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RE: Dutch Icons - 2/7/2005 7:29:38 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

New artwork for Dutch ships by janushm.

Top to bottom:
Java (original left, new right)
Jan Van Amstel (original left, new right)
K-XIV (original left, new right)
New Coast Defense Ship Soerabaja and Gunboat/Seaplane Tender Valk





Well, I think the proportions are off some. Gonna need some touching up. Is Valk a little big? I like original Java more but it could just be the clarity.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 271
RE: Dutch Icons - 2/7/2005 9:06:20 PM   
janushm

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 10/18/2004
From: 's-Hertogenbosch, netherlands
Status: offline 		mmmh.........could do with more contrast. going to get some proper material on the soerabaja next week.......train trip to the hague

_____________________________

the escalated quickly...

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Post #: 272
RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 2/8/2005 6:39:18 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Ok, here is the "hypothetical" Oklahoma refit:



Her formast is cut down a bit like Pennsylvania, and she receives a mainmast like Nevada (the PA one didn't quite look right). Also, AA is added and the catapult on turret III is removed.


The new final fit for the Colorados, based on the Maryland as she looked in 1944. The standard blue/grey scheme is applied.

And, my first attempt at a camo pattern, Maryland as she appeared 26 April 1944:




Do you happen to have the "shil" for these, especially the top two???

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 273
RE: Dutch Icons - 2/8/2005 7:10:44 PM   
janushm

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 10/18/2004
From: 's-Hertogenbosch, netherlands
Status: offline 		redone Java..sendt it to don.............its a problem with downsizing it. proportions arent kept

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the escalated quickly...

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 274
RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 2/8/2005 8:39:07 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Ok, here is the "hypothetical" Oklahoma refit:



Her formast is cut down a bit like Pennsylvania, and she receives a mainmast like Nevada (the PA one didn't quite look right). Also, AA is added and the catapult on turret III is removed.


The new final fit for the Colorados, based on the Maryland as she looked in 1944. The standard blue/grey scheme is applied.

And, my first attempt at a camo pattern, Maryland as she appeared 26 April 1944:




Do you happen to have the "shil" for these, especially the top two???


No, I I'll try and get them done asap, with the rest of the graphics.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 275
RE: Radar for Old US Battleships - 2/8/2005 10:10:32 PM   
CobraAus


Posts: 2322
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Geelong Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Do you happen to have the "shil" for these, especially the top two???

shils done last night not sent yet coming to day

Cobra Aus

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 276
Why I like Schooners in the OOB - 2/12/2005 7:43:30 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		From: US Army Ships and Watercraft of World War II:




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 277
Rework of Allied Aux. Classes for Conversions - 2/14/2005 7:09:14 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		The "selectable" conversions from large AK to AD, AE, AR, AS, AV, and MLE appear to work based on a specific slot number in the database. The class in the designated slot is not always the most appropriate choice for a large AK conversion. In order to fix this, and to get Ron Saueracker off of my butt, I am about to make the following adjustments:

AD
Currently upgrades to Dixie class in slot 381 (with an upgrade to slot 1501). The desired upgrade is to a C3 conversion. Hamul class is the best choice
Dixie class moved from slot 381 to an empty slot (slot 1501 not affected)
Hamul class created in slot 381

AE
Currently upgrades to Pyro in slot 353 (with upgrade to slot 1491). Correct choice is Lassen class – currently in slot 354 with upgrade to slot 1492
Switch Pyro and Lassen in slots 353/354 and 1491/1492

AR
Currently upgrades to Medusa in slot 356. Correct choice C3 conversion is Delta.
Medusa class moved from slot 356 to an empty slot
Delta class created in slot 356 (and incorrectly classed Briareus switched to this class)

AS
Currently converts to Otus in slot 375. Otus was a C1 conversion, correct C3 would be Griffin or Euryale.
Otus Class moved from slot 375 to an empty slot
Griffin Class created in slot 375 (and incorrectly classes units of Delta and Euryale class swithed to this class).

AV
Converts to Tangier class, which were C3 conversions. OK


I've worked up a new icon for the new C3 conversion classes. It is actually of Hamul as I happened to have a good line drawing of her. We'll use it for all three new C3 conversion classes.

