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A Look? - 2/13/2005 11:02:35 AM

Marines

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http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21586

Hardcore wargamers...take a look.

Post #: 1

Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/13/2005 1:39:36 PM

Adam Parker

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With respect, rather than cross-marketing visitors here to your comments on your forum it would be more beneficial to post your own fresh insights.

As a prospective buyer I'd also appreciate something more than "game over in 30 minutes".

Armchair General I am sure is doing a fine job but this forum piracy is unhelpful.

(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 2

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/13/2005 3:16:43 PM

Hertston

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I tend to agree. That thread adds nothing to what has been said on the FPG boards here, where rather more comment is available than at Warfare HQ (being the official boards, that's hardly surprising). WHQ is no more "hard-core" than any other wargames site.

As for Armchair General itself, its a very good read, but is there anyone here who doesn't know about it? Several recent Matrix release have had ACG previews, for a start.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 2/13/2005 1:17:22 PM >

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 3

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/13/2005 6:26:16 PM

Marc von Martial

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Why only "hardcore wargamers"? I allways thought Armchair General was for everybody

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Post #: 4

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/13/2005 7:00:45 PM

Mike_w

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No, only "cool kids"

(in reply to Marc von Martial)

Post #: 5

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/13/2005 8:02:25 PM

Marc von Martial

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Actually some of the comments or statements in this very thread remind of some hardcore "cool kids" First Person Shooter forums

. You know, those forums for hardcore fraggers only

Honestly, Armchair General has an extremly good potential to attract not only those "hardcore wargamer" guys. I allways thought they call themselves "grognards", or is this simply the modern times kicking in here, hehe.

on a sidenote:
I wonder why Eric didn�t simply write our support with his download problems, most of them are easily handled by clearing the Windows download cache, which is the culprit in 90% of these cases.

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 2/14/2005 1:05:12 AM >

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RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/13/2005 10:06:09 PM

Marines

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I have been following the development of this sim for a long time. That being said, I was expecting a lot more when it came to depth and the immersion. I play Fulda Gap '85 and North German Plain '85 on a regular basis, perhaps I was expecting something along the same lines of those two games. Now, I don't want to appear like a provocateur, too late maybe? However, I was hoping to see a war game that would pull me in and keep me interested, FG has not done that.

I know you guys (devs etc.) are committed to this game and that is my sole reason for hanging on to it. I hope that you guys will continue to work on it and upgrade it in the future.

(in reply to Marc von Martial)

Post #: 7

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/13/2005 11:45:30 PM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marines

... I play Fulda Gap '85 and North German Plain '85 on a regular basis, perhaps I was expecting something along the same lines of those two games. Now, I don't want to appear like a provocateur, too late maybe?...

Marines, unsure if you know but I had the slightest of hands to do with NGP '85 (the Started Manual and the side/bottom screen art etc).

I don't think it's provocative at all to state your perceptions of Flashpoint Germany. In fact, it's for this feedback that I'm visiting here.

I just didn't think your cross to the other forum was appropriate. It would have been more polite imho to have summarized that thread refering to it as "another place" and then have posted some longer thoughts of your own which I'd stil like to see.

Where in your opinion is Flashpoint Germany exactly falling short? What are its strengths? It's obviously a smaller scale to the HPS Modern Campaign series in terms of unit breadth, command control and map size. So I would either expect some more micromanagement which we know FPG's designer didn't want - or at the other extreme, some more abstraction which seems to be the case. Airpower appears to be handled fairly similarly between the HPS and SimCan designs.

I've been playing NGP '85 this weekend and have been stuck on a draw in one of the medium scens as NATO vs AI. I've been using my helo's poorly I'd say.

One difference that I seem to have picked up between the two designs is that whilst in both, Electronic Warfare can detect the presence of HQ's - in FPG, destroying HQ's seems to be of far more importance due to its scale. From feedback on this forum, it seems that a known HQ in FPG quickly becomes a magnet for artillery. In Modern Campaigns I find it much more urgent to locate and destroy the enemy's artillery itself.

Also in Modern Campaigns the AI will deploy its arty-deliverable mines and chemicals. It seems that the patch due soon for FPG will address this issue in that game. Of course, the biggest fix needed for FPG it seems, is having the AI employ its helo assets. No title will be without its quirks but I'd sure expect the enemy to employ its helos against me - and more effectively than I've done this weekend in the other game!

