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RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 7:48:29 AM

Black Cat

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Just started playing the 1st. Tutorial as the WP which is to advance to a VP hex.

The one thing that seems a bit odd is that my screening, non moving units are taking losses from US units that cannot be seen by my units that are being hit. There is a blinking spot, which I guess represents the US unit ??, some noise, and I lose 3-5 units without ever returing fire or seeing the attacker ??

Since the US units are moving I would think that not only should they be seen first, but in fact hit first, and hardest, but`s it`s not playing out that way. The US units just charge in, and do massive damage to the screening units....any comments on this or am I mis-understanding the command settings. which I left at default ?

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 31

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 11:19:23 AM

Murky71

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It's been a while since I played the tutorial, so I'm not completely sure what is supposed to happen. To get a clearer picture, you might want to try to turn on the setting which shows all units (both your own and the enemy). I think it's the first item in the realism settings (from the fpg main menu).

Once you can see what the us forces are doing, you can also see whether or not those forces have been spotted by your own. There should be a dot in the lower right hand corner of the unit counter when spotted. Let us know if it makes more sense this way.

< Message edited by Murky71 -- 1/26/2005 10:21:08 AM >

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Post #: 32

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 2:21:11 PM

GreenDestiny

Posts: 177
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From: Alamogordo NM
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I get the impressions in this game..... that if you move..... you losse, if your the WP.
I just beat the crap out of the WP, while drinking in six Miller Genuine Draft Beers on the first secenario, the titans one, sorry, for the spelling I'm on number ten right now

.
The more I think of it , I think that there's no way the WP can ever ever win in this war. I killed while I'M drunk off my ass and almost fell over, over 180 WP for a lost of 25 for NATO. And most of the time I just hit the next turn button. I just send in the Helos in and they did half of the work. Also, most of my losses were because I ran out of ammo....Kill E'm Alll.

I'll try again tomarro, maybe I was ugly....

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Post #: 33

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 2:34:07 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreenDestiny

I get the impressions in this game..... that if you move..... you losse, if your the WP.
I just beat the crap out of the WP, while drinking in six Miller Genuine Draft Beers on the first secenario, the titans one, sorry, for the spelling I'm on number ten right now.
The more I think of it , I think that there's no way the WP can ever ever win in this war. I killed while I'M drunk off my ass and almost fell over, over 180 WP for a lost of 25 for NATO. And most of the time I just hit the next turn button. I just send in the Helos in and they did half of the work. Also, most of my losses were because I ran out of ammo....Kill E'm Alll.

I'll try again tomarro, maybe I was ugly....

I was constantly raising issues of playability and game balance on the beta board... just ask Robert and others how boring I was sometimes

I came out with impression it is nigh on impossible to win as WP vs. human in PBEM. Before Dredd jumps in - yes I lost one game vs. him as NATO (or was it a draw?) but it was due to my grand stupidity (I failed to notice sector X brings him mucho points so I simply forgot to defend it).

Now, let me add I love this game, it is very enjoyable overall, my general impressions are very positive, and - technically - is a first class product. I was, and still am, excited to be able to beta test it. But as for the playbalance - WP has snowball's chance in hell to win. That's just how it is.

Again, I said many times on the beta board it's not easy to complain about something - when you have no historic reference, ie, WW3 (luckily) never happened, so usual grognard's arguments about realism are thrown outta window. There are no stats like we have for WW2 - tank losses, causes, operational reports, production numbers... (Edit: I meant to say we have stats for WW2.)

But most of the game's parameters are so biased against WP, it's not funny...

O.

< Message edited by Oleg Mastruko -- 1/26/2005 1:42:50 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 2:38:08 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreenDestiny

I get the impressions in this game..... that if you move..... you losse, if your the WP.
I just beat the crap out of the WP, while drinking in six Miller Genuine Draft Beers on the first secenario, the titans one, sorry, for the spelling I'm on number ten right now.
The more I think of it , I think that there's no way the WP can ever ever win in this war. I killed while I'M drunk off my ass and almost fell over, over 180 WP for a lost of 25 for NATO. And most of the time I just hit the next turn button. I just send in the Helos in and they did half of the work. Also, most of my losses were because I ran out of ammo....Kill E'm Alll.

