RE: Radar for Old US Battleships

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RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 7:23:55 AM

Ron Saueracker

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You gonna try that cool camo pattern Saratoga sported in 45?

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Post #: 181

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 7:34:32 AM

Tankerace

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eh, what the Hell. If not tonight, tomorrow.

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Post #: 182

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 11:01:40 AM

CobraAus

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quote:

And, my first attempt at a camo pattern

check this site TankerAce should help us both cover all cameo 1941 to 46 Us Navy
www.shipcamouflage.com

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Post #: 183

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 11:18:31 AM

Tankerace

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Hey thanks a lot.

Here is the Saratoga, I'm starting the Essexes next.

These things take about 30 minutes to hand camo, wow....

Thanks for all the compliments everyone.

Funny thing, the camo really works. It looks like all the camo is black, but if you really look and focus you can see the different shades.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 1/31/2005 3:19:17 AM >

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Post #: 184

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 11:40:48 AM

Tankerace

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The Essex, as based off of Randolph in 1944:

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Post #: 185

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 3:38:10 PM

Tankerace

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Just so I know how far to go with this, do you guys want this for the upgrade graphics:

1941: Standard Grey, some PH BBs Grey and White.
1942: Measure 12 Modified (see my South Dakota Graphic) on most, some ships navy blue.
1943: Measure 32 (see Missouri, Essex, and Saratoga graphics) on some, Measure 33 and 22 on others
1944: Measures 32 and 33 predominate, some MS 22. Some ships will stay the same, others will switch schemes.
1945: Measure 22 which is the current navy blue up to height of stern, and grey above that.

Itll take a bit of work, but I think I can do it.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 1/31/2005 8:04:10 AM >

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Post #: 186

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:01:33 PM

Tankerace

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To provide an example, I re did the Northamptons.

As she appeared at Pearl Harbor, in MS 1 Camo. Note grey foremast and white false bow wave.

Northampton class in mid-late '42 (I suggest 10/42 fit) MS 21 Camo, navy blue on all vertical surfaces.

Louisville in late '43/44 MS 32 Camo, similar to that of the previous I posted.

And what I had originally done, Louisville in 1945 in MS 22 Camo. While patterns are different, I think perhaps this could "spice things up" a bit for WitPers. Thoughts?

(BTW, each camo pattern is hand drawn, I did not scale down a photo or anything.)

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 1/31/2005 8:02:00 AM >

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Post #: 187

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:10:27 PM

Tankerace

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Wow.... the OS2U on the catapult stands out like a sore thumb in the MS 21 camo.

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Post #: 188

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:14:17 PM

Tankerace

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Here is a Fletcher in MS 21 camo.

So, do we want to take a camo approach on all ships, some, none at all, or what?

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 1/31/2005 8:14:25 AM >

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Post #: 189

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:17:43 PM

Tankerace

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Which SoDak looks better, my original attempt:

Or this one:

I think the colors are more accurate in the seond one.

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Post #: 190

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:18:31 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

To provide an example, I re did the Northamptons.

As she appeared at Pearl Harbor, in MS 1 Camo. Note grey foremast and white false bow wave.

Northampton class in mid-late '42 (I suggest 10/42 fit) MS 21 Camo, navy blue on all vertical surfaces.

Louisville in late '43/44 MS 32 Camo, similar to that of the previous I posted.

And what I had originally done, Louisville in 1945 in MS 22 Camo. While patterns are different, I think perhaps this could "spice things up" a bit for WitPers. Thoughts?

(BTW, each camo pattern is hand drawn, I did not scale down a photo or anything.)

THIS IS SOOOOO COOL!

Gonna add the fore funnel extensions to Northampton or Portlands?

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 1/31/2005 9:22:35 AM >

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Post #: 191

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:21:15 PM

Ron Saueracker

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Uhhhhhh....I like the varied approach. I also like spicy chili made with differrent beans, peppers, cuts of meat etc! Bring on the flavour explosion...and no secondary explosions!

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Post #: 192

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:22:45 PM

Tankerace

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Hahahahaha.... I've been up all night, but after my classes and a nap, I'll pop out some more.

I must confess.... I have a strong urge to make a pink submarine, and put Grant, C. as a sub leader....

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Post #: 193

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:26:29 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Hahahahaha.... I've been up all night, but after my classes and a nap, I'll pop out some more.

