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Once Again The History Channel - 1/31/2005 2:12:37 AM   
BrucePowers


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As I sit here and type this, the History Channel is showing a show called Secret Luftwaffe Aircraft of WWII. I have only watched it for 10 minutes and its full of a lot of bunk. I prefer Mythbusters.
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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 1/31/2005 5:44:54 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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I love those "they would have won the war if only" programs. They're kinda like the National Enquirer version of history.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 1/31/2005 5:48:56 PM   
showboat1


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They conveniently ignore the fact: what were they gonna use for fuel and for pilots?

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 1/31/2005 9:12:21 PM   
marky


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lol true

but its jusa wat if scenario

alot of games including WITP ogffer those kinds of scenarios

though i do agree

wat the hell would they use for pilots and fuel?

in the last few months of the war, germany was being turned into RUBBLE by RAF and USAAF bombers by day and night

their communications, bridges, rail lines, factories, other industry, and oil facilities were being obliterated

so, wat IF they did have enuff ME 262 fighters? King Tigers? UBER weapons?

so?

wat if they did?

who the hell was gonna fly em?
or drive them?

i think all the geniuses and the uber dum@$$ hitler himself forgot about all that...

BESIDES

it was too little and FAR too late to stem the advance of the allied forces

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 1/31/2005 9:20:27 PM   
Mr.Frag


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If you want, go into the scenario editor, and change all the 1945 Japanese aircraft to be available when the game starts. You'll find it actually makes very little difference in the game overall.

The PTO is one of those classic examples of rock, paper, scissors.

Ships moved troops that built airfields. Any one element by itself had no real use. Crank up the power of one of them and you'll just find yourself lagging behind with the other two.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 2:39:17 AM   
BrucePowers


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Mr. Frag is right. Look at what the axis faced - Russia 100 million people, US 100 million plus, Great Britain, Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, Brazil, etc. That is a lot of manpower and industry they could not touch. It would not be stopped. The US could have built more. Also, the A-Bomb would have been used where it did the most "good" even Germany.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 3:42:44 AM   
rhondabrwn


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I watched that show and I would hardly call it "bunk"... it was basically presenting a history of some rather impressive German aeronautical engineering and production efforts that occurred despite the allied bombing. I found the film footage of these early jet fighters fascinating.

I didn't come away with the impression that the purpose of the show was to make some sort of "what if" case for a German victory in World War II. I don't recall any wild assertions about fleets of super weapons destroying the Allies. They clearly identified the shortage of trained pilots, metals for construction, and fuel to burn.

If soeone only watched 10 minutes of it, I really don't think they are in a position to give such negative reviews.

Am I the only one here who enjoys the History Channel? It seems a popular target for bashing.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 3:44:33 AM   
rhondabrwn


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And more importantly, it emphasized the transfer of that technology to the Soviets when they overran Eastern Germany where most of the aircraft industry was located.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 3:53:24 AM   
watchtower


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On most of the progs that are about the pacific war there is one quote that is used often. It should be.

Yamamoto "I shall run wild for the first six months or a year. But for the second and third years I have utterly no confidence."

It's amazing how huch he is misquoted. Revisionised histotory?

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 4:05:22 AM   
watchtower


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Now thats a great war game idea! War starts in forty Five. Germany has the tiger and betterin large numbers - Japan gets Aussie and india. USA has the bomb but can't use it due to reprisals in Aus. And germany is lauching v4's into new york. Russia goes for china/ hymalaya region.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 12:01:24 PM   
freeboy

 

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I always wonder at the one very real, unused weapon of mass destruction German scientist did discover... NERVE GAS... and let us be thankful that it was not used... for Normandy and the Eastern fron very likely would have slowed to a stop until we where able to copy samples or use the bomb.. shudder

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 12:24:04 PM   
BlackVoid


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A result of a war is always in doubt.

There are tons of examples in history when the underdog won.
Greece against Persia
Alexander against the World
Byzantine against the barbarians

Just a few examples when a much smaller force achieved victory over a large one.
Because WW2 turned into an attrition war, the Allies have won it.

The Me262 could have been ready in 1943, while there was still plenty of fuel and pilots and the German economy was still in fighting shape. This could have delayed allied victory by years.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 5:35:29 PM   
Hartley


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The Japanese in this game sorely lack something like the B-17/B-24.