Now I must add the caveat that these are just perceptions of mine based on feedback from this forum. I'm deciding whether to buy this game. So rather than a desire to drawn any conclusions on FPG's suitablity for me just yet, I'd like to hear much more feedback from people actually playing the game. Any new AAR's vs the AI would be appreciated too.

Adam.

(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 8

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/13/2005 11:59:59 PM

TheHellPatrol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
Honestly, Armchair General has an extremly good potential to attract not only those "hardcore wargamer" guys. I allways thought they call themselves "grognards", or is this simply the modern times kicking in here, hehe.

...
Dude #1: "Hey dude, i wanna start this totally awesome wargame website for grognards only!
Dude #2: What's a grognard dude?
Dude #1: Wow man, i dunno, i saw it on the web dude.
Dude #2: I know dude, how 'bout we call it "hardcore" dude? Like the "movie"

Way cool dude.
Dude #1: Hardcore Wargamer...Rock on bro, we rock! Now lets go review a "wargame" dude.
Dude #2: Yeah bro, like a "war" game...righteous!

_____________________________

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(in reply to Marc von Martial)

Post #: 9

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 1:06:56 AM

Mike_w

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I don't know, seems to me FPG is what it is....
Its not going to be at the Command and Staff College...but it is fun

(Soft music plays in the background)
Before FPG, I never really played any TBS strategy games with the exception of Combat Mission. FPG got me hooked on this genre. Recently, I tried a demo of "Raging Tiger" and loved it. Unfortuantely, I only had money for one more game so I purchased "Direct Action". Much more complicated to be sure (and more realistic?) but now I'm hooked and looking for more. FPG allows players like me to play these types of games and "learn" them without being intimidated by the details of a TAC OPS or Point of Attack 2. HAd I not found FPG, I likely never would have discovered how much I like deep turn based strategy.

By far, FPG is one of my favorite games...its just "fun" If you want a hardcore gaming experience, maybe you'll be disappointed, but it is certainly realistic and detailed enough to be challenging and entertaining for many players. Even the most "die hard grognard" will be satisfied by the sound of a neutralizing artillery barrage hitting home on a stack of armor...complete with puffs of smoke!

Although I'm not usually so satisfied because the stack usually belongs to me...

< Message edited by Mike_w -- 2/13/2005 11:08:26 PM >

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)

Post #: 10

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 3:36:21 AM

Marines

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Indeed Adam. However, why my observations from another forum is considered 'cross' and or a form of bashing is beyond me. Critiques of a game, especially if someone is dissatisfied thus far decides to make their opinions known...they come off as rude, ignorant or being involved in a marketing campaign to disuage others from purchasing it. Now that is stupidity and nothing less then a one sided bashing of those who would disagree. If you decide to purchase FG you will not have the same experience as with FG '85 and NGP '85, but then again its a totally different game by design.

So, I would say go ahead a buy it. Form your own opinion.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 11

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 3:48:15 AM

Jarhead0331

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I don't think he posted the link to "cross-market"...I think he was just too lazy to re-type the same crap over again on another forum...

Coming from a Marine, I'm not sure what's worse? Devious "cross-marketing", or laziness...

_____________________________

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(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 12

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 4:09:36 AM

Marines

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jarhead0331

I don't think he posted the link to "cross-market"...I think he was just too lazy to re-type the same crap over again on another forum...

Coming from a Marine, I'm not sure what's worse? Devious "cross-marketing", or laziness...

Semper Fidelis grunt! Crusty 'ol machine gunner.

0311 and now a 0811.

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 13

Let the feedback roll - 2/14/2005 4:24:44 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marines

...Critiques of a game, especially if someone is dissatisfied thus far decides to make their opinions known...they come off as rude, ignorant or being involved in a marketing campaign to disuage others from purchasing it. Now that is stupidity...

Couldn't agree more. I rely on honest feedback to save me money now. I'm far past the years of buying a game because it's "new" or heaven-forbid, a two paragraph magazine "review" tells me its good

So once again, personally I value your genuine thoughts on this game pro or con, it was just the way the forum was hijacked that p'd me off. Too many people try to do this now - cross-post or "hey look at this" threads.