I'll try again tomarro, maybe I was ugly....

I was constantly raising issues of playability and game balance on the beta board... just ask Robert and others how boring I was sometimes I came out with impression it is nigh on impossible to win as WP vs. human in PBEM. Before Dredd jumps in - yes I lost one game vs. him as NATO (or was it a draw?) but it was due to my grand stupidity (I failed to notice sector X brings him mucho points so I simply forgot to defend it).

Now, let me add I love this game, it is very enjoyable overall, my general impressions are very positive, and - technically - is a first class product. I was, and still am, excited to be able to beta test it. But as for the playbalance - WP has snowball's chance in hell to win. That's just how it is.

Again, I said many times on the beta board it's not easy to complain about something - when you have no historic reference, ie, WW3 (luckily) never happened, so usual grognard's arguments about realism are thrown outta window. There are no stats like we have for WW3 - tank losses, causes, operational reports, production numbers...

But most of the game's parameters are so biased against WP, it's not funny...

O.

It was a draw.

But I still think, PBEM or generally against a human opponent, WP can win...but I will say that they have to make more of an effort than NATO....but I still think they can win...I'd also say that WP can win against NATO AI...against Human NATO player, it'll be alot tougher...but do-able.

I've started a game with someone and I have choosen to be Wp...so I'll let you know how I get on...

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Post #: 35

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 2:52:03 PM

ETF

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Well can one not just provide more assets to off set the Nato Tech and training superiority? ie wasnt it like 4 to 1 in the WP's favour in Germany?

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Post #: 36

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 2:55:41 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ETF

Well can one not just provide more assets to off set the Nato Tech and training superiority? ie wasnt it like 4 to 1 in the WP's favour in Germany?

There are big differences in the NATO/WP numbers in the scenarios...maybe not 4-1...but all the same. NATO units tend to have 3/4 units in a platoon...WP has, on occasio, 17 units...and there are more of them.

You just have to be very competent if you're going to play as WP against a human player, I think.

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Post #: 37

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 3:05:04 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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Starting numbers are usually around 3:1 or 4:1 in favor of WP, but at the end losses are usually like 7:1, or 8:1 in favor of NATO. Those were average outcomes during my testing. What GD said above: 180 WP losses for 25 NATO (more than 7:1).

Check out AAR from my game vs. Belphegor here on the public FPG board, I achieved kill rate 160:33 (roughly 5:1) and had the game lasted one turn longer he'd automatically lose because he went below 20% of his starting OOB (when you fall below 20% it's sudden death endgame).

More important than losses themselves is that I ended with 61 vehicles which is 56% of my OOB. He had 77 vehicles at the end, but that was just 18% of his OOB.

O.

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Post #: 38

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 3:57:40 PM

Erik Rutins

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Well, notwithstanding Oleg's comments, I've found that the advantage is not so much a NATO or WP issue, but one of the defender vs. the attacker. Getting in the first shot from a possibly concealed position with weapon systems of this level of lethality tends to be a big advantage. NATO may be able to get a bit more out of that defending advantage due to its weapon systems. A WP player will definitely lose more than he will kill if attacking, but quantity can definitely wear NATO down. When NATO is on the attack, WP gets those defending advantages and life for the WP player becomes a bit easier.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 39

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 4:20:51 PM

FritjofH

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From: Dresden
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I just finished the first tutorial as WP.
The AI just charged me and got slaughtered right away. I still have 40 'runners' (90%) and NATO is completely anihilated: 0 'runners'! But the game ended as a draw!

In the Staff Overview, NATO is listed with 0 runners but 45% of starting 'line' strength. Maybe I killed them too fast?

Beside this, I really like that game!

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Post #: 40

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 4:22:18 PM

Erik Rutins

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That's most likely due to the fact that you didn't get any units into the objective area before you killed them all, so yes looks like you slaughtered them too fast.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 41

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 4:23:17 PM

GreenDestiny

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In my game the WP is attacking.....and the WP has no chance... because if they move they get killed. And the WP don't even get a real chance to fire back....It just .... you move you losse, game over ...NATO wins.