Comments appreciated.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 278
RE: Rework of Allied Aux. Classes for Conversions - 2/14/2005 7:15:38 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Well, you know my comment will be.."another awesome job completed by Don Bowen Inc."

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 279
RE: Rework of Allied Aux. Classes for Conversions - 2/14/2005 10:07:14 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
quote:

AR
Currently upgrades to Medusa in slot 356. Correct choice C3 conversion is Delta.
Medusa class moved from slot 356 to an empty slot
Delta class created in slot 356 (and incorrectly classed Briareus switched to this class)


Changes done and tested. It turns out the the AR conversion is to the Vulcan class, not Medusa (should have checked). Medusa remains in slot 356. Vulcans moved from 357/1493 to 434/1496. Deltas added in 357 and 1493.

Don

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 280
Allied Task Forces - 2/16/2005 4:50:40 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		I've completed a rework of the Allied Task Forces that were at Sea at the beginning of the war.

All original Scenario 15 Task Forces have been adjusted by Andrew Brown to his map. In addition, I have switched the Enterprise and Lexington task forces so that Lexington is moving to a point near Midway and Enterprise is returning to Pearl Harbor. I have not (yet) adjusted their starting positions and would welcome comments on this. Historically close to Pearl and they will be engaged on the first day of the war (which, I suspect, is why Matrix originally placed them further away).

The following additional Task Forces are being added:

  • US Gunboat Isabel returning to Manila from patrol (read "bait") off French Indochina
  • US Destroyer Litchfield off Pearl Harbor - ASW exercises with submarine Thresher
  • British Cruiser Exeter at Sea in the Indian Ocean - destination set to Singapore (this ship was on patrol on December 7th and was ordered to Singapore to Join Force Z). In order to prevent the AI from routing her through the death trap of the Malacca Straits her initial position is placed much farther south)
  • British Cruiser Glasgow on patrol in the Indian Ocean
  • US Seaplane Tender Wright returning to Pearl Harbor from Midway
  • US Transport William Ward Burrows enroute Wake
  • US Gunboat Wake - in reduced commission at Shanghai
  • US Transport President Harrison enroute Tientsin
  • Australian Cruiser Adelaide and Norwegian Freighter Fingal enroute Port Moresby
  • Dutch Transport Jagersfontein arriving at Pearl Harbor
  • US Army Transport Cynthia Olson enroute Pearl Harbor
  • Norwegian Transport Høegh Merchant enroute Pearl Harbor
  • British Cargo Ship Ariadne Moller at sea near Hong Kong, enroute Manila
  • Norwegian Cargo Ship Nordhval at sea near Guam
  • US Oiler Brazos enroute Dutch Harbor
  • US Oiler Sepulga enroute Pearl Harbor


Anyone have any others??

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 281
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/16/2005 7:42:13 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline 		DD Vampire + AP Kanimbla underway from Penang to Singapore
ML (MSW) Bungaree southbound to Sydned (arrived 12-09-41 at Sydney)
MSW Ballarat underway from Townsville to Darwin
MSW Toowoomba + Wollongong escorting convoy to Sydney (coastal convoy, but don't know which ships they were escorting)

CVL Hermes was at Durban for repairs on 12-07-41 (but its planes were on Ceylon)

(all according to Niehorster)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 282
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/16/2005 10:13:14 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
DD Vampire + AP Kanimbla underway from Penang to Singapore

We originally passed on this one as other sources say in-port at Penang, but it might be worth putting in. Good chance they'll be subject to air attack.

quote:


ML (MSW) Bungaree southbound to Sydney (arrived 12-09-41 at Sydney)

Decided to leave this one out - no real value

quote:


MSW Ballarat underway from Townsville to Darwin

We are currently considering the two convoys that took Gull and Sparrow Forces to Timor and Ambon. The Timor force left Darwin on December 8th with Westralia and Zealandia but the Ambon force did not sail until the 14th with Adelaide, Ballarat, and three Dutch transports. We MAY put both the Timor and Ambon Task Forces in at the beginning in order to accomplish an "automatic" load and move of the two AIF forces. The debate is currently raging. If we do, Adelaide will be pulled from the Port Moresby bound convoy and she and Ballarat will be included in the Ambon Convoy. Opinions??

