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RE: Non-historical units - 1/26/2005 1:11:13 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Okey dokey. I will probably not be here when it is released, but it will give me something to look forward to in a year or 2.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 151
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/27/2005 12:56:48 AM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

We are going to place a"static" Utah, AG-16 at PH, correct? Given it's significance on turn 1 I think it's inclusion of value. I tested it's presence with PH attacks and it performs historically, usually drawing a bit of attention. Tanker made an excellent pic.



Ron

How did you class this old gal?? I don't think we can make her an AG or she will re-build if lost????

Don

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 152
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/27/2005 4:10:33 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		I think we should make it a PG, itll still attract a bomb, yet will not be rebuilt or misused.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
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Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

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(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 153
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/27/2005 6:11:30 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I classed her a BB with no armament or propulsion...ever. Reduced her durability and tested it repeatedly and it drew about 12 planes per PH attack on average. Seemed perfect to me. She was important enough to draw attention and be sunk so I like her as a static target at PH.

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Post #: 154
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/27/2005 7:23:34 AM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I classed her a BB with no armament or propulsion...ever. Reduced her durability and tested it repeatedly and it drew about 12 planes per PH attack on average. Seemed perfect to me. She was important enough to draw attention and be sunk so I like her as a static target at PH.


Makes sense - BB it is.

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 2/2/2005 8:19:22 PM >

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 155
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/27/2005 7:34:23 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		Pfft, target ship.... gah. Poor thing. Oh well, I live in a world called War Plan Orange where she still has 10 12" guns. So pffffft

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(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 156
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/27/2005 7:38:49 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Pfft, target ship.... gah. Poor thing. Oh well, I live in a world called War Plan Orange where she still has 10 12" guns. So pffffft



LOL. While Utah did have armament as a weapons test bed, she had a priority task of target ship and her weapons were normally masked by heavy tiers of lumber and unmanned.

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Post #: 157
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/27/2005 7:39:53 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		yeah.... she couldn't even put up .50 cal fire that day... poor planked up bastard.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 158
RE: Non-historical units - 1/27/2005 7:43:26 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Okey dokey. I will probably not be here when it is released, but it will give me something to look forward to in a year or 2.


Look. Wherever you go, if you can't even set up internet access, why even try setting up a democracy?

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Post #: 159
RE: Non-historical units - 1/27/2005 8:40:22 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
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From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		Because unlike us, they won't be doing electronic voting.

On topic (sort of), I'd like to echo the earlier poster and enquire as to estimated completion. A year, roughly? Less? Just curious.

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Post #: 160
RE: Non-historical units - 1/27/2005 8:52:34 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

Because unlike us, they won't be doing electronic voting.

On topic (sort of), I'd like to echo the earlier poster and enquire as to estimated completion. A year, roughly? Less? Just curious.


I've not had too much input for awhile since Don has master editor but I think it is well along. Couple more weeks and we should be testing it I think. Don't quote me though.

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Post #: 161
RE: Non-historical units - 1/27/2005 10:11:32 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		Fantastic. I'll leave you experts to the task. I'd help, but damn! I thought I knew my naval history until I got into UV and WITP. Some of you should be teaching or something.

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I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

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Post #: 162
AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 1/27/2005 10:41:56 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I mentioned earlier that many AGs (such as Argonne AG-31) and ASs, ADs, AVs, be included in game if not and given a cargo/troop capacity.

At present AGs not in OOB at first glance are:

AG 11 Procyon (ex Hog Islander)
AG 12 Gold Star
AG 27 Robert L Barnes (ex AO 14) *Don Bowen has this in OOB I believe
AG 31 Argonne (ex Hog Islander)
AG 32 Sumner (ex Holland Class AS)
AG 33 Kaula
AG 34 Alcor (became AD 34 and arrives San Diego Jan 45)
AG 37 Manomet (became AK 51 Aries and is available Feb 44 at San Diego)
AG 38 Mantinicus (became AP 75 Gimini and is available Nov 43 at San Diego)
AG 41 Panay (ex Midway avail April 42 at Seattle)
AG 42 Camanga (became AK Oliver Olson April 42 on West Coast)
AG 43 Majaba (available May 42)
AG 44 Malanao (available June 42)
AG 45 Taganak (available May 42)
AG 46 Tuluran (available Dec 42)
AG 49 Anacapa (available Sept 42) Q-ship for a time
AG 50 Kopara (available Sept 42)
AG 66 Besboro (available Sept 42)
AG 68 Basilan (AR actually, avail Nov 44)
AG 69 Burias (AR, avail Feb 45)
AG 70 Zaniah (AR, avail Sept 44)
AG 71 Baham (AR, avail Aug 44)

Work in progress...

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 1/31/2005 4:07:23 PM >

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Post #: 163
RE: AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 1/27/2005 4:35:57 PM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		Weren't those Ag's command ships that sat in harbour with an Admiral on board and looked pretty? I don't remember the Argonne going anywhere.

Mike

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Post #: 164
RE: AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 1/27/2005 4:43:42 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Great research Ron, keep it coming.

-----------------------------

AG 11 Procyon (ex Hog Islander). This World War I era ship was transferred to the New York Naval Militia and renamed Empire State. A new C2 cargo ship with the name Procyon was commissioned just before the war as AK-19 (eventually AKA-2). This ship was very active in the Pacific during World War II and is in the Scenario 15 OOB as a small AK. She will be a C2 AK in our scenario.

AG 12 Gold Star. This was the ex Arcturus (AK-12) and served as flagship of the small Guam squadron. Luckily was also used as a transport and was in the Philippines on December 7th. She was then attached to the Asiatic Fleet and used as a cargo ship, eventually being re-designated as AK-12 (keeping the name Gold Star as another ship had been named Arcturus). She is missing from the Scenario 15 OOB but is present in ours.

AG 27 Robert L Barnes (ex AO 14). This ugly little ship was little more than a pilot house on top of an oil tank. She is in our OOB at Guam and we also use her icon for a general class of station tankers - small slow AO for refueling at forward bases.

AG 31 Argonne (ex Hog Islander). Previously a transport (AP-4) and then a Submarine Tender (AS-10), this ship was the flagship of the Base Force, U.S. Fleet at was present at Pearl Harbor on December 7th. She operated as a combined Salvage Ship/Repair Ship and will be included in our scenario as an AR.

AG 32 Sumner (ex Holland Class AS). Previously the Bushnell (AS-1), this ship had been re-classified as a survey ship prior to World War II and is excluded from our scenario.

AG 33 Kaula. Originally used as a general purpose cargo ship in the Hawaiian Islands (and as far as Johnston and Palmyra). Later preformed the same function in Alaska. Missed this one and will add it - Thanks.

AG 34 Alcor (became AD 34 and arrives San Diego Jan 45).
AG 37 Manomet (became AK 51 Aries and is available Feb 44 at San Diego)
AG 38 Mantinicus (became AP 75 Gemini and is available Nov 43 at San Diego)
Missed these three also - I'll add them.

AG 41 Panay (ex Midway avail April 42 at Seattle). Used as a general transport on the Pacific coast. However, since both her names are duplicates we'll probably skip this one.

AG 42 Camanga (became AK Oliver Olson April 42 on West Coast). Actually this was the civilian cargo ship Oliver Olson, acquired in April, 1942 and named Camanga. She was used as a cargo ship in the Samoan/Ellice Islands and later around Noumea. We'll add her.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 165
RE: AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 1/27/2005 6:57:37 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Weren't those Ag's command ships that sat in harbour with an Admiral on board and looked pretty? I don't remember the Argonne going anywhere.

Mike


They moved alot of support units and supplies all over the place. Even Sumner (ex AS-2 Bushnell) was used early war moving support units etc to far flung bases.

I recommend that ASs, ARs, AVs also get some cargo/troop capacity because of this.

