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[OT] Charles Darwin - 2/14/2005 11:46:00 PM   
adsoul


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The most important Italian daily newspapers today reports that several schools in Texas, Ohio, Missouri, Wisconsin, South Carolina, and Mississippi are under heavy ressure from parents who want Evolutionsm out of schools, pretending that only creationism must be teached. Is this correct or total invented?

< Message edited by adso -- 2/14/2005 9:55:39 PM >


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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/14/2005 11:50:38 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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Can only speak for some areas of Texas. I'd put that in the bs category. I'm sure there are some parents who don't want evolution taught. There's more pressure to teach 'intelligent design', the back door method or wedge in the door of getting evolution out of schools. I can't see it ever happening.

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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/14/2005 11:53:08 PM   
Tom Hunter


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An I thought you were writing about the base in Australia.

But yes some people don't believe in the theory of evolution and (from thier point of view not mine) if evolution is wrong then it should not be taught in schools.

Personally I think the world is held up by 4 elephants riding on the back of a gaint turtle but I am having no luck getting that into the local textbooks.


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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/14/2005 11:54:29 PM   
bilbow


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No, not totally invented, but blown way way out of proportion. I would imagine your newspaper took the tone of "Look at what the crazy Americans are up to now?"

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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/14/2005 11:57:00 PM   
adsoul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

An I thought you were writing about the base in Australia.

But yes some people don't believe in the theory of evolution and (from thier point of view not mine) if evolution is wrong then it should not be taught in schools.

Personally I think the world is held up by 4 elephants riding on the back of a gaint turtle but I am having no luck getting that into the local textbooks.




Yeah, changed the topic . Thanks for your answer but you're wrong. Without Evolution no elephant or turtles would even exist

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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/14/2005 11:57:13 PM   
Feinder


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I think the story is that, there is pressure to have a sticker in the front of the text-books that essentially says, "Evolution is a -theory- and cannot be be fully substantiated..." Blah, blah, blah.

My wife and I will raise our son by exhibiting our own faith. He will learn it from our example, not because there was a legal battle over a stupid sticker in a text book. And while we both would be considered to have conservative Christian values, I don't have a problem with evolution. Again, there are more important things to worry about (like my cholesterol).

It's religi-natzis like that, that give everyone a bad name.

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 2/14/2005 4:59:14 PM >


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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/14/2005 11:57:23 PM   
ChezDaJez


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There has always been a contingent in the US that wants the teaching of evolution tossed out of schools and there is an equal number that don't want anything that even hints at religion being taught.

I put these people into the same category as those that want to ban books from school and public libraries such as Huckleberry Finn and the like.

As far as I'm concerned, teach 'em both ways and let the students decide which side of the debate they fall on. To limit the teachings to just one thought or theory isn't what school should be about. It should be about learning new ideas.

Just MHO.

Chez

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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/14/2005 11:57:34 PM   
DrewMatrix


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And here I thought this thread would be about the port city in Northern Australia . . .

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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/15/2005 12:01:16 AM   
adsoul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bilbow

No, not totally invented, but blown way way out of proportion. I would imagine your newspaper took the tone of "Look at what the crazy Americans are up to now?"


Yep, you're right the article tone is that one. But IMHO is an excellent INDEPENDENT newspaper and I'm pretty sure tomorrow I'll read an article sending the right opposite message. Basically it's a liberal newspaper hosting opinions coming from everywhere, right and left.

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 12:39:57 AM   
Zeta16


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Why is this topic on this forum, move it to Mad Cow's or something.

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 12:49:59 AM   
adsoul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

Why is this topic on this forum, move it to Mad Cow's or something.


I apologize if I have incensed somebody. I've posted this topid on this forum because I'm interested in opinions of american people. I'm pretty sure that the subject will raise discussion on Italian forums and I want came up saying "hey, just ask the people that live there, don't tell what you think". Unfortunately for you, I have a great opinion of you guys , so I've posted here. If this is a problem, I won't complain when and wether the topic will be removed.

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 12:51:19 AM   
KPAX


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Poor assumption that the Creation Theory and the Evolution Theory can not go hand in hand.

At the extremes they do not, but that is it, the extreme.

They can and do co-exist......................