quote:


MSW Toowoomba + Wollongong escorting convoy to Sydney (coastal convoy, but don't know which ships they were escorting)

Neither do we and we placed the two corvettes in Sydney (one was in Singapore with Ballarat in scenario 15).

quote:


CVL Hermes was at Durban for repairs on 12-07-41 (but its planes were on Ceylon)
(all according to Niehorster)

Another sticky one. We currently have her with a 42/03/02 arrival, planes on board. We have a problem with her airgroup. Historically it was No. 814 Squadron FAA (how's that, Andrew?). After Hermes was lost, 814 ended up on the Venerable (in the OOB for a 1945 arrival). In Scenario 15 Hermes is given a "where'd-that-come-from" airgroup of two squadrons with 800 names. On the list of things to reseach is an alternate airgroup for Venerable that will free up 814 Squadron for the historical disposition that you mention. Otherwise we'll cut her airgroup to a single Swordfish squadron (probably the current TF-800 or maybe TF-814) and have it arrive with Hermes. The movement of airgroups between carriers makes it impossible to have a 100% accurate air OOB and we just guesses as best we can.

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 283
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/16/2005 10:53:00 PM   
Jo van der Pluym


Posts: 834
Joined: 10/28/2000
From: Valkenburg Lb, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Another sticky one. We currently have her with a 42/03/02 arrival, planes on board. We have a problem with her airgroup. Historically it was No. 814 Squadron FAA (how's that, Andrew?). After Hermes was lost, 814 ended up on the Venerable (in the OOB for a 1945 arrival). In Scenario 15 Hermes is given a "where'd-that-come-from" airgroup of two squadrons with 800 names. On the list of things to reseach is an alternate airgroup for Venerable that will free up 814 Squadron for the historical disposition that you mention. Otherwise we'll cut her airgroup to a single Swordfish squadron (probably the current TF-800 or maybe TF-814) and have it arrive with Hermes. The movement of airgroups between carriers makes it impossible to have a 100% accurate air OOB and we just guesses as best we can.
[/quote]

The following link had info about the FAA. Including Squadrons, deployment Carriers


http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/

< Message edited by Jo van der Pluym -- 2/16/2005 9:53:13 PM >

_____________________________

Greetings from the Netherlands

Jo van der Pluym
CrazyDutch

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 284
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 1:20:58 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym

The following link had info about the FAA. Including Squadrons, deployment Carriers

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/


Thanks Jo. We actually checked that one for this question. The problem is that a single squadron was used on two carriers. 814 was on Hermes till sunk, then disbanded and eventually reformed and reappeared on Venerable. We don't want to duplicate squadrons. Usually we can find an alternate squadron that served on one of the ships around the same time but with these two we can not.

I appreciate you reminding me of the site, though. I am going to research the British CVE airgroups there and might as well do it tonight.

Don

(in reply to Jo van der Pluym)
Post #: 285
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 4:50:54 AM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		Give Venerable no 814 aircraft squadron of its own... this squadron would not have been available if Hermes had not sunk.

We are not allowing Japan any 'possible' units so we should not give the Allies any.

Allies get too many as it is with every squadron being available all game.

Mike

_____________________________



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Post #: 286
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 6:01:50 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
... Historically it was No. 814 Squadron FAA (how's that, Andrew?)...




_____________________________

Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website


(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 287
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 6:02:06 AM   
eMonticello


Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline 		I believe this may help. Perhaps having them both rendezvous near Johnston Island would make sense.

