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Arty wish - 2/1/2005 10:09:18 PM

AnimalAl

Posts: 55
Joined: 2/18/2004
From: Washington DC
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Having been toasted by the Americans while playing Germans in Breakout, I have a request for future patches. What about allowing the artillery to fire indirect fire missions on targets of opportunity? AH Panzer Leader had a very good system for determining the success of indirect fire (I recognize that PL is a tactical and not operational level game but it shows the possibility). I am reading Steven Ambrose's "Band of Brothers" and was struck by a paragraph where a German colonel or general went out on a recon to find his units and assess teh situation. He stumbles upon an arty battery that is overlooking Utah beach, but the crew ran away (not because of any engagement). He noted that given a crew and an arty spotter, he could have caused serious damage.

As Easy Company pushed through the low countries, there was another story about how an SS battalion gave them hell, not due to engagement but rather the expert spotting by an observer that was calling in 88mm fire on their unit. My point being, I find it SO frustrating to have scads of arty battalions behind Caen (for instance) and unable to engage because my forces can see but don't have the strength to engage the enemy. It would be so nice to either direct fire and/or indirect fire with arty without combining with combat forces as an option, understanding that it may not cause as much casualties but may tie down/hamper/hurt the unit under fire.

Then I wouldn't feel so pissed off when that damn recon unit swoops around and kills my arty in the rear, while the crew stands there with their hands in their pockets...

_____________________________

"Military strategy is the diplomacy of violence" (Thomas Schnelling).

Post #: 1

RE: Arty wish - 2/1/2005 11:24:56 PM

Fred98

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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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There are some arty units where this is represented.

In the game it is called interdiction. Some arty unkits have it and some do not.
-

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RE: Arty wish - 2/3/2005 9:03:36 PM

AnimalAl

Posts: 55
Joined: 2/18/2004
From: Washington DC
Status: offline

Yes I understand interdiction, not what I want. I want to call down four battalions of HE on a British division in the clear that I can see two hexes from me without engaging in close combat. It's not unreasonable. I guess I'm a newb as far as listening to the designer's comments as to why they didn't do this, whether it was tactics to only use arty for interdiction and close combat assault or just a conscious decision to keep arty from dominating the battlefield (which it does anyway in real life).

Capt Winter's quote in the book BoB: "I hated artillery." Wasn't because the germans were attacking him.

<Shot, over> <Shot, out>WWWWWMmmmmmmbabooom. <fire mission complete>

_____________________________

"Military strategy is the diplomacy of violence" (Thomas Schnelling).

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Post #: 3

RE: Arty wish - 2/3/2005 11:50:00 PM

Carl Myers

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Joined: 9/16/2003
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AnimalAI

quote:

Yes I understand interdiction, not what I want. I want to call down four battalions of HE on a British division in the clear that I can see two hexes from me without engaging in close combat. It's not unreasonable.

You are talking about uncalled for indirect fire from 4 battalions of artillery on some 15000 men located in a dozen or so square kilometers. Just how much damage do you think you could do the the organization of a division?

(in reply to AnimalAl)

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RE: Arty wish - 2/7/2005 9:29:40 PM

AnimalAl

Posts: 55
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From: Washington DC
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quote:

You are talking about uncalled for indirect fire from 4 battalions of artillery on some 15000 men located in a dozen or so square kilometers. Just how much damage do you think you could do the the organization of a division?

First I don't think that's accurate, I am talking about using a battalion artillery, not four, against a brigade that has been spotted and identified in a hex that while large is finite. They did it in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, today, with spotters that can see the target and can call adjust fire on the target. That's why artillery is the King of Battle, it causes the most casualties - except in this game.

I mean, force on force within a hex, no one questions. Why question what a battalion fire can do to a brigade of infantry that is in the clear? I have seen a battalion fire hit a hilltop. It's massive. If it would not cause a step loss in one unit, I will eat my MREs for dinner tonite.