< Message edited by KPAX -- 2/14/2005 10:52:08 PM >


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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/15/2005 1:12:21 AM   
DeepSix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

My wife and I will raise our son by exhibiting our own faith. He will learn it from our example, not because there was a legal battle over a stupid sticker in a text book. And while we both would be considered to have conservative Christian values, I don't have a problem with evolution. Again, there are more important things to worry about (like my cholesterol).

It's religi-natzis like that, that give everyone a bad name.

-F-


Yup. I don't see why faith and science can't agree, but the extremists on both sides quickly lose their common sense when the issue comes up. Some scientists insist there is no God, and likewise a vocal minority of Christians will only allow the Almighty seven 24 hour periods in which to whip up a universe. Both sides are severely handicapped by opinions that are lacking, I think.

That's my humble opinion as a native of backwater North Carolina and current resident of backwater South Carolina.

< Message edited by DeepSix -- 2/14/2005 6:14:46 PM >


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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/15/2005 1:33:18 AM   
freeboy

 

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quote:

It's religi-natzis like that, that give everyone a bad name.


I think as a thinking former humanist that part of the problem is the Absolutelness, the smugness the self rightouseneess of those whio insist evolution is a factual mea culpa... many scientist, who are not Christian thestic thinkers like myself.. see little evidence...
First you have to have enough faith for say mitocondrial abstraction and divergence along with the progenys reproducing along a different line etc.. I propose there is too much nazi-like behavior all around my friends...
I Hope sincerely that poeple actual look at the facts of what we as an "EDUCATED" society believe... and evolution is outr holy grial.... There are many good books for those interested in each side perspective... and I agree with Zeta16.. why do we have this talk here.. ooh I know, witp is an evolutionary game lol

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 3:45:21 AM   
fbastos


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quote:

pretty sure that the subject will raise discussion on Italian forums and I want came up saying "hey, just ask the people that live there, don't tell what you think". Unfortunately for you, I have a great opinion of you guys , so I've posted here.


Likewise you, I have a great opinion of American people; unlike you, I live in their midst, so I can tell you, this thing about evolution is completely overblown by the media. The newspapers just love to push people's buttons and create crisis out of nothing.

It's like the flu shots shortage; the effects of the shortage were, if so much, 1/5,000th of the effects of speeding and 1/100,000th of obesity, but the flu shots made a better story, so they just bombard everybody with the nonsensical health crisis caused by flu shots shortage.

Oh, and none of that compare to Michael Jackson's trial, of course.

In summary: don't believe the media. Trust no one.

F.

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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/15/2005 3:54:58 AM   
byron13


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I think the story is that, there is pressure to have a sticker in the front of the text-books that essentially says, "Evolution is a -theory- and cannot be be fully substantiated..." Blah, blah, blah.



I think this is the closest explanation of the article you've read. From the responses, you can see it is a hot button issue.

From what I've seen, the issue for what I will call the "religious right" is that creationism should get equal time with evolution. Both are theories of how things got to be the way they are and should be taught side by side. I guess that would be the ideal for the religious right. They may have backed off some and would be willing to accept a disclaimer that, like Feinder suggests, while evolution is taught in this book, it is only a theory. Several years ago, school boards in Ohio were under pressure to add "intelligent design" theories to the scientific curriculum, which is just code for divine creation.

However, I know that some schoolboards have become so adamant on these issues that they are holding some book publishers hostage. Book publishers are now changing the wording of some of their "science" books to meet their wishes. In 2002, some 2,000 people here in Cobb County petitioned the school board to have Feinder's sticker added to biology books, and the school board voted to change policy to allow discussion of "disputed" theories, i.e., creationism in the class (even though the Supreme Court forbade this in 1987).

Whether you're looking at old news or not, the issue is there, and it is a hot one.

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RE: [OT] Darwin - 2/15/2005 4:31:08 AM   
Rob322

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: byron13

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I think the story is that, there is pressure to have a sticker in the front of the text-books that essentially says, "Evolution is a -theory- and cannot be be fully substantiated..." Blah, blah, blah.



I think this is the closest explanation of the article you've read. From the responses, you can see it is a hot button issue.