< Message edited by GreenDestiny -- 1/26/2005 2:28:27 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 4:24:16 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreenDestiny
I get the impressions in this game..... that if you move..... you losse, if your the WP.
I just beat the crap out of the WP, while drinking in six Miller Genuine Draft Beers on the first secenario, the titans one, sorry, for the spelling I'm on number ten right now.

I should note also that the historical aftermath of each scenario gives you an idea of the balance. Try this one again as WP, or continue along that line as NATO and you'll find some situations that may challenge you more.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 43

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 4:27:56 PM

Erik Rutins

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GreenDestiny,

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreenDestiny
In this game the WP is attacking.....and the WP has no chance... because if they move they get killed. And the WP don't even get a real chance to fire back....It just .... you move you losse, game over ...NATO wins.

Have you just played the one scenario to date? Are you playing only NATO or WP? What kind of orders are you using for your attacking or defending units? It's definitely possible to get bushwhacked and attacking is difficult but my experience has not been that the WP has no chance.

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to GreenDestiny)

Post #: 44

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 4:28:59 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Well, notwithstanding Oleg's comments, I've found that the advantage is not so much a NATO or WP issue, but one of the defender vs. the attacker. Getting in the first shot from a possibly concealed position with weapon systems of this level of lethality tends to be a big advantage. NATO may be able to get a bit more out of that defending advantage due to its weapon systems. A WP player will definitely lose more than he will kill if attacking, but quantity can definitely wear NATO down. When NATO is on the attack, WP gets those defending advantages and life for the WP player becomes a bit easier.

Regards,

- Erik

I think I'd go with this explanation. Sounds very reasonable to me - however, I still say WP can win, and I have done against AI on several occasions, drawn with human NATO player and am playing another PBEM game as WP player with human NATO opponent.

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RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 4:31:34 PM

GreenDestiny

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From: Alamogordo NM
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I been playing NATO all the time, I'll try WP and see what happens, before I BS to much.

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Post #: 46

RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 4:42:10 PM

FritjofH

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From: Dresden
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quote:

The other feature was the concept of "sudden death" if you suffered sufficiently severe losses. The game is over if your "line" combat units (infantry, tank, recon but not HQ or arty) lose 80% of their initial strength during the course of the scenario. That is a pretty horrific loss in a short time and it forces you to keep in mind that 'winning' is not enough if it costs your superior everything he entrusted you with.

Please also note that there is a rule in the victory conditions that if the game ends with sudden death then the winner gets a share of the victory points for sectors he could not otherwise claim yet. This is to prevent a 'flame-out defence' where you know you will lose but you (briefly) stop the other guy well short of his victory objectives and trigger sudden death before he can motor over and collect his winnings! I forget which of our sneaky diabolical playtesters came up with that one now, but it was a great way to minimze the success of the other side while it lasted....

As stated above, it shouldn't have been too fast! It was just very fast and I should have gotten some victorypoints for sector 6...
Anyway, I know that I won this one

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RE: First impressions here please - 1/26/2005 4:43:56 PM

Erik Rutins

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Destiny,

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreenDestiny
I been playing NATO all the time, I'll try WP and see what happens, before I BS to much.

Ok, keep us posted. Could be you're also just very good at kicking the WP AI's butt. You might also want to try a PBEM or TCP/IP game against another human opponent.

Regards,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 48

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 2:25:22 AM

hank

Posts: 623
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From: west tn
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I've been looking for this info in the threads but can't find it; and I don't want to get almost all the way through buying it before I realize I won't be able to download it all on my already crowded HD.

How large is the downloaded file?

and does it really require 400 meg of Hard Drive space as the FPG website indicates?

thanks

Hank

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Post #: 49

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 2:51:06 AM

wodin

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400 megs is very small compared to most games these days.

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Post #: 50

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 3:37:56 AM

Sarge

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First off I would like to say well done to the developers and Matrix. I am a little apprehensive on most titles to make judgments or sway anyone's impression reading my review with only a few tutorials under my belt.