I must confess.... I have a strong urge to make a pink submarine, and put Grant, C. as a sub leader....

What was the subs name in Operation Petticoat? No reason why it can't be in the non respawn version of this.

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Post #: 194

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:26:50 PM

Tankerace

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quote:

Gonna add the fore funnel extensions to Northampton or Portlands?

I don't think so, they don't really show up that well, and it kinda looks like they have them anyway.

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Post #: 195

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 4:27:04 PM

Tankerace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Hahahahaha.... I've been up all night, but after my classes and a nap, I'll pop out some more.

I must confess.... I have a strong urge to make a pink submarine, and put Grant, C. as a sub leader....

What was the subs name in Operation Petticoat? No reason why it can't be in the non respawn version of this.

The Sea Tiger.

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Post #: 196

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 5:34:04 PM

bstarr

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Wow! I really like the camo patterns. Ms 21 is cool as hell. by all means, go for it.

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Post #: 197

US Cruiser Changes - 1/31/2005 7:53:47 PM

Don Bowen

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General note for Cruiser Radars: the standard for all U.S. Cruisers was one air warning set and one surface search set. Current class definitions include one or the other. I am going to adjust all radar upgrades to include both. When a ship that previously did not have radar upgrades to a class that has one type I will also add the other. This is not 100% accurate but is a reasonable generalization. Also, there is not a lot to work with in radar devices and many separate types have been compressed in to air search (air search, fighter control, height finder).

Omaha
(1239) Radar Upgraded to two sets
(1240) Radar Upgraded to two sets

Pensacola
(1223) - (1226) Radar upgraded to two sets.

Northampton
At the beginning of the war 4 US cruisers carried CXAM radar. Three from this class plus Pensacola. As there were five ships in this class in the Pacific on 12/7/41, I have generalized the early war radar by giving this class CXAM in it's original configuration (and not giving it to the Pensacolas). The fifth ship of this class is Houston, which did not have radar, and I will disable it on her.
(191) Add CXAM radar
(1227) No changes (and no second radar set)
(1228) Radar upgraded to two sets.
(1229) Radar upgraded to two sets.
(1230) 40mm reworked for twin mounts. Radar upgraded to two sets.

Portland
(1231) Radar upgraded to two sets.
(1232) Radar upgraded to two sets.
(1233) Device 11 number corrected, Radar upgraded to two sets.

New Orleans
(1234) - (1236) Radar upgraded to two sets.

Brooklyn
(1241) - (1244) Radar Upgraded to two sets.

Helena
(1245) - (1247) Radar upgraded to two sets.

Wichita
(194) Unused, ship refitted past this point before transfer to Pacific.
(1237) Radar upgraded to two sets.
(1238) 5in expanded for detail, Radar upgraded to two sets.

Atlanta
(209) Rearranged 1.1in Quad mounts for detail, added depth charges.
(1251) Rearranged 40mm for detail, added depth charges, radar upgraded to two sets.
(1252) Radar Upgraded to two sets.

Cleveland
ALL: Upgraded radar for two sets.

Baltimore
ALL: Upgraded radar for two sets.

Oakland
(210) Upgraded Radar for two sets.

Alaska
(189) Rearranged 5in/38 Twins for superfiring mounts, upgraded radar for two sets.

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Post #: 198

RE: US Cruiser Changes - 1/31/2005 11:29:49 PM

Tankerace

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Hey Don, since I am doing extensive camo work, can we add in 2 upgrades (or rather one) to the Portlands? From a camo point of view, they were similar to the Northamptons:

10/42 fit receives Ms 21 Navy Blue
4/43 (current final fit) same

In 1944 they underwent overhaul, and emerged with Ms 32 (see splinter camo)
In 1945 both ships were in Ms 22. So, can we alias the 10/42 and 4/43 graphic to Northamptons 10/42 graphic (I used the same, as for WitPs scale they are identical), then create a new upgrade in 1944, no work done per se, just yard time and a new graphic with an Ms32 pattern different than the Northamptons, and then do the same in 1945, so she can finish up in Ms22. This achieves several things:

1) simulates different yard time.
2) allows the player to pick camo. Since the 1944 and 1945 upgrades are the same, if he wants he can have the ship in either Ms22, 21, or 32 camo.

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Post #: 199

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 1/31/2005 11:38:29 PM

CobraAus

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quote:

So, do we want to take a camo approach on all ships, some, none at all, or what?