_____________________________

"Military strategy is the diplomacy of violence" (Thomas Schnelling).

(in reply to Carl Myers)

Post #: 5

RE: Arty wish - 2/7/2005 10:03:52 PM

Carl Myers

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Joined: 9/16/2003
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quote:

They did it in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, today, with spotters that can see the target and can call adjust fire on the target. That's why artillery is the King of Battle, it causes the most casualties - except in this game.

In terms of this game's scale, those spotters were along the hexside of the enemy unit's hex. I take it that you have never actually called for indirect fire, changing impact on the basis of 50 meter increments can not be done at two hexes(6-8 kilometers).

>> Why question what a battalion fire can do to a brigade of infantry that is in the clear? <<

Do not confuse the concept of infantry in clear terrain as infantry moving in the open. Even if the infantry has not taken twelve hours to construct fighting postions with overhead cover, they will have had dug hasty fighting positions that put the body below ground level which would require just about a direct hit to cause a casualty.

If you have a brigade on a 'hilltop', you don't have a hilltop but a mountain.

< Message edited by Carl Myers -- 2/7/2005 3:04:49 PM >

(in reply to AnimalAl)

Post #: 6

RE: Arty wish - 2/8/2005 12:15:45 AM

JSS

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Animal,

Interesting discussion. I've requested this in the past (see below for my concept). My concern is with four regiments stacked in one 2.5km hex... or more to the point the situation where 12 regiments are stacked in 3 consecutive hexes... at that point the argument that they're spread into adjoining hexes really doesn't apply anymore. A satisfactory solution hasn't been developed yet. I've concluded its a matter of scenario design as much as the game engine.

One of the main problems developing this feature (as I understand things) is exactly as Carl has described above. In most situations taking a step (ie. battalion size task force from a regiment) just doesn't make sense for the game engine. Some of the massed Soviet barrages could do step size losses (when the Germans didn't pull back quickly enough)... most accounts of successful American barrages disrupted/destroyed company sized elements.

My suggested approach is to treat a barrage as follows:

1. Attacked hex must be at 100% double dice conditions (ie mass of units closely grouped together).

2. Use CRT for defending hex with default 0 attack strength.

3. Apply artillery, leader, and air strike to get attack odds...

4. Throw 1 die... disregard any A* result and apply D*(R) result to stack.

5. For the spotter issue the combat dialogue could only be opened by a combat unit in a hex next to stack. The combat unit could then be deselected to enter barrage mode (ie. a button could be added to do this specifically).

I think this would be historically accurate as you'd really need a lot of artillery shifts to get decent odds on this... even then you're likely to only get D1(R).

JSS

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RE: Arty wish - 2/8/2005 10:57:02 PM

AnimalAl

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From: Washington DC
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Alright I will let this issue go (grumble grumble). Carl, actually I have called for indirect fire, and if you have direct line of sight to a unit that's 1-2 kms away, you can very clearly see the impact and adjust fire in terms of 500 yards right, 300 yards short, FFE, out. As in the National Training Center for instance. JSS, good discussion, I understand maybe this isn't the right scale for arty to be seen as having an impact - there's always counterbattery fire though... that would be interesting.

_____________________________

"Military strategy is the diplomacy of violence" (Thomas Schnelling).

(in reply to JSS)

Post #: 8

RE: Arty wish - 2/9/2005 4:10:59 AM

Carl Myers

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Joined: 9/16/2003
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quote:

if you have direct line of sight to a unit that's 1-2 kms away, you can very clearly see the impact and adjust fire in terms of 500 yards right, 300 yards short, FFE, out.

Correct, and that puts you in the same hex as the unit upon which you are calling for fire. Looks like FO AnimalAl is traveling two hexes in order to do the call for fire, can you say DIP.

(in reply to AnimalAl)

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RE: Arty wish - 2/10/2005 7:23:52 PM

AnimalAl

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From: Washington DC
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I promised to let this go but...

quote:

Correct, and that puts you in the same hex as the unit upon which you are calling for fire. Looks like FO AnimalAl is traveling two hexes in order to do the call for fire, can you say DIP.