From the Navy:
"On 7 December 1941 Lexington was at sea with Task Force 12 (TF 12) carrying marine aircraft from Pearl Harbor to reinforce Midway when word of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was received. She immediately launched searchplanes to hunt for the Japanese fleet , and at mid-morning headed south to rendezvous with USS Indianapolis (CA 35) and USS Enterprise (CV 6) task forces to conduct a search southwest of Oahu until returning Pearl Harbor 18 December. "

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/histories/cv02-lexington/cv02-lexington.html

From the National Park Service:
"On the 5th, Task Force 12 sailed from Pearl. Eighteen light gray Vought SB2U-3 Vindicators from CMSB-231 (ed. VMSB-231 in the game), under 41-year old Major Clarence J. "Buddy" Chappell, then made the 1.7-hour flight from Ewa and landed on board Lexington, along with the "Lady Lex" air group. Planes recovered, the force set course for Midway. The Lexington departed Pearl Harbor on the morning of 5 December. "

http://www.nps.gov/wapa/indepth/extContent/usmc/pcn-190-003116-00/sec1.htm

From the Vought company website:
"Just prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, USS Lexington had embarked with 18 SB2U-3’s of VMSB-231 (of the 24 aircraft assigned) for transportation to Midway Island. When the ship received word of the Japanese attack, she turned back and flew the SB2U-3’s back to their base at Ewa. On arrival at MCAS Ewa, the squadron found that its remaining six SB2U-3’s had been destroyed on the ground during the Japanese attack.

On December 17 1941, the remaining air-worthy SB2U-3’s (17 aircraft) of VMSB deployed from Ewa for the long over-water flight from Hawaii to Midway Island. Led by a PBY Catalina, the unit set a new distance record for a flight of single-engine aircraft. The squadron completed the 1,137-mile journey in 9 hours and 45 minutes, proving that the SB2U-3 had extremely “long legs.”"

http://www.vought.com/heritage/special/html/ssb2u2.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I've completed a rework of the Allied Task Forces that were at Sea at the beginning of the war.

All original Scenario 15 Task Forces have been adjusted by Andrew Brown to his map. In addition, I have switched the Enterprise and Lexington task forces so that Lexington is moving to a point near Midway and Enterprise is returning to Pearl Harbor. I have not (yet) adjusted their starting positions and would welcome comments on this. Historically close to Pearl and they will be engaged on the first day of the war (which, I suspect, is why Matrix originally placed them further away).

Anyone have any others??


_____________________________


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(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 288
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 6:07:00 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

We are currently considering the two convoys that took Gull and Sparrow Forces to Timor and Ambon. The Timor force left Darwin on December 8th with Westralia and Zealandia but the Ambon force did not sail until the 14th with Adelaide, Ballarat, and three Dutch transports. We MAY put both the Timor and Ambon Task Forces in at the beginning in order to accomplish an "automatic" load and move of the two AIF forces. The debate is currently raging. If we do, Adelaide will be pulled from the Port Moresby bound convoy and she and Ballarat will be included in the Ambon Convoy. Opinions??


Don,

I have to say that I am definitely against adding the Ambon force convoy. The sailing date is a week into the scenario and it is definitely tying the hands of the Allied player - they should be in full control of their forces from day one.

I am still leaning against adding in the 8th December convoy as well. Most Allied players will simply reroute the convoy to another location if they want anyway, so I don't think it will do much to force a historic disposition of forces. That is my current view.

Andrew

_____________________________

Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website


(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 289
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 7:15:30 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

The following additional Task Forces are being added:

  • US Gunboat Isabel returning to Manila from patrol (read "bait") off French Indochina
  • US Destroyer Litchfield off Pearl Harbor - ASW exercises with submarine Thresher
  • British Cruiser Exeter at Sea in the Indian Ocean - destination set to Singapore (this ship was on patrol on December 7th and was ordered to Singapore to Join Force Z). In order to prevent the AI from routing her through the death trap of the Malacca Straits her initial position is placed much farther south)
  • British Cruiser Glasgow on patrol in the Indian Ocean
  • US Seaplane Tender Wright returning to Pearl Harbor from Midway
  • US Transport William Ward Burrows enroute Wake
  • US Gunboat Wake - in reduced commission at Shanghai
  • US Transport President Harrison enroute Tientsin
  • Australian Cruiser Adelaide and Norwegian Freighter Fingal enroute Port Moresby
  • Dutch Transport Jagersfontein arriving at Pearl Harbor
  • US Army Transport Cynthia Olson enroute Pearl Harbor
  • Norwegian Transport Høegh Merchant enroute Pearl Harbor
  • British Cargo Ship Ariadne Moller at sea near Hong Kong, enroute Manila
  • Norwegian Cargo Ship Nordhval at sea near Guam
  • US Oiler Brazos enroute Dutch Harbor
  • US Oiler Sepulga enroute Pearl Harbor


Anyone have any others??