Go for it.. I've been doing Dons ships he sent me for 2 weeks now all the transports
allied done now doing japanese

Cobra Aus

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Post #: 200

RE: US Cruiser Changes - 1/31/2005 11:51:56 PM

Ron Saueracker

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Have you tried MS 12 on DDs like Simes class yet. Might be a tough one.

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Post #: 201

RE: US Cruiser Changes - 1/31/2005 11:57:57 PM

Tankerace

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Believe it or not, the actual Matrix art had Ms12, but it was so dull it looked grey throughout. Not that tough, I'll do them after I get a few more cruisers.

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Post #: 202

US Cruisers dressed for success - 2/1/2005 12:04:29 AM

Tankerace

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Hehe, moved to Artwork forum.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 1/31/2005 4:14:12 PM >

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Post #: 203

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 2/1/2005 1:10:35 AM

CobraAus

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quote:

I must confess.... I have a strong urge to make a pink submarine, and put Grant, C. as a sub leader....

The opening sceen depicts the submarine SEA TIGER being bombed during an air-raid in the Philippine Islands. The first attack on the Philippine Islands by the Japanese took place on December 8, 1941. Two days later, at 1:00 p.m. on December 10, 1941, 54 Japanese twin-engined bombers and 52 escorting Zero fighters brushed aside the few available U.S. fighter planes and attacked the Submarine Base at Cavite. Two bombs hit and sunk the submarine USS SEALION (SS-195) and damaged the adjacent submarine USS SEADRAGON (SS-194). The blasts killed five sailors, the first fatalities for American submarines in World War II. Heroic salvage efforts were made to salvage SEADRAGON, howere SEALION was a total loss. And, there really was a pink submarine that was caught while being repaired. That's right, SEADRAGRON was actually painted pink and had to sail out of the Philippines before being painted the traditional gray and black. An incredible amount of detail in the film really happened. The evacuation of nurses from Corregidor by U.S. submarines also took place. However, these women where Navy nurses, not Army nurses as depicted in the story.

It should also be noted that three boats were used in the making of the movie: USS BALAO (SS-285), was painted pink and was used for exterior shots in and around Key West, Florida. USS ARCHERFISH (SS-311) wore the standard colors of grey and black, and was used for interior and exterior shots. USS QUEENFISH (SS-393) was used in opening and closing scenes, as well as for at sea shots and was filmed in and around San Diego.

cobra Aus

My atempt at humor

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by CobraAus -- 1/31/2005 11:24:29 PM >

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Post #: 204

RE: US Cruisers dressed for success - 2/1/2005 2:40:49 AM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Just so I know how far to go with this, do you guys want this for the upgrade graphics:

1941: Standard Grey, some PH BBs Grey and White.
1942: Measure 12 Modified (see my South Dakota Graphic) on most, some ships navy blue.
1943: Measure 32 (see Missouri, Essex, and Saratoga graphics) on some, Measure 33 and 22 on others
1944: Measures 32 and 33 predominate, some MS 22. Some ships will stay the same, others will switch schemes.
1945: Measure 22 which is the current navy blue up to height of stern, and grey above that.

Itll take a bit of work, but I think I can do it.

I�d say use the appropriate camouflage for the class at the time of the refit. Not so sure about having upgrades just to switch camo. Also, to be devil�s advocate: Do we want to use extensive disruptive camouflage on these icons. After all, the purpose of the icon is to display the details of the ship and the purpose of the camouflage is to hide the details of the ship.

And, and the risk of heresy, perhaps we might want to put the camouflage on the �shil� version only and leave the �side� version more visible. Just an idea � the �side� being used only for display of the ship and the �shil� for combat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Hey Don, since I am doing extensive camo work, can we add in 2 upgrades (or rather one) to the Portlands? From a camo point of view, they were similar to the Northamptons:

10/42 fit receives Ms 21 Navy Blue
4/43 (current final fit) same

In 1944 they underwent overhaul, and emerged with Ms 32 (see splinter camo)
In 1945 both ships were in Ms 22. So, can we alias the 10/42 and 4/43 graphic to Northamptons 10/42 graphic (I used the same, as for WitPs scale they are identical), then create a new upgrade in 1944, no work done per se, just yard time and a new graphic with an Ms32 pattern different than the Northamptons, and then do the same in 1945, so she can finish up in Ms22. This achieves several things:

1) simulates different yard time.
2) allows the player to pick camo. Since the 1944 and 1945 upgrades are the same, if he wants he can have the ship in either Ms22, 21, or 32 camo.