But I find myself amazed at the attention to detail, the developer must have gone to great lenghts impalement such depth. I find the game very stable and being a HUGE HTTR fan im having little to no learning curve picking up on the game mechanics.

Outstanding

PS: Would it be to early for me to start crying for the editor

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Post #: 51

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 3:50:33 AM

Jarhead0331

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From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

First off I would like to say well done to the developers and Matrix. I am a little apprehensive on most titles to make judgments or sway anyone's impression reading my review with only a few tutorials under my belt.

But I find myself amazed at the attention to detail, the developer must have gone to great lenghts impalement such depth. I find the game very stable and being a HUGE HTTR fan im having little to no learning curve picking up on the game mechanics.

Outstanding

PS: Would it be to early for me to start crying for the editor

Sure...amazing attention to detail...but no God damn freakin christ forsaken infantry...For the love of God...how can there be no infantry counters...I love the presentation of the game so far, but I just cant get over the absence of infantry counters...its a glaring ommission and poor design decision anyway you cut the cookie...In my opinion, adding infantry counters and permitting airmobile and special operations is absolutely crucial to the enjoyment of this game...

Thats just my opinion...I can't look the other way...

< Message edited by Jarhead0331 -- 1/27/2005 1:51:34 AM >

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Post #: 52

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 4:04:11 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jarhead0331

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

First off I would like to say well done to the developers and Matrix. I am a little apprehensive on most titles to make judgments or sway anyone's impression reading my review with only a few tutorials under my belt.

But I find myself amazed at the attention to detail, the developer must have gone to great lenghts impalement such depth. I find the game very stable and being a HUGE HTTR fan im having little to no learning curve picking up on the game mechanics.

Outstanding

PS: Would it be to early for me to start crying for the editor

Sure...amazing attention to detail...but no God damn freakin christ forsaken infantry...For the love of God...how can there be no infantry counters...I love the presentation of the game so far, but I just cant get over the absence of infantry counters...its a glaring ommission and poor design decision anyway you cut the cookie...In my opinion, adding infantry counters and permitting airmobile and special operations is absolutely crucial to the enjoyment of this game...

Thats just my opinion...I can't look the other way...

Why are you picking my post to spam

You got a opinion thats fine,but dont use anything from me to futher you childish respones.

Second you already had a reply to your disapointment from one of the administrators explaining their choice to leave them out of the game "AT THIS POINT"

Grow up

EDIT: upon reading more of your post I came to realized you (through own admission) don't even own the game, how is it that you have a imperssion, by the AAR's .

So let clear this up it not a impression ,its a opinion

< Message edited by Sarge -- 1/27/2005 2:16:25 AM >

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Post #: 53

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 4:16:49 AM

Jarhead0331

Posts: 145
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From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jarhead0331

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

First off I would like to say well done to the developers and Matrix. I am a little apprehensive on most titles to make judgments or sway anyone's impression reading my review with only a few tutorials under my belt.

But I find myself amazed at the attention to detail, the developer must have gone to great lenghts impalement such depth. I find the game very stable and being a HUGE HTTR fan im having little to no learning curve picking up on the game mechanics.

Outstanding

PS: Would it be to early for me to start crying for the editor

Sure...amazing attention to detail...but no God damn freakin christ forsaken infantry...For the love of God...how can there be no infantry counters...I love the presentation of the game so far, but I just cant get over the absence of infantry counters...its a glaring ommission and poor design decision anyway you cut the cookie...In my opinion, adding infantry counters and permitting airmobile and special operations is absolutely crucial to the enjoyment of this game...

Thats just my opinion...I can't look the other way...

Why are you picking my post to spam

You got a opinion thats fine,but dont use anything from me to futher you childish respones.

Second you already had a reply to your disapointment from one of the administrators explaining their choice to leave them out of the game "AT THIS POINT"

Grow up

EDIT: upon reading more of your post I came to realized you (through own admission) you don't even own the game, how is it that you have a imperssion, by the AAR's .

So let clear this up it not a impression ,its a opinion

Hey douchebag...don't start a pissing match with me...I'm entitled to my opinion and I can express it where ever I want...I'm not spaming your post...so F you!