My compliments on a very thorough list

Dont know if you already have it but there was an US ARMY convoy that left SF on Dec 5th heading for the Philipines. It comprised of the SS Pres. Johnson, SS Pres. Garfield, USAT Etolin, and USAT Tasker Bliss. Carrying the 35th Fighter Group HQ squadron, the 70th Pursuit Sqd. (18 x P-36As), the 218th FA Regt. and 138th FA Bn. Now since in WitP APs cant carry squadrons I guess you would need to add a generic AK to embark the 70th PS. No way really to model the 35th HQ though and the two arty units were partial so they would need to be damaged I guess.

Again very nice work

Sources: USAAF in WWII Vol. I, Dr. Neohorster OOB index, 70th FS website, 35th FG website

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 290
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 7:20:12 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		I notice artwork for the USS Kittyhawk aircraft ferry. Just curious how exactly you intend to model this in the game? If just as another AK I dont see the point. As a CVE would be more accuate since the aircraft could be ferried intact but that would require a house rule to prevent air ops. Or have you guys found another way?

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 291
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 9:01:08 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

Dont know if you already have it but there was an US ARMY convoy that left SF on Dec 5th heading for the Philipines. It comprised of the SS Pres. Johnson, SS Pres. Garfield, USAT Etolin, and USAT Tasker Bliss. Carrying the 35th Fighter Group HQ squadron, the 70th Pursuit Sqd. (18 x P-36As), the 218th FA Regt. and 138th FA Bn. Now since in WitP APs cant carry squadrons I guess you would need to add a generic AK to embark the 70th PS. No way really to model the 35th HQ though and the two arty units were partial so they would need to be damaged I guess.
Sources: USAAF in WWII Vol. I, Dr. Neohorster OOB index, 70th FS website, 35th FG website

These ships actually did not sail in convoy but were individually routed to Pearl Harbor - convoys for the Philippines were formed there. All (except maybe one) returned to San Francisco and unloaded after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Unfortunately there is no data on which unit was loaded on which ship. Originally looked at these and decided to leave them out.


  • The 2/138th FA Bn became the 198th Independent FA Battalion and arrived in Pearl Harbor on December 21st. That is much to long a delay for a direct voyage but I do not know if the unit was unloaded/reloaded or if the ship carrying it was diverted. The 198th is not currently in the OOB and not sure if it is worth adding. Could do it though, and see if I can find which transport arrived in Hawaii on 12/21.
  • The 1/218th FA Bn was merged into the 204th FA Regiment and send East - out of the WITP area.
  • The 35th Group (which lost all it's other squadrons in the Philippines) had to be rebuilt and re-appears as a new unit in January. As you say there is no way to represent transport of a group without aircraft.
  • There is considerable debate on the aircraft of the 70th Squadron. It is true that the 70th was equipped with P-36 in November, 1941. However, the U.S. was in the middle of upgrading the aircraft of the Far East Air Force to P-40E and there is little reason to believe that valuable shipping space would be used to transport the older P-36 models. The ships of the previous “Pensacola” Convoy carried 18 P-40E intended for the 34th Squadron/35th Group, which was already in the Philippines, flying P-35s. Apparently only the personnel of the 70th were being transported – the 70th was to take over the P-35s freed up from the 24th Squadron until additional P-40s could be shipped. However, there is no way to transport a squadron without aircraft. Note that the 70th was re-equipped with P-39 before it’s deployment to Fiji in February, 1942.

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 292
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 9:04:09 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

I notice artwork for the USS Kittyhawk aircraft ferry. Just curious how exactly you intend to model this in the game? If just as another AK I dont see the point. As a CVE would be more accuate since the aircraft could be ferried intact but that would require a house rule to prevent air ops. Or have you guys found another way?


Nope - it's just another AK. I originally modelled them with a very large capacity but then found out that an airgroup takes up very little capacity so it was a waste. But, with all that time in the artwork you don't think I would discard it, do you?