LOL. Jarhead you likely have it right.

(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 14

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 4:26:22 AM

Jarhead0331

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Marines...

On a serious note, I know exactly what you mean about FPG...Ask anyone on these forums, and they will tell you that I raised a big stink about the lack of infantry units...especially the absence of USMC units in the OOB...

But I still purchased the game and there is a lot to like...I even met up with some other service members who feel my pain and played some nice PBEM games...its been fun...if you can shell out the cash, buy it...then look me up and let me kick your Artillery lovin' ass in a PBEM game...

Semper Fi

< Message edited by Jarhead0331 -- 2/14/2005 2:27:32 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 15

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 4:31:21 AM

Black Cat

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Making Value Judgements by comparing FG to the two large HPS Operational Level Games just doesn`t seem reasonable to me.

I don`t know why, it just doesn`t, maybe someone smarter then me knows......

(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 16

RE: Let the feedback roll - 2/14/2005 4:50:12 AM

Marines

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marines

...Critiques of a game, especially if someone is dissatisfied thus far decides to make their opinions known...they come off as rude, ignorant or being involved in a marketing campaign to disuage others from purchasing it. Now that is stupidity...

Couldn't agree more. I rely on honest feedback to save me money now. I'm far past the years of buying a game because it's "new" or heaven-forbid, a two paragraph magazine "review" tells me its good

So once again, personally I value your genuine thoughts on this game pro or con, it was just the way the forum was hijacked that p'd me off. Too many people try to do this now - cross-post or "hey look at this" threads.

LOL. Jarhead you likely have it right.

Agreed, I feel that far too many will jump on the 'band-wagon' in an attempt to villify those of us who are not a part of the whole. It's obvious that such a stance is ridiculous, beyond any type of normal discussion when it concerns the game. Those of you who did jump at the opportunity to attack me should be ashamed. Your arguments are thus null and void.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 17

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 4:53:09 AM

Marines

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jarhead0331

Marines...

On a serious note, I know exactly what you mean about FPG...Ask anyone on these forums, and they will tell you that I raised a big stink about the lack of infantry units...especially the absence of USMC units in the OOB...

But I still purchased the game and there is a lot to like...I even met up with some other service members who feel my pain and played some nice PBEM games...its been fun...if you can shell out the cash, buy it...then look me up and let me kick your Artillery lovin' ass in a PBEM game...

Semper Fi

I was highly angered that dismounted infantry does not play a role as well. However, I bought it as well even after seeing such remarks/reviews.

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 18

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 4:57:18 AM

Marines

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Making Value Judgements by comparing FG to the two large HPS Operational Level Games just doesn`t seem reasonable to me.

I don`t know why, it just doesn`t, maybe someone smarter then me knows......

What? Perhaps you should go and read what I posted before making such comments.

quote:

If you decide to purchase FG you will not have the same experience as with FG '85 and NGP '85, but then again its a totally different game by design.

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 19

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 5:27:57 AM

Black Cat

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You also said :

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marines

I have been following the development of this sim for a long time. That being said, I was expecting a lot more when it came to depth and the immersion. I play Fulda Gap '85 and North German Plain '85 on a regular basis, perhaps I was expecting something along the same lines of those two games. etc, etc.

Since you brought those 2 Games up I assumed you wanted folks to make a comparison. But you know, it`s no big deal, since in some ways I share your disappointments with FG, and it`s not my intention to start an argument over it.

I, like Adam, would be sincerely interested in what you see as the good points in FG, and what needs to be improved.

< Message edited by Black Cat -- 2/14/2005 3:35:56 AM >

(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 20

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 6:07:37 AM

Marines

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

You also said :

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marines

I have been following the development of this sim for a long time. That being said, I was expecting a lot more when it came to depth and the immersion. I play Fulda Gap '85 and North German Plain '85 on a regular basis, perhaps I was expecting something along the same lines of those two games. etc, etc.

Since you brought those 2 Games up I assumed you wanted folks to make a comparison. But you know, it`s no big deal, since in some ways I share your disappointments with FG, and it`s not my intention to start an argument over it.