From what I've seen, the issue for what I will call the "religious right" is that creationism should get equal time with evolution. Both are theories of how things got to be the way they are and should be taught side by side. I guess that would be the ideal for the religious right. They may have backed off some and would be willing to accept a disclaimer that, like Feinder suggests, while evolution is taught in this book, it is only a theory. Several years ago, school boards in Ohio were under pressure to add "intelligent design" theories to the scientific curriculum, which is just code for divine creation.

However, I know that some schoolboards have become so adamant on these issues that they are holding some book publishers hostage. Book publishers are now changing the wording of some of their "science" books to meet their wishes. In 2002, some 2,000 people here in Cobb County petitioned the school board to have Feinder's sticker added to biology books, and the school board voted to change policy to allow discussion of "disputed" theories, i.e., creationism in the class (even though the Supreme Court forbade this in 1987).

Whether you're looking at old news or not, the issue is there, and it is a hot one.


Meanwhile as we stew and shout and jump up and down and rant and point fingers the continents below us slowly grind along as they have for billions of years and life continues it's slow process of accumulation, diversification, and adaptation. And perhaps there's a deity up there peering down here at all of us and wonder what the hell is all the fuss.

Besides, isn't this a WW2 forum?

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 4:54:25 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adso

The most important Italian daily newspapers today reports that several schools in Texas, Ohio, Missouri, Wisconsin, South Carolina, and Mississippi are under heavy ressure from parents who want Evolutionsm out of schools, pretending that only creationism must be teached. Is this correct or total invented?


This particular "Proof that Darwin was Right" comes up in the American "Bible Belt" every
time you turn around......Once in a while, one of the less evolved monkeys actually gets
elected to a School Board by his peers and this nonsense pushes it's way to the front
burner until something more important (like the County Fair Taffy Pull Results) push it
back again.....One of the annoyances of Democracy is that Freedom of Speech comes
with no limits on the intellegence of the speaker......You might get Einstien-----but it's
more likely to the the "Right Reverend Bill Beenie" and his latest scheme to scam the
religeous and gullible out of a few bucks.....As long as being stupid is a right, a small
segment of the American Public will rejoice and revel in it.....And give Italian News-
Papers something to write about on slow days.

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 7:15:20 AM   
dpstafford


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

Why is this topic on this forum, move it to Mad Cow's or something.

It is a sad commentary on the state of our country that a question about Darwin and evolution is considered by some a discussion about politics rather than science. With GOP bible-thumpers attempting to redefine what is science, the end of empire cannot be far off.

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 8:54:29 AM   
freeboy

 

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quote:

This particular "Proof that Darwin was Right" comes up in the American "Bible Belt" every
time you turn around......Once in a while, one of the less evolved monkeys actually gets
elected to a School Board by his peers and this nonsense pushes it's way to the front
burner until something more important (like the County Fair Taffy Pull Results) push it
back again.....One of the annoyances of Democracy is that Freedom of Speech comes
with no limits on the intellegence of the speaker......You might get Einstien-----but it's
more likely to the the "Right Reverend Bill Beenie" and his latest scheme to scam the
religeous and gullible out of a few bucks.....As long as being stupid is a right, a small
segment of the American Public will rejoice and revel in it.....And give Italian News-
Papers something to write about on slow days.


quote:

It is a sad commentary on the state of our country that a question about Darwin and evolution is considered by some a discussion about politics rather than science. With GOP bible-thumpers attempting to redefine what is science, the end of empire cannot be far off


Whille I will not defend the excessively unusual and strange within the religeous community in America, the bigotry and hatred too often seen... the two qoutes above seam to make my point that one cannot have an intellectual discussion about the earth being flat without the powers that be wanting them, and there opinion silenced... If evolution is so absolutely factual, why is having its tenents questioned such an ordeal. I find it interesting that this always comes back to creationism.. why? I wish I could getthe names, but two non christian Nobel Scientists, said regarding evolution, "it would be like a fully funtioning 747 being created by an infinant number of tordadoes through an infanate number of junkyards" Evolution has a PREMISS, and takes a fiath LEAP from the premiss to substantiate, mix with the majic wand of a Billion years....


