Can anyone explain this?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Can anyone explain this?

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Can anyone explain this? - 2/8/2005 10:02:10 PM

mikemc

Posts: 16
Joined: 12/29/2004
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I have two carrier task forces in the same hex, both set to react and another also set to react a few hexes away. A japanese carrier force walks straight into the trap, but only one of my carrier force reacts and the two task forces end up in adjacent hexes. In the air phase, my aircraft spot the japanese task force and identify enemy carriers, naming Akagi, this happens twice, japanese carriers identify only CA, BB and destroyers. My aircraft are set to naval attack, morale is high, weather is overcast but the TFs are in adjacent hexes. My TF has two carriers, all aircraft are set like this. Result is my aircraft don't launch and are hit by the first wave of japanese aircraft, both carriers are sunk in the second wave. Fighter CAP is launched but no bombers are ever launched. Can anyone explain this, especially since the japanese TF was basically the one surprised?

mike

Post #: 1

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/8/2005 11:36:48 PM

rogueusmc

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From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
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How much CAP are you operating?...If you are running too much CAP, the bombers don't get the escort they need and will fail that check.

_____________________________

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

(in reply to mikemc)

Post #: 2

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/9/2005 1:05:04 AM

mikemc

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Joined: 12/29/2004
Status: offline

I was running 60% CAP 36 fighters per ship available, first time in combat. The fighters got off to provide CAP but no bombers. This was in a PBEM game which is the reason I was a little irritated!
Mike

(in reply to rogueusmc)

Post #: 3

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/9/2005 2:43:42 AM

toraq

Posts: 405
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline

Are you sure that weather (overcast) didn�t allow your air operations? Note that there is a symbol that appears when the weather is bad.
What version are you playing with?

< Message edited by toraq -- 2/9/2005 12:47:16 AM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/9/2005 11:07:47 AM

mikemc

Posts: 16
Joined: 12/29/2004
Status: offline

I am playing version 2.30. There was no weather symbol, I am positive.

Mike

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Post #: 5

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/9/2005 7:40:54 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

There are a number of factors that will affect your battle so it is hard to say what happened to you. Actually, the factors that go into the calculation are quite complex. Your leaders are important, fatigue, morale, spotting level, escort, enemy CAP. All of these go into the die roll that determines the morale check that any air unit takes before flying a mission. That said, it is rare for a high morale carrier force to not fly an attack mission, when in range of enemy carriers. Perhaps, you have one of the very rare instances where the morale check failed. I don't know the odds for this but I have heard of it happening before. It is one of the fine things about the game that the designers have designed in a fate factor. You can have the perfect set up with the perfect force and still get creamed. This happened in real carrier warfare as well. Somebody just screwed up and did the wrong thing. Of course, this does not make anybody happy when it happens to them. I have plenty of nightmare results that I can relate. But if the carrier battles were predictable, then in reality, the game would be totally boring.

One thing I have discovered is that my goal is alwasy to go into battle with the odds in my favor. After that, it is out of my hands. I just have to hope for the best but plan on the worst. Sorry, I can't help more.

I have one rule of thumb that I pretty much stick to and I think most experienced players do the same. I never set my carriers on "react to enemy." They are always set on "do not react". You just give up too much control otherwise.

_____________________________

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Post #: 6

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/9/2005 8:34:23 PM

mikemc

Posts: 16
Joined: 12/29/2004
Status: offline

Hi,
Thanks for your comments, I can understand that unpredictability is important and it does help to make the game more interesting and perhaps more realistic, if everything was perfect there would be no element of mistake so prevalent in warfare.
I too am dubious about the react status, my problem is playing an opponent who in scenario 19 playing japanese does nothing but sit in Rabaul and occasionally send out a task force to launch one air attack before running back under an air shield again. I set the force to react as I anticipated this move, but only one force reacted and then I got this result. Moving to where I anticipated his carrier force would go would have meant being within range of land based aircraft and spotter planes, so the element of surprise would be lost. So I used react as I could see no other way of touching his carriers, or much else for that matter until I gain a supremacy in air power. However a game is played to be enjoyed and it's a little boring to sit turn after turn waiting for reinforcements and doing nothing.

Mike

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 7

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/9/2005 10:06:08 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
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The only thing else that I can think of is if you used up all your op points refueling or moving max distance.

It can be boring playing as Allies waiting on reinforcements but sometimes you just have to do it. Afterall, it's more fun playing like Rommel, but you win by playing like Montgomery.

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Post #: 8

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/9/2005 10:51:55 PM

mikemc

Posts: 16
Joined: 12/29/2004
Status: offline

The aircraft were all absolutely fresh, they hadn't flown an op before so there should really have been no morale problems, the carriers were about four days out of port so no ops points problems etc. I'll probably have to put it down to experience, I suppose my annoyance is with finally getting the drop on a negative player only to come out worse, and not knowing if it is going to happen the same again.

I can take playing like Monty as long as I don't have to grow the moustache and wear the shorts!