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Mystery Explained - 2/1/2005 6:05:07 PM   
mogami


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Hi, I am watching the History Channel "7 Wonders" show. They acted like there exists a mystery to pyramids. Listen I can explain them easy.
I visted Eygpt several times and have seen the pyramids. (all of them including the brick ones and all the ones that have fallen down over time)

Once apon a time in Egypt when a man died he was buried in a plain hole in the ground.
The guys who dug the hole were given lunch. The lunch included free beer.
Now a lunch with a free beer is nice but these guys thought "more beer is better" So they offered to build a little brick house on top of the hole. Now they got several days of free beer.
They thought "more beer is better" so they began building larger brick houses over the holes.
After a while the houses were large square buildings (mastaba's or something) So they thought "more beer is better" and began building a second house on top of the first house on top of the hole in the ground.
Well they kept doing this, piling house on top of house to keep getting free beer. Also they found that keeping the beer inside the house kept it cooler. (drinking 104 degree beer in 104 degree weather is not as good as drinking 80 degree beer in 104 degree weather)
Eventually they could not pile any more houses on top of houses. Some of them fell over and so to keep their reputations and thus their jobs they learned how to do foundations and learned to fill in the slope of the step pyramids to make true pyramids. Imagine their delight when they discovered that a pyramid was 20 degrees cooler inside compared to the boxes.
So pryamids are nothing more then the evolution of the beer cooler. Built by people who were given free beer for as long as the job lasted. Not much mystery remains since "more beer is better" and "cooler beer is better"

< Message edited by Mogami -- 2/1/2005 11:10:39 AM >


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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 7:08:00 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

As I sit here and type this, the History Channel is showing a show called Secret Luftwaffe Aircraft of WWII. I have only watched it for 10 minutes and its full of a lot of bunk. I prefer Mythbusters.


The problem with these things is that no one would watch a program called "Wild and
wonderous ideas that the Germans were playing around with while losing WW II"
Germany had flown a Jet before the war really began..., but they still didn't have
a really dependible jet engine when it ended. Radical new technology always has
lengthy "teething problems". A lot of historians have argued quite convincingly that
it was the Germans facination with "cutting edge" technology that lost them the war.
They were always looking for the "magic bullet" or ultimate weapon----which kept
them from stabalizing designs and mass producing enough good weapons to meet
their needs.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 7:39:38 PM   
freeboy

 

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Excellent point, as too the not producing enough good quality weapons, but to win the war they needed to keep the US out.. so imo they lost they war politically by alleigning with Japan, as the full weight of US production eventually, no bomb included, is goingto squish them.

I remember the really funny p[ost about her channels history way back when last year.. I will see if I can find it...

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 8:05:10 PM   
tsimmonds


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quote:

The Japanese in this game sorely lack something like the B-17/B-24.

So did the Japanese IRL.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 8:15:13 PM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

The Japanese in this game sorely lack something like the B-17/B-24.

So did the Japanese IRL.


Really?

Well the kamikaze comes close, since it never worries about return fuel. I wonder if you can kamikaze Bettys in this game (Imagine the range - you might be able to hit Midway from Tokyo)?

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 8:18:16 PM   
Hartley


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Kamikazes can't shut down bases.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 8:23:11 PM   
dtx175

 

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If you want insight into why the Germans didn't use nerve agents, check out the superb book "A higher form of killing" a history of biological & chemical warfare. It describes how at the end of WWI a german artillery corporal(?) was gased & temporarily blinded by mustard gas. It turned him off from chemical weapons (the corporal was Hitler). (there were also other reasons the Germans didn't use them)

The book also has a copy of a letter by Winston Churchill to his chief's of staff imploring them to "douse" German with mustard gas. He notes that they can hit Germany w/20 ton of mustard for every 1 ton the Germans could send in return (of course, he didn't know that 1 ton would be nerve agent). Churchill notes that there is no morality issue, that changing to chem weapons in WWI was no different than a woman changing the length of her skirt.

On jets: Even an unreliable jet engine is likely to be far more reliable than a piston engine. Jet engines have far less parts than piston engines and are much easier to maintain. While things like Tiger tanks were problematic because of reliability, if the Me-262 had been released early, it would have given the Germans a huge advantage.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 8:45:26 PM   
kaleun

 

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quote:

If you want insight into why the Germans didn't use nerve agents, check out the superb book "A higher form of killing" a history of biological & chemical warfare. It describes how at the end of WWI a german artillery corporal(?) was gased & temporarily blinded by mustard gas. It turned him off from chemical weapons (the corporal was Hitler). (there were also other reasons the Germans didn't use them)



Yep, its called tit for Tat.


quote:

On jets: Even an unreliable jet engine is likely to be far more reliable than a piston engine. Jet engines have far less parts than piston engines and are much easier to maintain. While things like Tiger tanks were problematic because of reliability, if the Me-262 had been released early, it would have given the Germans a huge advantage.