None of your rational analysis changes the fact that I don't have to ATTACK to have supported artillery fire against a unit. Okay let's assume I am sitting right next to an enemy unit. Why can't I call for fire to at least disrupt or neutralize the unit (instead of barrage/destroy) and NOT attack with ground forces. I am thinking at the least, use arty to pin down a unit if not lose steps. Yeah okay maybe MAYBE interdiction does some of that.

I'm done.

_____________________________

"Military strategy is the diplomacy of violence" (Thomas Schnelling).

(in reply to Carl Myers)

Post #: 10

RE: Arty wish - 2/11/2005 3:28:20 PM

philsublime

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Joined: 10/19/2004
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I was thinking about this whole issue as well. In my opinion, art fire on enemy units without an attack, is happening on a company level at max. There are no spotters searching for enemy battalions or brigades in order to lead indirect fire on them. Spotters are (at least today) operating on different levels. Usually a battalion has a couple of spotter units who, independently, advance together with explo teams, in order to put fire on enemy companies or even platoons. In the game, it appears difficult to implement the kind of art fire mentioned first. Also, one should't forget the complexity of directing art fire. It's not just a matter of radioing the coordinates and that's it. It could be of course, but usually art fire is organized with 'fire directing officers' who have to link spotters on the battlefield together with the actual firing units. This is very complex and is usually happening on a battalion, or even a brigade level. I can just tell how it is today, but I can imagine, that it was about the same back then...
So for me, (as a mortar platoon leader and forward observer in real life) artillery fire is represented well, considering the games scale. You can always try to play the game without using art, which is quite impossible...

(in reply to AnimalAl)

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RE: Arty wish - 3/3/2005 11:03:38 PM

The Duke

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Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Austin, TX
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The Russians would often bombard German positions with tens of thousands of artillery pieces, without an attack, just to disrupt organization, delay advances, etc. An excellent example of this was the predawn bombardment prior to Germany's Citadel (Kursk) offensive.

Massive, massive bombardment, well beyond company scale, without an engagement by combat troops.

(in reply to philsublime)

Post #: 12

RE: Arty wish - 3/5/2005 3:13:08 AM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimalAl

Having been toasted by the Americans while playing Germans in Breakout, I have a request for future patches. What about allowing the artillery to fire indirect fire missions on targets of opportunity? AH Panzer Leader had a very good system for determining the success of indirect fire (I recognize that PL is a tactical and not operational level game but it shows the possibility). I am reading Steven Ambrose's "Band of Brothers" and was struck by a paragraph where a German colonel or general went out on a recon to find his units and assess teh situation. He stumbles upon an arty battery that is overlooking Utah beach, but the crew ran away (not because of any engagement). He noted that given a crew and an arty spotter, he could have caused serious damage.

As Easy Company pushed through the low countries, there was another story about how an SS battalion gave them hell, not due to engagement but rather the expert spotting by an observer that was calling in 88mm fire on their unit. My point being, I find it SO frustrating to have scads of arty battalions behind Caen (for instance) and unable to engage because my forces can see but don't have the strength to engage the enemy. It would be so nice to either direct fire and/or indirect fire with arty without combining with combat forces as an option, understanding that it may not cause as much casualties but may tie down/hamper/hurt the unit under fire.

Then I wouldn't feel so pissed off when that damn recon unit swoops around and kills my arty in the rear, while the crew stands there with their hands in their pockets...

This is something I've brought up myself with regards to KP. Ive read many books (a good one is called Guns of War. A memior of a Canadian FO) which states the devastating effect Arty caused on a massive scale. It does strike me as odd that you can't bombard without acutally sending in a ground force.

Still some of the arguments are good. Also I believe it would effect palaybility which maybe is the real reason you can't do it.

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/5/2005 1:15:07 AM >

(in reply to AnimalAl)

Post #: 13