I would like one answer , simple, but at Harvard Gould could not answer me, can you? How does the cellular mitoses in an individual animal change to add another chromesome and have both the former and latter continue...
One might argue for amall changes over a large amount of time, but when you look closely, no changes are ever seen other than differentiation within a Geanis, sp?.. IE the color or shape/size of the dogs change, but they do not grow wings... the one which did, through a birth "defect" is always sterile... Remember we are talking about all life coming from one cell? Is that even remotely something that when you step back sounds logical? Or are you so indoctrinated that what you believe HAS to be right? I do not ask anyone to agree, simply ? their own beliefs.. I am willing to do this too.. are U?

< Message edited by freeboy -- 2/15/2005 2:57:14 PM >

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 9:09:29 AM   
dpstafford


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It isn't about "beliefs". It's about the "scientific method".

Or, if you prefer, it's about belief in the scientific method.

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 9:25:14 AM   
von Murrin


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Well, Darwinism isn't precisely scientific either.

Personally, I think you get this kind of "debate" when reason and logic are no longer considered worth teaching in schools.

So, on second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place...

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 9:36:36 AM   
dpstafford


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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin
Well, Darwinism isn't precisely scientific either.

Yes it is! I am always really surprised that people don't know that.

More precisely: Evolution is fact. That the mechanism of evolution is Darwin's theory of natural selection is more precisely the best most widely accepted theory (because of scientific evidence - fossil record) that exists.

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 10:08:57 AM   
von Murrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin
Well, Darwinism isn't precisely scientific either.

Yes it is! I am always really surprised that people don't know that.

More precisely: Evolution is fact. That the mechanism of evolution is Darwin's theory of natural selection is more precisely the best most widely accepted theory (because of scientific evidence - fossil record) that exists.


You misunderstand.

Darwinism is primarily unprovable. We cannot directly observe it. We have scant physical proof. We cannot test it, with the exception of minute divergences within species. It is an astoundingly interesting and compelling, though ultimately unprovable, theory of origin. We do not and likely never will have the proper span of years to study such a thing to indisputable conclusiveness. Note the same can be said for creationism.

This is why I blame the education system. I had the displeasure of being able to attend two high schools, one private and Christian, the other state-funded and secular, and both had the audacity to teach either creationism or evolution as established fact. Neither position is logical or justifiable by reason, and neither is pragmatic. Both can be quite politic for the average tool, however.

What would be useful is open discussion of the merits of each position, particularly as to the means by which science does not invalidate either theory. I think it would be enlightening to see students learn and appreciate the burden of proof placed upon scientific findings as well as assist them in gaining an understanding of why accepted and proven theories are both accepted and proven. (Repeated, observable, and demonstrative testing.)

Ultimately it will not matter, as the truth of our origin is "We don't know.", and our own impending mastery of life through science could very well render such inquiries pointless. However, the use of unproveable theories to teach the fundamentals of science is invaluable and another thing entirely.

More clearly explained this time?

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 11:12:55 AM   
dpstafford


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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin
More clearly explained this time?

Not really. As far as I am concerned, Darwinism is established fact. Or close enough to it that I consider it blasphemy against science and the scientific method when creationism is held up as an alternative view. Or is even remotely thought of as science (as in "creation science"). The two theories, as science, are not remotely equal.

Was the "private Christian" school you went to Catholic? I ask because at least in Ohio, Catholic schools teach Darwinian evolution as scientific fact. Or so my Catholic friends tell me.

< Message edited by dpstafford -- 2/15/2005 4:18:02 AM >

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 2:11:25 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin
More clearly explained this time?

Not really. As far as I am concerned, Darwinism is established fact. Or close enough to it that I consider it blasphemy against science and the scientific method when creationism is held up as an alternative view. Or is even remotely thought of as science (as in "creation science"). The two theories, as science, are not remotely equal.

Was the "private Christian" school you went to Catholic? I ask because at least in Ohio, Catholic schools teach Darwinian evolution as scientific fact. Or so my Catholic friends tell me.


Interesting: I think you will find that Darwin is no more established fact than Newton was, or Einsteim. It is a model of reality that currently fits the evidence, and has yet to be improved, or have its limitations found. (I don't know whether you meant to be a scientic Zealot?).

Creationism has several interesting mental hoops you have to jump through to get to the same level of internal consistancy. (But I have seen it done).

The thing that always interests me about all powerful, and knowing creators is how much help they need from humans!

