RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege???

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege???

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RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/8/2005 9:09:05 AM

pasternakski

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I agree. I never had any interest in appointing individual ship captains, squadron commanders, infantry unit COs, and the like in the first place. In fact, when you think about it, this runs entirely counter to the idea that this is an operational level simulation.

As in PacWar, I would like to retain control over army, fleet, and other HQs, but the rest? Forget about it.

(in reply to 33Vyper)

Post #: 31

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/8/2005 9:19:41 AM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
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I guess I struck a nerve.....Hopefully 1.5 will fix the leaders (either correct them or neuter them). I'd rather see that than more chrome...

(in reply to treespider)

Post #: 32

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/8/2005 6:46:54 PM

PeteG662

Posts: 1263
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Over a dozen versions of the leader loss bug now and counting!

(in reply to treespider)

Post #: 33

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/8/2005 6:49:45 PM

WhoCares

Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
...
I assign leaders using the "leadership" rating. I also look at their personality (aggressive or cautious)
Between these two items I assign leaders.
If it says "rear area" I don't put him in command of my next assault.
If it says "transport" I don't assign him to my carrier fighters
But mostly I just go by leadership. I mean what do you need? If you are looking for a leader try "leadership"
...

How will you do it from 1.5, when we see the other skills (naval, air, admin,...) as well? Will you put the naval skill of a ship captain above leadership (assuming the rest is the same/irrelevant)?

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 34

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/8/2005 7:00:30 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Over a dozen versions of the leader loss bug now and counting!

I'm no programmer but when my dumplings don't come out properly, I chuck 'em and start over.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to PeteG662)

Post #: 35

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/8/2005 9:45:54 PM

Rob322

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
WTF? A dry campus? Is oral sex illegal too?

If it's a dry campus, it would have to be.

Why even go to school if it's dry?

That's no way to live. Let those so inclined do so but leave the rest of us alone

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 36

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 12:03:36 AM

Onime No Kyo

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I work for school security at my school and I've lost count of how many cases I've heard of of Freshie girls getting pass-out drunk (often with sad consequences) or Freshie guys getting loaded and wrapping their cars around lamp posts. On one hand, its more control than we'd like to see. On the other, if their parents didnt raise them right, it becomes sort of a public responsibility. If it takes something like that to keep a stupid girl who's feeling her oats now that she's away from mom and dad from getting gang raped, I'll gladly take the risk of looking like a control freak.

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(in reply to Rob322)

Post #: 37

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 12:10:07 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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I'd have to agree with you. While I know a bunch of people at my campus that can drink responsibly, I know 20X more who grab a bottle and don't know how to put it down untill they pass out.

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(in reply to Onime No Kyo)

Post #: 38

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 12:32:04 AM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
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From: Dallas
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They still have that 3.2 beer thing up there?

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 39

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 12:52:16 AM

Onime No Kyo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I'd have to agree with you. While I know a bunch of people at my campus that can drink responsibly, I know 20X more who grab a bottle and don't know how to put it down untill they pass out.

Ditto. And I say that its all the parent's fault. Teach you kids good things and be a good example for them and you wont have to worry about them doing things like that.

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(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 40

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 1:27:15 AM

Cap Mandrake

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Pastersnakski;

That leader bug thing was hilarious

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Post #: 41

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 1:46:49 AM

mogami

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 42

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 2:02:32 AM

pasternakski

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C'mon, Mog. I don't come over to your place and piss in your Pilsner Urquell, do I?

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(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 43

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 2:08:49 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

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Post #: 44

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 2:33:43 AM

Stvitus2002

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Now that's interesting. I have not lost a high-level HQ leader.....yet.
I Do have engineer battalions that are now commanded by jap officers, & I recently lost
Admiral Halsey. But Dugout Doug is still in charge of my SOUTHWESTPAC.

Joe D.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 45

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 3:04:56 AM

Joel Billings

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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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I wish I could give you simple leader info as to what they influence. However, they are involved in most of the combat formulas in the game. They are as important as Mogami has said. It would take days to disect the code to get the information out that you want. Unfortunately these formulas are not board game like formulas and are very difficult to present in detail. I have in a few cases looked at code having to do with one issue or another in an attempt to help Gary/Keith/Mike balance the particular item. Usually my head starts spinning as I try to figure out the exact impact of each variable and how best to get a desired effect. And these have been some of the simple ones, and for a non C programmer I'm pretty good with numbers and formulas.

We really aren't hiding the information intentionally because we don't want you to have it. It's just not something we can afford to provide (both because of the programmer time to decode it and the fact that most non-programmers would not understand it). I don't think you would ask a flight simulator programmer to tell you how the formula in the game accounts for increasing the flaps by some increment. That's part of playing the game.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 46

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 3:20:19 AM

von Murrin

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Joel, I don't think most players are interested in having you drill down that far. Most of us have a very vague understanding of basic leader stats. I don't necessarily want to know the given advantage of a three point difference in the air combat rating posted in percentages, I'm more interested in knowing what it affects.