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 293
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 9:52:51 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Unfortunately there is no data on which unit was loaded on which ship.


OK, found most of it: The 2nd/138th FA was aboard the President Johnson and 1/218th aboard the Etolin. President Garfield carried "the reminder of the 35th Pursuit Group" and a note makes me think some 35th Group units (maybe 70th Squadron) were also aboard President Johnston. No info on Bliss.

I'll add the President Johnson with the 198th FA Bn (the 2/138th)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 294
Allied Naval/Air changes - 2/17/2005 10:40:56 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		I've read through the posts and decided:

  • The convoys for Gull and Sparrow forces will not be formed. Adelaide will be left in the convoy about to enter Port Moresby and Ballarat will be placed in a new convoy about half-way between Townsville and Darwin.
  • The 198th US FA Bn will be created and loaded aboard President Johnson, which will be placed in a convoy 2 days (9 hexes) out from San Francisco enroute Pearl Harbor.
  • No. 814 Squadron FAA will be loaded aboard Hermes for her early 1942 arrival. It will be removed from Venerable, which will arrive in May, 1945 carrying only No.1851 Squadron FAA (with Corsairs)
  • Five British CVE will have their airgroups altered: Reaper and Vindex will be aircraft transports and will have no airgroup assigned. Empress, Pursuer, and Trouncer will be replenishment carriers and will have their airgroups changed to replenishment squadrons. The remaining carriers will be:


    • Fighter Carriers with all fighters - Ameer, Arbiter, Atheling, Attacker, Emperor, Fencer, Hunter, Khedive, Slinger, Speaker, Stalker. In reality I suspect some of these may have been replenishment carriers but I have no data to support it.

    • Assault Carriers with Fighters and Torpedo Planes or else fighters and fighter-bombers: Chaser, Ruler, Searcher, Shah, Striker, Trumpeter

    • Escort Carriers, with ASW squadrons and a fighter flight: Battler, Begum.

    Airgroups for all are the best I can do - frequent movement of squadrons between ships makes an exact air OOB impossible. Also the designation of Fighter/Assault/Escort carrier is not 100% accurate but is based on the airgroup I was able to isolate. For instance, Victorious arrived with No. 896 Squadron (and others) in early 1943 but Empress and Ameer both carried it at various times in July, 1945 - Victorious got it, Ameer got another squadron from earlier in the year, Empress became a replenishment CVE, and I have a headache.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 295
RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 2/17/2005 11:19:27 AM   
stubby331


Posts: 268
Joined: 10/24/2001
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline 		Hi Guys,
Been catching up on what your trying to achieve and it all looks good. A quick chat with Ron the other day and the subject of HMAS Yarra came up. Question for you? Are you listing the Yarra, Swan and Warrego as Modified Gramsby Class?

See Below:

quote:

ORIGINAL: stubby331

Regarding the "Swan" Class PG Comprising the ships SWAN, YARRA and WARREGO.

These ships are actually Modified Grimsby Class.

IN WITP they are shown as having 2 x 4inch guns only (main armament). This is incorrect.

They actually had 3 x 4 inch guns comprising:

2 x 4 inch guns in a Twin mounted casemate Forward
1 x 4 inch gun in a single casemate Aft

For supporting reference:
http://www.navy.gov.au/spc/history/ships/yarra2.htm
http://www.navy.gov.au/spc/history/ships/swan2.htm
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/grimsby.htm
http://users.hunterlink.net.au/~ciadm/Warrego/Page2.html

The Standard Grimsby had only 2 x 4 inch guns.

The Modified Grimsby had 3.

_____________________________

In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 296
RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 6:38:35 PM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


These ships actually did not sail in convoy but were individually routed to Pearl Harbor - convoys for the Philippines were formed there. All (except maybe one) returned to San Francisco and unloaded after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Unfortunately there is no data on which unit was loaded on which ship. Originally looked at these and decided to leave them out.