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 2:30:41 PM   
eMonticello


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adso

The most important Italian daily newspapers today reports that several schools in Texas, Ohio, Missouri, Wisconsin, South Carolina, and Mississippi are under heavy pressure from parents who want Evolutionism out of schools, pretending that only creationism must be teached. Is this correct or total invented?


Yes, with the re-election of President Bush, many folks believe they have a golden opportunity to institute their religious beliefs in the classroom. Below are a few sites that provide some history of folks attempting to eliminate evolution from the classroom as well as a site for high school teachers to inform and address these issues:

This site discusses the most famous of the court cases:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/scopes.htm

This site highlights the most recent court cases:

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/5400_legal_background_2_15_2001.asp

This site provides high school teachers information on evolution:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 4:34:42 PM   
Twotribes


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Come to Madcows. we "discuss" this stuff with out being off topic. There is a link on this site to it.

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RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 4:53:27 PM   
Feinder


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Well stated von Murin.

That's exactly right. Neither case can be proven by conventional methods (like we can prove that water boils at 100-deg C).

Ultimately, you had to be there. Since none of us were there, there's no way to prove it. Coupled with the fact that, in the case of evolution, it takes hundreds of thousands of years, the span and subtlety of changes are largely beyond our ability to measure.

A good example however, is that of the interaction of bacteria and penicillin. Given a group of bacteria that has never been exposed to penicillin, and then placed in dish with it. Most of the bacterial colony will die. However, some will survive, and become resistent. The next generation of that same bacteria, if placed in a dish with penicillin, will have a higher percentage surviving.

This is very reason that we have some very powerful/resistant strains of viruses, because of the over-prescription of anti-biotics in the 70s and 80s (when in fact, anti-biotics can do very little to combat a virus, which is different than bacteria).

So what you attempt to do is to study something with a shorter span of gereations (because you can create many repetitions over time), and then expand what you learned to cover a wider range of potential observations.

The method works quite well, except for the fact that, the wider you expand your expections, the more incorrect they become.

We -know- that species evolve. That is a fact. Bacteria become more resistant. Frogs change sex, when there aren't enough of one gender in the pond. Humans are, on average, 3" taller than they were even 100 years ago (altho I'm not sure what good that's doing us).

However, when you say, "How old is the Earth, according to evolution?" You're talking about extrapolating things over time, which happens to be (by your evolution's expectation), about 1.6 billion years old. That's LONG time, which obviously would create a major margin of error because again, the farther away you move from your measurable sample, the greater margin of error.

Or if you follow the theory all the way, "How old is EVERYTHING?!". Now you're talking an estimated 8 - 12 billion years. Now that's a huge margin of error.

So, -that- is why Evolution is indeed a THEORY. It's good theory. But it cannot be proven by any measurable source, because again, all that one can really prove is that evolution happens, but not that it was the originator of life.

Of course, you can't prove it WRONG either, because once again, there's no way tho accurately measure what was going on a particular instant billions of years ago.

===

I dunno, I think I was pretty objective about the whole thing.

I can also do a similar write-up on Creationism.

-F-

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(in reply to von Murrin)
Post #: 29
RE: [OT] Charles Darwin - 2/15/2005 5:10:14 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
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We -know- that species evolve. That is a fact
quote:

We -know- that species evolve. That is a fact


You are miss-using the word evolving, You sound like, not trying to put wordsd in your mouth.. please correct me if I am wrong.. that species change over time, differeintiate.

I think the majic wand is the time issue, just ad time and then the RELIGIOUS belief in evolution comes out ok..
I find those who knee jerk to evolution humorious, while often judging other perspectives, they fail to look at both the assumptions and premiss.. all scientific belief is based on premisses.. not "FACTS" What are these so called facts? Some small heads found in the desert.. First you believe then you make your case... like the Grand Canyon.. " over millions of years blah blah blah.. failing to see that rivers do not cut deaper into flat areas, but rather silt and chnage course...
My point is that Evolutionary thinking is todays flat world, if one ?'s it, even thinking non "Beleivers" it is a sign of their mental "state". Read the tone in the thread.. does it sound like poeple who really want to find out what the truth is? Not the philosophical or religous truth, meaning of life , buut the cold scientific unbiased truth of reality... I think; "hearing you do not hear and seeing you do not see, lest you come to your senses and change" my paraphrase...

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 30
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