Example: "Air combat ratings affect CAP, strike numbers, and squadron morale." This matters, whereas I could care less about the actual functions.

To use your flap example, if I knew nothing about physics or flight, I would want to hear, "Flaps help you stay in the air at low speeds". The rest I can figure out on my own.

Can we get basic effect descriptions like that or is it still a huge hassle?

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(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 47

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 3:26:58 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
It would take days to disect the code to get the information out that you want.

So how did it get in there?

quote:

I don't think you would ask a flight simulator programmer to tell you how the formula in the game accounts for increasing the flaps by some increment. That's part of playing the game.

That's part of flying the plane. I think you would want to know with some specificity what the effect of extending your flaps 40 percent would be at a particular airspeed, altitude, and pitch.

Look, Joel, I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass here. Really. I never asked for formulae, code-tight calculations, or any of that. I just want to know more specifically than "higher numbers are better" what the effects of leader characteristics are. For example, someone thought to state, "best suited to ..." What is the effect of that? When you put a cruiser driver in charge of a CV task force, do you get better results than putting Halsey in charge of the same task force because the cruiser driver's ratings are 80/86 and Halsey's are only 72/74?

As I said to Russ, I pretty much assign leaders the same intuitive way he does. The problem really arose when the leader bugs came along, and now, I have absolutely no idea what the effect of anything is. I don't even know if it makes a difference that there's a Samurai salad shooter jockey on the bridge of USS Hornet (as happened in a PBEM game where my Allied opponent gave up in disgust over this very matter, calling the game "silly" as he left).

I'm not a frivolous person, and I don't play silly games. I bought UV and WitP because I identified them as serious games for the serious gamer. When things went wrong, I wasn't concerned, because I understand how complex an undertaking this game system was, and I trusted Matrix/2by3 to come up with solutions that would put them back on track.

I am not by nature a dissatisfied customer, but when hard information becomes difficult to get, I tend to wander off. I don't understand how these formulae and calculations can exist in the code by accident and nobody knows how they work. The most troubling part is that it appears the designers don't even know how they work.

When women give birth, they don't get a manual explaining how that nasty little thing is supposed to be handled. When I play a wargame, however, I expect to have some idea of how it works and how I can best interface with it in trying to play and win. If I'm just guessing, I'm thinking it's time to go do something I understand and that challenges me on an intellectual level.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 48

Dear Jimmy; - 2/9/2005 6:19:56 AM

Cap Mandrake

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Post #: 49

RE: Dear Jimmy; - 2/9/2005 6:23:59 AM

Onime No Kyo

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ROFL......Can someone please create an archive of these things. We need to keep them around to remind Martix of what happens when they create a huge fanbase and have it turn cynical on them.

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Post #: 50

RE: Dear Jimmy; - 2/9/2005 6:40:49 AM

Tankerace

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Hmm I think I'll take a crack at an image.

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Post #: 51

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 7:00:49 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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Post #: 52

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 7:08:44 AM

Onime No Kyo

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Whats wrong with that. If this is one of those Brady-pics here's my answer. Flag bridge, USS Essex, 1/14/44 during the invasion of Guam. Pictured (L to R) 1st Lt. Hatasuki(USS Essex CO 80/76), Capt. MacArthur (TF 1004 CO 30/45) and WO 0/0 (CINCPAC, clooose friend of a certain senator who shall remain nameless, behind MacArthur).

What I cant figure out is how you got a hold of my savegame.

_____________________________

"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 53

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 7:10:12 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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Hahahahaha, this is great.

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Post #: 54

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 7:27:57 AM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Over a dozen versions of the leader loss bug now and counting!

I'm no programmer but when my dumplings don't come out properly, I chuck 'em and start over.

We call it "obliterating" the problem. You just sh!tcan the whole block and refactor all the pieces that refer to it to no longer refer to it (if the code was not written under an IDE that allows refactoring a simple compile makes it obvious what was referring to it).

Then start over from scratch. Be curious to see how immersed this "feature" is. I'm guessing this is quite a work of procedural spaghetti code based on the nature of the bugs in the game...

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 55

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 8:09:09 AM

von Murrin

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I'm saving every one of these images. I'll re-post them in a few years for a laugh.

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I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

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Post #: 56

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 8:39:51 AM

pasternakski

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Post #: 57

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 9:36:59 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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< Message edited by Tankerace -- 2/9/2005 1:36:56 AM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 9:59:01 AM

Stvitus2002

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If i knew how to photoshop & attach files in this forum,i would contribute to this thread.
But for now....i'll just lean back & laugh!

Joe D.

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 59

RE: Leader bug and possible sacrilege??? - 2/9/2005 10:08:08 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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Opps

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 60

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