And if you had half a brain, you'd realize that i bought the game since that initial post...so go screw yourself

(in reply to Sarge)

Post #: 54

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 4:20:46 AM

David Heath

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Hey Jarhead

Please calm down..... your response was just a little to heavy. Everyone is allowed post there views all we ask is that you do it in a calm manner.

Thank you.

David Heath
Matrix Games

< Message edited by David Heath -- 1/26/2005 11:59:56 PM >

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Post #: 55

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 4:24:26 AM

Jarhead0331

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From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Hey Jarhead

Please calm down..... your response was just a little to heavy. Everyone is can post there views all we ask is that you do it in a calm manner.

Thank you.

David Heath
Matrix Games

Understood, but really...I think he started it with the "grow up" comment...I know it looks like he is a vet here and I'm new, but I don't take kindly to someone telling me not to express my opinion...besides...my post complaining about the lack of infantry was more of a joke...I didn't mean for it to offend anybody...

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Post #: 56

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 4:27:01 AM

IronManBeta

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Thank you Sarge, for the kind words! I'm truly glad you are enjoying it.

The scope of the project kept growing by leaps and bounds during development and there is indeed a lot of depth in the data. Keeping up with that level of detail in the UI and AI were a big reason why the game ran late, but that is over now.

I hear your cries and am working on the editors already. Mostly they are already written - they just need to have a final few parts rewritten, then packaged all together and then documented. In the final approach to gold master I had to put a few things to the side (day job, wife, kids, community obligations) that I now need to attend to to some small degree, but apart from that I am good to go.

Then I will look at new scenarios and also at selectively adding in new features. There seems to be a call for 'independent dismounted infantry' and that is one of the 20 or so items on my version 1.1 list already. I just need to placate the boss and wife a little before I officially pick it up!

Cheers, Rob.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

First off I would like to say well done to the developers and Matrix. I am a little apprehensive on most titles to make judgments or sway anyone's impression reading my review with only a few tutorials under my belt.

But I find myself amazed at the attention to detail, the developer must have gone to great lenghts impalement such depth. I find the game very stable and being a HUGE HTTR fan im having little to no learning curve picking up on the game mechanics.

Outstanding

PS: Would it be to early for me to start crying for the editor

(in reply to Sarge)

Post #: 57

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 4:28:20 AM

Sarge

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From: ask doggie
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Sarge

First off I would like to say well done to the developers and Matrix. I am a little apprehensive on most titles to make judgments or sway anyone's impression reading my review with only a few tutorials under my belt.

But I find myself amazed at the attention to detail, the developer must have gone to great lenghts impalement such depth. I find the game very stable and being a HUGE HTTR fan im having little to no learning curve picking up on the game mechanics.

Outstanding

PS: Would it be to early for me to start crying for the editor

Edit:lets start over

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Post #: 58

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 5:11:50 AM

TheHellPatrol

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Just got a decisive victory as WP in Scenario 1 and i don't think the two sides are unbalanced, they just play differently. NATO has better equipment and on defense, and having stealth, they are quite formidable. With the WP they have more units which call for more "movement", i crushed the defending NATO forces with a classic pincer movement. One thing some of you might have overlooked, "the WP have no chance", is the bridging/amphibious movement capabilities your units have. As per the manual, engineers are not represented "per se", but their abilities are there and accounted for.
Played the right way either force can be deadly...damn good game

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Post #: 59

RE: First impressions here please - 1/27/2005 5:19:20 AM

Rainbow7

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From: Ottawa
Status: offline

Love the game so far. Of all the minor things, I appreciate the decision to remain in a window, allowing swapping in and out (and that the resolution phase carries on in the background). Turn-based strategy titles call out for this feature. I've only made it through the tutorials, but the game appears nicely polished.

A minor suggestion: the function keys call up certain displays, but could you allow a repeat press to close those same displays, or maybe ESC. At the moment it's a key to call it up, and a mouse press to close it down.

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Troubles overcome are good to tell. -Yiddish saying

(in reply to Sarge)

Post #: 60