We can do that (but read above). If we do I�ll find some difference extant at the time of the upgrade so there will be some actual change.

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Post #: 205

RE: US Cruisers dressed for success - 2/1/2005 3:00:12 AM

Bradley7735

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Here's my 2 cents.

I like the non camo designs. I really like most of the early and late war designs. I think Don's idea of having the camo only for the combat animations is an awesome idea. If you click on your ship, the non-camo (pretty) design is very pleasing to the eyes. However, once you see the surface battle open up, those camo ships would be awesome.

That being said, I think Tankerace is doing an awesome job with the icons. Whatever decision you guys decide to make is going to be perfect from my point of view.

bc

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Post #: 206

RE: US Cruisers dressed for success - 2/1/2005 3:03:51 AM

Tankerace

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Doing the shil only version is fine with me. Or, perhaps, we could release both sets, and let plays choose to install Non camo or camo. Either way, I'll do em and you guys use 'em.

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Post #: 207

RE: US Cruisers dressed for success - 2/1/2005 3:31:16 AM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Doing the shil only version is fine with me. Or, perhaps, we could release both sets, and let plays choose to install Non camo or camo. Either way, I'll do em and you guys use 'em.

This is a great idea - with regular and camo versions available everyone can make their own choice. We could please some of the players all the time and all of the players some of the time (my apologies to Mr. Lincoln).

We could even make a camo "load/unload" utility like Andrew Brown's neat little map-load bat file.

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Post #: 208

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 2/1/2005 6:16:54 AM

bstarr

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Don,
I just started on that book you found, �Ships for Victory,� and I may have found something of interest that may help in recreating US merchant ships.

On pg 21 it mentions that by 1942 91.8% of merchant ships would be 20 years old, and on the same page that �most of the dry-cargo vessels were of 10 to 11 knot speed.�

Now, on pages 27-28 it mentions that the C1, C2, & C3 �sorts� were used to classify ships after 1939. I had been under the impression that all ships in the game fell into one of these categories, but apparently using the Cs to classify the December 1941 merchant fleet would be incorrect, at least for about 90% of them. Is there any way to come up with hard data on which ships predated the 1939 reforms? The Cs are well documented, but the preC ships would be considerably slower and maybe even somewhat smaller.
bs

ps. btw, 10% of 12/41 AKs and all AKs built later would be Cs, though.

pps. what's a "Hog Islander"?

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Post #: 209

RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 2/1/2005 6:26:11 AM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bstarr

Don,
I just started on that book you found, �Ships for Victory,� and I may have found something of interest that may help in recreating US merchant ships.

Damn - mine has not arrived yet and I'm beginning to worry that it may be lost in the mail.

quote:

On pg 21 it mentions that by 1942 91.8% of merchant ships would be 20 years old, and on the same page that �most of the dry-cargo vessels were of 10 to 11 knot speed.�

Now, on pages 27-28 it mentions that the C1, C2, & C3 �sorts� were used to classify ships after 1939. I had been under the impression that all ships in the game fell into one of these categories, but apparently using the Cs to classify the December 1941 merchant fleet would be incorrect, at least for about 90% of them. Is there any way to come up with hard data on which ships predated the 1939 reforms? The Cs are well documented, but the preC ships would be considerably slower and maybe even somewhat smaller.
bs

ps. btw, 10% of 12/41 AKs and all AKs built later would be Cs, though.

Yes - there is a book called Merchant Fleets 1939 which gives tabular data on all merchant ships over 2000 tons in existance in 1939. Includes speed but not endurance. I have a copy and Matrix used it heavily in creating the original merchant OOB. They did an excellent job but generalized the ships into a half-dozen classes (like Japan). We will split them out (like Japan).

The US Maritime Commission, which came up with the C1, C2, etc. designations, was the 1930s successor to the old U.S. Shipping Board.

quote:

pps. what's a "Hog Islander"?

A Hog Islander is a World War I Liberty Ship built at the Hog Island shipyard. There were also "Submarine Boat" and "West Coaster" variations built at a shipyard owned by the Submarine Boat Company and to a general design at several west coast yards.

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Post #: 210

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