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Post #: 166
RE: AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 1/27/2005 6:59:24 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I was just fiddling with Pry's Navsource page and decided to look up a few things and noticed a whack of usefull shipping in the Auxilliary section.

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Post #: 167
RE: Non-historical units - 1/27/2005 7:42:43 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Okey dokey. I will probably not be here when it is released, but it will give me something to look forward to in a year or 2.


Look. Wherever you go, if you can't even set up internet access, why even try setting up a democracy?

I am not going over there to set up a democracy. I could care less if they break down after we leave and have at each other. I am going over there to do what I am paid to do in the army. Fight.

The main bases do have internet capability, but the laptops are army owned, so no games. I already know where my company will be stationed, and it does not have internet capability. Nor the time to use it if we had it. Try 6 miles outside Fallujah.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 168
RE: AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 1/27/2005 8:00:20 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I was just fiddling with Pry's Navsource page and decided to look up a few things and noticed a whack of usefull shipping in the Auxilliary section.



Pry's Navsource page ??? Got a link??

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 169
RE: AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 1/27/2005 8:27:00 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I was just fiddling with Pry's Navsource page and decided to look up a few things and noticed a whack of usefull shipping in the Auxilliary section.



Pry's Navsource page ??? Got a link??

www.navsource.org/index2.htm

Don! Not know Pry had this and is a bit of an expert? Wow...I feel better after all the links you gave me. I love this site...one of my faves.


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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 170
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/30/2005 3:39:05 AM   
bstarr


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: Texas, by God!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

We are going to place a"static" Utah, AG-16 at PH, correct? Given it's significance on turn 1 I think it's inclusion of value. I tested it's presence with PH attacks and it performs historically, usually drawing a bit of attention. Tanker made an excellent pic.


Ron

How did you class this old gal?? I don't think we can make her an AG or she will re-build if lost????

Don


If y'all are adding Utah, is there going to be any attempt to somehow add some umph to the Pearl Attack. I have to restart about a dozen times before the japs ever have a realistic result; adding another target is going to make it even harder to get an historic level of damage.

_____________________________



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Post #: 171
RE: AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 1/30/2005 8:03:41 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I was just fiddling with Pry's Navsource page and decided to look up a few things and noticed a whack of usefull shipping in the Auxilliary section.



Pry's Navsource page ??? Got a link??

www.navsource.org/index2.htm

Don! Not know Pry had this and is a bit of an expert? Wow...I feel better after all the links you gave me. I love this site...one of my faves.



I have to say, thank you Pry for Navsource. Without it War Plan Orange might not have seen the light of day.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 172
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/31/2005 5:18:42 PM   
bstarr


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: Texas, by God!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

We are going to place a"static" Utah, AG-16 at PH, correct? Given it's significance on turn 1 I think it's inclusion of value. I tested it's presence with PH attacks and it performs historically, usually drawing a bit of attention. Tanker made an excellent pic.


Ron

How did you class this old gal?? I don't think we can make her an AG or she will re-build if lost????

Don


If y'all are adding Utah, is there going to be any attempt to somehow add some umph to the Pearl Attack. I have to restart about a dozen times before the japs ever have a realistic result; adding another target is going to make it even harder to get an historic level of damage.


guess I blasphemed this time.

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Post #: 173
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 1/31/2005 7:50:15 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

We are going to place a"static" Utah, AG-16 at PH, correct? Given it's significance on turn 1 I think it's inclusion of value. I tested it's presence with PH attacks and it performs historically, usually drawing a bit of attention. Tanker made an excellent pic.


Ron

How did you class this old gal?? I don't think we can make her an AG or she will re-build if lost????

Don


If y'all are adding Utah, is there going to be any attempt to somehow add some umph to the Pearl Attack. I have to restart about a dozen times before the japs ever have a realistic result; adding another target is going to make it even harder to get an historic level of damage.