I, like Adam, would be sincerely interested in what you see as the good points in FG, and what needs to be improved.

:sigh:

For Christs sakes man...do I really need to go over this again? If you refer to my previous comments, I stated that no comparison can be made to FG and NGP '85. They are totally different games by design.

Flashpoint Germany: It is by far the greatest wargame to look at, the maps and units are great, the graphical representation as a whole is beautiful, the AI all be it flawed is decent. However, it is easily seen by all that certain aspects such as dismounted infantry are non-existent, artillery plays less of a role then it would normally be. Etcetera, etcetera... I just wan't absorbed into this sim.

Look...anyone can find flaws with a game, it just seems these are more prevalent then most. Again, I wish the best to you and yours and hope that content will be added as time progresses.

< Message edited by Marines -- 2/14/2005 4:09:14 AM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 10:39:17 AM

iberian

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I bought both the FG '85 and NGP '85, and played them a few times, but I also bought Flashpoint Germany as soon as it went on market. As all of you say, these games are totally different, and have their strength and weakness. They also share some common problems.

I consider myself a "grognard", whatever that implies, and I'm the kind of wargamer that goes nuts when PzKpfw III Ausf.J of the early series is portrayed with an L/60 instead of a KwK 38 L/42... you get the idea. Still, I believe that most of the wargamers are "grognards", specially the ones that go through the trouble of buying products that are marketed online, and not readily available in department stores. That's why I find somewhat strange that wargame designers take steps to make the wargame "more fun", by modelling warfare in an unrealistic or simplified manner. (It's not like you are attracting 15 year old Quake gamers to Flashpoint Germany by portraying certain aspects unreallistically, because is deemed to be more fun)

As such, I don't find that Flashpoint Germany is less detailed than the above mentioned operational wargames, specially taking into account that we are dealing with Version 1.0 of the engine. Let's see where this engine ends up in a few years, or after a few patches.

My biggest gripe with FPG is the way they modelled helicopters operations, an aspect of the game that I find lacking and somewhat unrealistic, as I explained in other threads. The fact is that helo operations are somewhat artificial/simplified in FG '85 and NGP '85 too, and as such, they are also prone to "gamey" tactics. I've yet to see a wargame where modern aspects of warfare, such helo operations or electronic warfare, aren't treated in a problematic way.

On the dismounted infantry affair, I share your pain, but I don't find it too problematic. You already have mechanized infantry, that dismounts when they are given "Hold" orders. It's a wargame of mechanized warfare, and foot infantry would be interesting, but would add little to it (but if you ask me, I prefer to have them than not). Sorry, but I find helicopters that have infinite loiter time, that can refuel and rearm anywhere, anytime, a more urgent problem.

But overall, I believe that Flashpoint Germany is a good wargame, and I recommed it to any wargamer that misses the feel of the NATO/WP boardgames of the '80s.

< Message edited by iberian -- 2/14/2005 8:41:43 AM >

(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 22

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 2:38:17 PM

Jarhead0331

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iberian...

A couple points, if you will...I consider myself somewhat of a "grognard" as well. I will only purchase a wargame if it is complex, in-depth, realistically modelled, etc. etc. However, it still needs to be"playable" and fun. I can think of a perfect example. I have the Marine Corps training version of Close Combat. It models modern infantry/armor combat on the tactical level very realistically. Guess what? Its not fun. Which means, I don't play it anymore...modern urban warfare is so lethal, that in the game, as in life, the action is usually over in just longer than a minute. RPGs shred your squads and machine gun fire agaisnt advancing infantry is devastating. He who fires first at the most exposed will win...everytime...there is nothing fun about watching your squads disintegrate...at the same time, there is nothing fun about having to make your men crawl across the map and take "hours" to properly conceal and deploy your men to avoid the above mentioned massacre...My point is, a game should be modelled realisitcally, to a point...

As far as dismounted infantry and helos...I really disagree with you here...When I bought this game, I wasn't under the impression that it was a game of mech. warfare...I was under the impression that it was a game of WWIII. Undeniably, dismounted infantry units would have played a huge role in NATO v. WP confrontation. Would there be helos? Sure...but helos are at least modelled in FPG. Infantry are nowhere in sight and this reduces the complexity and strategic options available greatly...I say again...how can you present a REALISTIC sim of WWIII and leave out infantry...it boggles the mind...and don't say, "infantry is modelled, they dismount when mech units halt..." That does nothing for me...remember...I like options, complexity and control...infantry is not something that should be arbitrarily gifted to the AI...