As I understand it, the early jets that powered the M262, once mass produced (of sorts) had a lot of problems with the quality control, (happens when you use slave labor for technical duties) so that the powerplants only worked for a few hours before needing refurbishing. Of course I may be wrong.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 8:52:07 PM   
Mr.Frag


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quote:

if the Me-262 had been released early, it would have given the Germans a huge advantage.


Unless it happened to be available before the Battle of Britain was lost, it's just another toy. Had it been around to take part in the battle, perhaps Sea Lion would have been possible. Afterwards, it's just more of an annoyance factor. People tend to think of D-Day as the turning point, the way was already lost for Germany long before hand with the failure to deal with England before the Yanks entered into things. Without England, D-Day would have had to stage in New York

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 9:13:10 PM   
String


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People also forget that if the germans had prolonged the war it would have been Berlin and not Hiroshima that we would be talking about, even if they would not have folded after that the americans would have produced (and did irl) more bombs and turned germany into a nuclear wasteland..

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 11:04:43 PM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

if the Me-262 had been released early, it would have given the Germans a huge advantage.


Unless it happened to be available before the Battle of Britain was lost, it's just another toy. Had it been around to take part in the battle, perhaps Sea Lion would have been possible. Afterwards, it's just more of an annoyance factor. People tend to think of D-Day as the turning point, the way was already lost for Germany long before hand with the failure to deal with England before the Yanks entered into things. Without England, D-Day would have had to stage in New York


The ME262 had the ability, given the right conditions, certainly later than BoB, to completely shut down the strategic bombing against Germany, since the fighters couldn't shoot them down for the most part. The Allies could destroy them on landings or takeoffs, but there was a sizeable window in the war where the air superiority wasn't good enough for the Allies to where they could've coped with shooting them down on the airfields (nor did the Allies fighters have the range they did later) when they were landing or taking off. Of course some of them were based underground such that they were safe anyway.

Galland believed they could do it, only I don't know how long he thought it would take or what other factors (like getting them earlier) would be needed.

Heinkel had a jet that was available earlier, but politics turned Hitler's attention to Messerschmidt.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/1/2005 11:12:23 PM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

People also forget that if the germans had prolonged the war it would have been Berlin and not Hiroshima that we would be talking about, even if they would not have folded after that the americans would have produced (and did irl) more bombs and turned germany into a nuclear wasteland..


I wouldn't be entirely sure of that, not that it matters. Bombing a European country that didn't attack one of your naval bases was quite a different cookie. There was reasonable confidence that the Enola Gay wouldn't get shot dfown. Could you guarentee that against the Germans? I also think it wouldn't have been used against the Germans simply because they weren't planning the fanatical resistance that the Japanese had showed. Even so, it is possible that with all things being equal between AJ and GE (and they weren't of course) that you might still spend it on JA, for one thing because the bomb could be used to stop the USSR massive attack from helping them to acquire territory in Asia.

I think with A-bombs built (two only) they end up using them, but I don't think they use them against GE unless GE is the only enemy left.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/2/2005 1:35:37 AM   
fbastos


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quote:

The ME262 had the ability, given the right conditions, certainly later than BoB, to completely shut down the strategic bombing against Germany, since the fighters couldn't shoot them down for the most part.


Strategic bombing did little to decrease German industrial production, which peaked by 1944 - and by then the war was lost already due to the Soviet Uniton alone.

Strategic bombing was a failure, imho.

F.

< Message edited by fbastos -- 2/1/2005 11:35:40 PM >


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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/2/2005 5:30:07 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartley

The Japanese in this game sorely lack something like the B-17/B-24.


That's because the Japanese Economy sorely lacked the resources to get involved
in producing a Strategic Air Force. Choices had to be made as to where the limited
assets would be invested. Strategic Air Forces were not a cheap investment, and it
turned out that only the US and Britian could afford them. Japan "made do" with
their long ranged twin engined bombers when they felt the need of this type of force.
You have to remember that on a "value of goods produced" basis, Japan's entire
economy was only a slight bit larger than a single US company..., General Motors.