  • The 2/138th FA Bn became the 198th Independent FA Battalion and arrived in Pearl Harbor on December 21st. That is much to long a delay for a direct voyage but I do not know if the unit was unloaded/reloaded or if the ship carrying it was diverted. The 198th is not currently in the OOB and not sure if it is worth adding. Could do it though, and see if I can find which transport arrived in Hawaii on 12/21.
  • The 1/218th FA Bn was merged into the 204th FA Regiment and send East - out of the WITP area.
  • The 35th Group (which lost all it's other squadrons in the Philippines) had to be rebuilt and re-appears as a new unit in January. As you say there is no way to represent transport of a group without aircraft.
  • There is considerable debate on the aircraft of the 70th Squadron. It is true that the 70th was equipped with P-36 in November, 1941. However, the U.S. was in the middle of upgrading the aircraft of the Far East Air Force to P-40E and there is little reason to believe that valuable shipping space would be used to transport the older P-36 models. The ships of the previous “Pensacola” Convoy carried 18 P-40E intended for the 34th Squadron/35th Group, which was already in the Philippines, flying P-35s. Apparently only the personnel of the 70th were being transported – the 70th was to take over the P-35s freed up from the 24th Squadron until additional P-40s could be shipped. However, there is no way to transport a squadron without aircraft. Note that the 70th was re-equipped with P-39 before it’s deployment to Fiji


    • Hi Don

    Yes absolutely correct they didnt ship out as convoy but they did leave on the same day in should all be within 60miles (1hex). Personally I feel all units should be frozen with there Dec.7th designation and it should be up to the player to decide wether to return them to SF or not. No reason to believe that under all circumstances the 218th would have been sent east.

    Regarding the 70th PS. According to the 70th FS History and USAAF in WWII Vol.1, the squadron was embarked on the SS Pres. Johnson. Neither say whether or not with their a/c. However Neorhorster indicates they were embarked with 18 P-36As and all sources indicate thats the aircraft the 70th was equiped with prior to embarking. The 70th FS history does say the first time they saw a P-39 was when they uncrated them in Fiji.

    Personally dont feel that it is much a stretch that the a/c were embarked. It was common practice to ship crated a/c on APs early in the war. The APs SS Pres. Coolidge, SS Mariposa and USAT Etolin and USAT Miegs all ferried crated aircraft to Oz in the first weeks of the war. Certainly the P-36s would be in better shape than the decrepit P-35s in the PI. Regardless wether you decide to embark them or not the 70th PS should start the game equiped with P-36s that upgrade to P-39s.

    Off topic but, what have decided to do about the 34th RCT (not in the game oob) that was preparing to embark for the PI at SF on Dec 7th? Historically, Roosevelt had wanted to send this unit as planned to the Far East theater but was overruled by the Army which insisted it go to Hawaii where it eventually was absorbed into the 24th Division. FDR did get his way in insisting that the Pensecola convoy continue on to Oz angainst the Army's wishes. Again I think these decision she be left up to the player.

    Great work on the OOB.

    (in reply to Don Bowen)
    Post #: 297
    RE: Allied Task Forces - 2/17/2005 6:42:10 PM   
    TIMJOT

     

    Posts: 1822
    Joined: 4/30/2001
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


    Nope - it's just another AK. I originally modelled them with a very large capacity but then found out that an airgroup takes up very little capacity so it was a waste. But, with all that time in the artwork you don't think I would discard it, do you?



    No not at all, very nice artwork. Was just hopeing you had figured out some way in the editor to ferry intact aircraft without having air ops capability.

    (in reply to Don Bowen)
    Post #: 298
    RE: Allied Naval/Air changes - 2/17/2005 6:48:06 PM   
    TIMJOT

     

    Posts: 1822
    Joined: 4/30/2001
    Status: offline     		Hi Don

    Any decision on the 27th Lt BG. I realize its original pilots and ground crews were in the PI, but its A24s and 48 replacement pilots plus ground crews were embarked on the Pencecola convoy. This unit was reformed upon arrival to OZ with these replacements and a cadre that was flown out from the PI. Since this unit did become operational, its my feeling it should be included but with very low expirience and moral to model the adhoc nature of the unit.