_____________________________

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(in reply to iberian)

Post #: 23

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 3:20:46 PM

iberian

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Jarhead,

By reading the description you gave about the USMC training version of Close Combat, I understand it must be and incredibly realistic sim of urban warfare. It really sounds like lots of fun, I wish it was available in the market. I would sink my Euros there without a double thought.

As far as taking hours to crawl a squad through covered terrain, I see no problem. When there's little spare time, the problem can be avoided with a save option while in game or with an accelerated time option. Weapons lethality I expect to be well modelled. A 7'62 NATO MG-3 should be able to shred a squad cought in the open. I wouldn't find any fun in finding the contrary.

To make a comparison, in the IL-2 community, there's LOTS of people who enjoy flying coop missions, spanning hundred of Km's of flight through open space tundra or the Pacific ocean. With no on-game map charts. Just navigating through a map and a clock, dead reckoning. And just to have their airplane shotdown in a few seconds after fyling during 2 hours. Not to mention the Flight Simulator community, capable of operating highly complex add-on models of Boeing 737's, following real life procedures, approach plated, SID/STAR charts, flying in real time during several hours. One would expect wargame grognards to be at least as "grognard" as this Flight Sim guys are...

PS. (Edited the Post) : As far as the foot infantry goes, I don't see any problem in having SimCan implenting it, as far as the modelled infantry operates in an realistic manner, and no some kind of "fun" portrayal of it.

< Message edited by iberian -- 2/14/2005 1:25:12 PM >

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 24

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 3:39:21 PM

Marines

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Whoa! I thought that Matrix bought the license and SimCan (defunct?) had no role in the affair?

(in reply to iberian)

Post #: 25

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 3:48:46 PM

iberian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marines

Whoa! I thought that Matrix bought the license and SimCan (defunct?) had no role in the affair?

No idea about the specifics, I only know the developer is supposed to be "Simulations Canada", as read in the official game page and the splash screen...

(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 26

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 3:55:37 PM

Marines

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I know that SimCan made what FG what it really is. Flashpoint Germany is based upon two of their games, Main Battle Tank: North Germany and Main Battle Tank: Central Germany. If this is the case, and SimCan had a hand in this game I withdraw any previous opposition I had to it.

(in reply to iberian)

Post #: 27

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 5:17:04 PM

Erik Rutins

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Marines,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marines
I know that SimCan made what FG what it really is. Flashpoint Germany is based upon two of their games, Main Battle Tank: North Germany and Main Battle Tank: Central Germany. If this is the case, and SimCan had a hand in this game I withdraw any previous opposition I had to it.

I'm trying to understand this - per your comment, if FPG is mainly a Matrix project you are opposed to it, if SimCan is involved, you are not opposed to it? What did we do to you?

FYI, SimCan is involved in a licensor/advisory role and Rob Crandall worked with SimCan back in the day, so there is some continuous history involved here. The SimCan designs are indeed the strong basis and foundation for this title, as intended. Their original games were great and well worth a re-make, as many customers have commented.
Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 28

RE: Cross-marketing unappreciated - 2/14/2005 5:40:26 PM

Marines

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Not at all Erik, I love Matrix and the sims you guys produce. I have a great deal of respect for SimCan and their previous work in genre, hell, I still play Red Sky At Morning and that game is over 11 years old. I'm just not satisified with Flashpoint Germany thus far, however, I know that you are committed to it and thats why I'm holding onto the game. Many of my questions and concerns have already been addressed.

Thanks for the feedback...I appreciate it.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 29

RE: A Look? - 2/14/2005 5:45:08 PM

Real and Simulated Wars

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Hello,
tinjaw wrote in that thread:

quote:

2) The main flaw in the AI was due to a simple bug where a number in a calculation was typoed in a last minute build and will be fixed in 1.01 that is due any day now.

Can anybody expand on this?

(in reply to Marines)

Post #: 30