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RE: Once Again The History Channel - 2/3/2005 6:50:04 AM   
509th Bob


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An interesting series of thread issues here.

Let's see, the Nazis did not use chemical weapons ("nerve gas," etc.) because they feared that U.S./U.K. developments were as advanced as their own (not true), and would be used against Nazi forces. The historical evidence (including the U.S. decision not to gas the hell out of Iwo Jima) is that everybody feared everybody else's theorized chemical warfare ability. Who was actually on top? Germany, followed by Japan. The Allies came in distance thirds and fourths in terms of actual abilities. Of course, nuclear weapons would have later put "paid" to any Nazi effort on this track.

The U.S. Manhattan Project (Atom Bomb) was DESIGNED for us against the Nazis (true). The Nazis surrendered before we (the U.S.) could use it on them! This is fairly well established (even on the History Channel!). As to the assertion we only built two, this assertion lies entirely upon non-historical premises. We built two because that was all the time that there was. The first ("Little Boy," a U-238 bomb) was a crude barrel-type fission weapon. This was a PROVEN and known technology, although it produced limited nuclear yields (as was known at the time). The U.S. could have easily mass-produced these weapons (and such weapons are what the U.S. Government fears today for the same reasons). The Plutonium bomb dropped on Nagasaki (by the largely forgotten B-29 named "Bock's Car") was a PU-239 weapon using implosive-sphere technology to obtain a larger nuclear yield. Would we have delayed the nuclear elimination of Nazi Germany to use only PU-239 weapons? The world will never know, and the Brandenburg Gate still stands in the heart of Berlin because they never were faced with learning that lesson. (P.S., I'm glad I got to see Berlin when it was still "walled.")

The Japanese failed to create a "strategic bomber force." True. Their pre-war estimates were that the U.S. would rather surrender than fight. The rest of the Allies would be forced into surrender. The Yamamoto quote about running amok for 6 months to a year is a reflection of that viewpoint. Of course, the IJN training was derived from and based upon a Royal Navy-origin viewpoint that emphasized comprehending the difference between short-term and long-term war objectives. Thus, Yamamoto was smart enough to understand that there would be short-term gains that would be off-set by later industrial odds that Japan could not even begin to think it could match, lest master. Hence, his un-verbalized (but understood-within-the-context-of-Japanese-
cultural-speaking) message that Japan could not win a protracted war. The IJA, on the other hand, was modeled after the Prussian Army military doctrine that conquest was the end of all matters. This was Hitler's viewpoint, and greatest failure. Thus, the IJA was based upon the now-disproven Nazi/facist model that overwhelming force won under all circumstances. Plus, the IJA, not the IJN, controlled the Japanese war government. As "Ace Ventura" was wont to say, "Can you say LOSER?"

By the end of the war, the IJN had plans to destroy the Panama Canal locks, and it might have delayed the invasion of Japan (Operation Downfall - encompassing Operations Olympic and Coronet - see my previous posts where I erroneously identified Shikoku as Olympic's goal instead of Kyushu - views about eradication (i.e., genocide) of Japanese population still valid). Since now-published reports indicate that the U.S. government would have used chemical warfare agents to kill Japanese defenders, and the post-war experiments of the U.S. Government showed it's willingness to expose U.S. soldiers to radiation hazards caused by near-bursts of nuclear weapons, I have no doubts whatsoever that the U.S. would have willingly (and deservedly-so) nuked Japan into oblivion (not a statement in hyperbole, but instead in practical effect) in order to reduce U.S. casualties. Remember, World War II was fought decades before political correctness made it unfashionable to kill one's enemies.

And for the whiners who want to drivel on about starving Japan through naval/submarine blockades, read the history about Curtis LeMay, who altered U.S. bombing tactics from high-altitude precision bombings (such as it was at the time) to low/medium-level incendiary strikes. We were killing civilians in wholesale lots, and we had NO problems about doing so. There is NOTHING in the historical record that indicates that the U.S. would have stopped this practice if Japan had not surrendered when it did. The Japanese are just damned lucky we DIDN'T decide to kill them all, and didn't decide to make them confront their sins (like we did with the Nazis/Germans).

I would not have treated the Japanese so kindly as Maccy-boy.

Rant over (actually, Rant Out).

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-- Col. David M. Shoup, Tarawa, Nov. 21, 1943

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