    (in reply to Don Bowen)
    Post #: 299
    RE: Allied Naval/Air changes - 2/17/2005 7:29:47 PM   
    Philbass


    Posts: 34
    Joined: 12/30/2004
    From: London, UK
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
  • Five British CVE will have their airgroups altered: Reaper and Vindex will be aircraft transports and will have no airgroup assigned. Empress, Pursuer, and Trouncer will be replenishment carriers and will have their airgroups changed to replenishment squadrons. The remaining carriers will be:


    • Fighter Carriers with all fighters - Ameer, Arbiter, Atheling, Attacker, Emperor, Fencer, Hunter, Khedive, Slinger, Speaker, Stalker. In reality I suspect some of these may have been replenishment carriers but I have no data to support it.

    • Assault Carriers with Fighters and Torpedo Planes or else fighters and fighter-bombers: Chaser, Ruler, Searcher, Shah, Striker, Trumpeter

    • Escort Carriers, with ASW squadrons and a fighter flight: Battler, Begum.

    Airgroups for all are the best I can do - frequent movement of squadrons between ships makes an exact air OOB impossible. Also the designation of Fighter/Assault/Escort carrier is not 100% accurate but is based on the airgroup I was able to isolate. For instance, Victorious arrived with No. 896 Squadron (and others) in early 1943 but Empress and Ameer both carried it at various times in July, 1945 - Victorious got it, Ameer got another squadron from earlier in the year, Empress became a replenishment CVE, and I have a headache.



    • Don,

    Well according to the British Naval Staff History as of 15 August there was the following situation (see table attached). Do you want commanders names for these carriers (well all British ships as of August 15)? Or are we not bothering with the leader database? I also have where the FAA squadrons were on August 15 1945. Perhaps it would be easier to use what/where they ended up with, rather than where they arrived in theatre as it is a known datum and may keep your headache levels down... Perhaps an HQ for the British Pacific Fleet would be nice as well - timed to arrive in November 1944 when the Eastern Fleet was disbanded and the East Indies and British Pacific Fleets formed in its stead.

    I like the call on 814 Squadron. If I recall, I don't think it was on Hermes when she was sunk.

    Also are we adding in extra New Zealand and Canadian ships?

    New Zealand got 2 Flower Class Corvettes in 1944 - ARBUTUS and ARABIS.
    ...ARABIS was the senior ship of the 25th Minesweeping Flotilla in late 1944, while ARBUTUS hit a reef off Fiji in November 1944 ("court maritals all round" as CPO Pertwee would say), while on voyage to NZ. Repairs weren't completed until early May 1945, by which time she was no longer needed in the Solomons and she was offered for service with the British Pacific Fleet. The RN took up the offers and had her modified at Sydney as a 'radio and radar maintenance ship' - a task for which she was singularly unsuited, lacking stowage space for spares or even proper workshop facilities. Source: MOD Naval Historial Branch The British Pacific and East Indies Fleets: 'The Forgotten Fleets' 50th Anniversary (London: HMSO, 1995)

    While with Canada:
    ...the auxillary anti-aircraft ship HMCS PRINCE ROBERT left Esquimalt on 5 July [1945] after a brief work-up, carried out practice firings off Pearl Harbour towards the end of the month and reached Sydney on 10 August.

    A 21-kt ship, with an AA armament the equal of a light cruiser's, she had already been allocated to the BPF's second carrier task force, which centred on the 24-kt Light Fleet carriers. On 14 August, this force was informed that its first operation would be cover US Navy minesweepers off the northern coast of China, undertaking strikes on mainland targets as opportunity offered....Had the war continued into 1946, as it was expected to do until early August 1945, the Royal Canadian Navy would have furnished no fewer than five destroyers and 36 frigates, besides the two cruisers and the PRINCE ROBERT.     Source: MOD (1995) The British Pacific and East Indies Fleets

    In addition, in 1945 the East Indies Fleet had the French cruier SUFFREN allocated to it, but I haven't checked to see where that actually was.

    Any use or am I being crazy guy?

    Regards,

    Philip Bass




    Attachment (1)

    _____________________________

    Plan followed plan in swift procession,
    Commanders went; commanders came,
    While telegrams in quick succession
    Arrived to douse or fan the flame

    (in reply to Don Bowen)
    Post #: 300
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