allied bombers began using bases in China in 1944. Bases that curently the Japanese can secure in 1942 with little effort. (far less effort and more success then history justifies) But since in the end in has little impact on war no one cares if Japan does cheap in 42 what cost more in 44. But to try to enlarge it into Japan conquers China is something else.


(Hint WITP is a game about air power)

Personally I would love a game that only covered China and left the rest of the Pacific out.
It would be a monster.
By Dec 7 1941 Japan had inflicted over 2 million casulties on the Chinese. At a cost of 700,000 men. (400,00) dead. It isbecause of the cost already suffered that they expanded the war in the first place. Both the Chinese and Japanese knew that Japan could not get a settlement in China unless China was cut off from the outside. It appears only the Chinese realized Japan would lose the expanded war.




In 1944 the Japanese empty the country to mass troops for a 4th try at Changsha. They mass 360,000 troops. After several months they take both Changsha and Henyang but in the process the Chinese retake much of the north. When Japan attempts to retake these areas they are encircled and lose most of the 360,000 troops.

The point here is that after 1940 every Japanese offensive results in a defeat for the Japanese.

If we change WITP to reflect reality then Allied players will drive the Japanese out in 1942. Transfer the Chinese to Burma and retake Malaya. Pay PP for Chinese units and load them on transports and land in PI in 1943.
Unless both sides fight the Pacific War the Land War in Asia will dominate the game.

(and to be fair, if the Chinese forget there is going to be a post Pacific War Civil War then the Chinese in PI is more plausable then the Japanese in India scenarios)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, All this ignores history. Are there enough CHinese units on map in place and in condition to dupllicate the 3rd battle of Changsha where 300,000 Chinese defeat 120,000 Japanese between Dec 24th and Jan 15th without lessening the defense of any other Chinese base?

Before WITP is finished with China there will be. SOme scenario designer is going to redo China and when it is adopted for play the whole issue will go away. China will not provide easy VP in 1942.
Then I will be telling Allied players that the CHinese did not attack the Japanese for political reasons and they should not do it or the Japanese player will lose the game in 1943.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Both the Soviet and Chinese OB in the game are incomplete. In North China in 1941 the Communists had over 300,000 troops. (They had 400,000 the year before but during the attack of 100 Regts lost many. It took the Japanese most of 1940 to restore the situation in the north. This was the last time the Communists made a major effort against the Japanese. They conserved their strength for the Civil War but did continue to ambush and harrass the Japanese in a further 11,000 skirmish and minor battle. The Japanese never tried to take the North after the battle of 100 Regts) They are not in WITP. There is no Soviet Fleet
I don't think Japanese players want the 90+ submarines that were there active in 1941.
Fixing the OB will fix the problems.

Except of course we will then have the Chinese problem. They will win the war because they will agree not to fight their Civil War and be the manpower for the Allies.
Just march 500,000 of them to India and dump supply on them for a year.

If Japanese players wish to go all out in China that is fair. But China should be China and not "fixed" to make it act like China.
We will give it it's real (but unused) power to place against Japans real (but unused) power and let it rip.


There were 1.2 million armed Chinese Communists by 1945

China lost around 3 million troops in combat/ Japan over 1 million
To lose 3 million in combat and have 3 million in the field at the end means the Army in China was around 3 times the size used in WITP. The Japanese in WITP are about accurate.