I find the damage averages out to be more severe than historic, but with Utah added, it becomes more balanced. Problem is the damage model. Floatation damage is a joke in terms of longevity (progressive flooding on the other hand seems too severe for Japan)and needs to be made semi permanent, like only 50% of flooding can be "pumped out" as it is now, and the remainder should take at least as long as system damage to remedy, and only in Naval Shipyards.

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Post #: 174
RE: AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 1/31/2005 11:12:23 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I mentioned earlier that many AGs (such as Argonne AG-31) and ASs, ADs, AVs, be included in game if not and given a cargo/troop capacity.

At present AGs not in OOB at first glance are:

AG 11 Procyon (ex Hog Islander)
AG 12 Gold Star
AG 27 Robert L Barnes (ex AO 14) *Don Bowen has this in OOB I believe
AG 31 Argonne (ex Hog Islander)
AG 32 Sumner (ex Holland Class AS)
AG 33 Kaula
AG 34 Alcor (became AD 34 and arrives San Diego Jan 45)
AG 37 Manomet (became AK 51 Aries and is available Feb 44 at San Diego)
AG 38 Mantinicus (became AP 75 Gimini and is available Nov 43 at San Diego)
AG 41 Panay (ex Midway avail April 42 at Seattle)
AG 42 Camanga (became AK Oliver Olson April 42 on West Coast)
AG 43 Majaba (available May 42)
AG 44 Malanao (available June 42)
AG 45 Taganak (available May 42)
AG 46 Tuluran (available Dec 42)
AG 49 Anacapa (available Sept 42) Q-ship for a time
AG 50 Kopara (available Sept 42)
AG 66 Besboro (available Sept 42)
AG 68 Basilan (AR actually, avail Nov 44)
AG 69 Burias (AR, avail Feb 45)
AG 70 Zaniah (AR, avail Sept 44)
AG 71 Baham (AR, avail Aug 44)

Work in progress...


Think that's it for game purposes.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 175
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 2/1/2005 12:06:30 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

We are going to place a"static" Utah, AG-16 at PH, correct? Given it's significance on turn 1 I think it's inclusion of value. I tested it's presence with PH attacks and it performs historically, usually drawing a bit of attention. Tanker made an excellent pic.


Ron

How did you class this old gal?? I don't think we can make her an AG or she will re-build if lost????

Don


If y'all are adding Utah, is there going to be any attempt to somehow add some umph to the Pearl Attack. I have to restart about a dozen times before the japs ever have a realistic result; adding another target is going to make it even harder to get an historic level of damage.


I find the damage averages out to be more severe than historic, but with Utah added, it becomes more balanced. Problem is the damage model. Floatation damage is a joke in terms of longevity (progressive flooding on the other hand seems too severe for Japan)and needs to be made semi permanent, like only 50% of flooding can be "pumped out" as it is now, and the remainder should take at least as long as system damage to remedy, and only in Naval Shipyards.


so what happens if the utah survives??? what is it used for? does it get an upgrade???

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Post #: 176
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 2/1/2005 12:37:52 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		It is an immovable unit. Target ship for first turn attack or any subsequent.

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(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 177
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 2/1/2005 2:22:23 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

It is an immovable unit. Target ship for first turn attack or any subsequent.


so it sits at pearl as a target for the rest of the war???

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Post #: 178
RE: Ex-Minekaze and Ex-Momi Patrol Boats - 2/1/2005 3:45:44 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

It is an immovable unit. Target ship for first turn attack or any subsequent.


so it sits at pearl as a target for the rest of the war???


Yep, hypothetically training dive bomber pilots. Can't believe people want to use it for something else in an earlier thread. It is just a historical target at PH.

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Post #: 179
RE: AGs and other auxilliaries cargo/troop capable - 2/3/2005 3:30:55 AM   
CobraAus


Posts: 2322
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From: Geelong Australia
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quote:

AG 27 Robert L Barnes (ex AO 14). This ugly little ship was little more than a pilot house on top of an oil tank. She is in our OOB at Guam and we also use her icon for a general class of station tankers - small slow AO for refueling at forward bases.

new icon

Cobra Aus




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 180
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