Mike

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)

Post #: 9

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/10/2005 12:04:51 AM

CatLord

Posts: 312
Joined: 10/21/2002
From: Lausanne, Switzerland
Status: offline

It's not your carriers who may have run out of fuel, but small ships escorting them. If they run out of fuel, they will refuel on the big ships having the more fuel, i.e. your carriers (and BB), and that will consume both the small ships AND your carriers Ops points, and then, your carriers won't launch any plane on that day...

Cat

PS: Never ever put SC and MSW in an Air Combat TF...

< Message edited by CatLord -- 2/9/2005 10:05:43 PM >

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RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/10/2005 1:30:16 AM

mikemc

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Joined: 12/29/2004
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I checked again, on the day before the lowest endurance of any ship in the TF was 5500, as I said they were a few days out of port so had plenty of fuel. Even if they moved at full speed to cover the something like ten hex distance they ended up in, there should still have been enough fuel even for the smallest ships. The carriers had 8500 and 11500 endurance. It seems from the replies there was no explanation for this other than an error in the game, I just hope it doesn't mean I lose because of it.
Mike

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Post #: 11

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/10/2005 1:38:19 AM

rogueusmc

Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline

Ships use ops point for everthing...no telling how many ops points you used during that movement phase. Search planes, refuelling, CAP, all kinds of things. Let the CAs use their floatplanes for search. Click do not refuel if combat is likely. All kinds of things.

_____________________________

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

(in reply to mikemc)

Post #: 12

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/10/2005 1:40:57 AM

mikemc

Posts: 16
Joined: 12/29/2004
Status: offline

Suppose that could be it, seems the lesson here is don't use react!
Thanks for all your comments and help.
Mike

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Post #: 13

RE: Can anyone explain this? - 2/10/2005 6:45:13 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

Yes, I understand your frustration. I hope you did not lose all of your carriers. But as posted earlier-with scen 19, sometimes waiting is your best course as the Allied players. The Japanese raids of your opponent are a nuisance but if you are careful, they won't win the game for him. In fact, if all things are equal and you have not suffered massive losses, then by sitting in port, he has given you the inititive and you should eventually win. I think the Japanese have to either take a auto victory hex or do some serious damage to the Allies in order to win.

Anyways, the lesson learned is never set to "react" There of course are exceptions to this rule-especially when you are sure that your force is overwhelming, but for the most part stay away from this.

I find that the Allies can even lose the bulk of their carriers and still win, it they are patient and methodical, so don't give up. (Unless you lost them all-conceed and ask for a rematch

)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

There are a number of factors that will affect your battle so it is hard to say what happened to you. Actually, the factors that go into the calculation are quite complex. Your leaders are important, fatigue, morale, spotting level, escort, enemy CAP. All of these go into the die roll that determines the morale check that any air unit takes before flying a mission. That said, it is rare for a high morale carrier force to not fly an attack mission, when in range of enemy carriers. Perhaps, you have one of the very rare instances where the morale check failed. I don't know the odds for this but I have heard of it happening before. It is one of the fine things about the game that the designers have designed in a fate factor. You can have the perfect set up with the perfect force and still get creamed. This happened in real carrier warfare as well. Somebody just screwed up and did the wrong thing. Of course, this does not make anybody happy when it happens to them. I have plenty of nightmare results that I can relate. But if the carrier battles were predictable, then in reality, the game would be totally boring.

One thing I have discovered is that my goal is alwasy to go into battle with the odds in my favor. After that, it is out of my hands. I just have to hope for the best but plan on the worst. Sorry, I can't help more.

I have one rule of thumb that I pretty much stick to and I think most experienced players do the same. I never set my carriers on "react to enemy." They are always set on "do not react". You just give up too much control otherwise.

quote:

There are a number of factors that will affect your battle so it is hard to say what happened to you. Actually, the factors that go into the calculation are quite complex. Your leaders are important, fatigue, morale, spotting level, escort, enemy CAP. All of these go into the die roll that determines the morale check that any air unit takes before flying a mission. That said, it is rare for a high morale carrier force to not fly an attack mission, when in range of enemy carriers. Perhaps, you have one of the very rare instances where the morale check failed. I don't know the odds for this but I have heard of it happening before. It is one of the fine things about the game that the designers have designed in a fate factor. You can have the perfect set up with the perfect force and still get creamed. This happened in real carrier warfare as well. Somebody just screwed up and did the wrong thing. Of course, this does not make anybody happy when it happens to them. I have plenty of nightmare results that I can relate. But if the carrier battles were predictable, then in reality, the game would be totally boring.

One thing I have discovered is that my goal is alwasy to go into battle with the odds in my favor. After that, it is out of my hands. I just have to hope for the best but plan on the worst. Sorry, I can't help more.

I have one rule of thumb that I pretty much stick to and I think most experienced players do the same. I never set my carriers on "react to enemy." They are always set on "do not react". You just give up too much control otherwise.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 14