Ammo resuply - best practises

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Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/17/2005 8:14:25 PM

Dusan

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/17/2005
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I have started dealing with Russians. Well, I'm dealing with them all the time, but this time on their side. :-) The biggest problem of Russians is a lack of ammo. They simply do not have enough rounds for their big guns (ISU-122, IS 2-4 and other big gun holders all have about 8 AP rounds!). I do not know if this is historically correct. However, even if it is, I can't use in the game the Russian's most favourite tactics, i.e. use ten times more men than opponent and there should be some results. So using of ammo resuply is crucial.
I have done some tests and realised:
a) russian ammo trucks are so sloooooooow
b) resupply rate is very low (about 2 shells per turn starting with second turn)
c) resupply process can be very easily disturbed

So the bottom line is, the otherwise great IS-4 for 238 points is able to kill about two hard armour opponents and then have to be taken out of the fight for at least ten turns (2 for leaving, 6 for resupply, 2 for going back to a line). That doesn't sound like a very sensible tactic to me. The problem is even worsened by the fact that late Russians are lacking of medium tank capable of taking out bigger modern opponents (such as M-26+).
How are you fighting with Russians despite of this disadvantage?

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Dusan the virtual panzergrenadiere
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Post #: 1

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/17/2005 8:40:44 PM

Poopyhead

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The manual says that the Russians resupply at the slowest rate, so you are out of luck there. I usually stack two or more ammo carriers together to get a faster reload rate for my Wurfrahmen. Ammo carriers can stay closer to the front too. Or you might try a "high-low" mix of AFV's, for instance some T-34/85's (for lighter targets) with the IS-4's, so that you can save the Stalin's 122 mm AP for Katzen.

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Post #: 2

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/17/2005 10:06:55 PM

IBTyrone

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From: Kentucky, USA
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Hi Dusan.

Poopyhead has it right--two ammo trucks resupply as fast as one ammo dump. Maybe you need to buy more ammo trucks?

I usually don't bother to resupply my heavy armor--or more precisely--when I purchase armor I make sure what I buy has enough ammo so I shouldn't need resupply. If I have to pull an AFV off the line to resupply, not only is it one less gun to fire on the enemy, but one less target to draw fire from my other units.

I only use ammo trucks and ammo dumps with artillery. Many times big tubes can accomplish much the same thing you are trying to do with your heavy AFVs. You may be able to suppress enemy armor and then work your smaller AFVs for flanking or rear shots. This strategy works great with the Americans and M4s. Haven't tried it as the Russians.

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Post #: 3

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/17/2005 11:02:54 PM

Dusan

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The problem with Russians is that they do not have *any* heavy armour with enough ammo. So your strategy means no heavy armour at all, but these ISs or ISUs are the biggest Russian strength.
I do not think that there is historically accuracy in this. Couldn't accept the theory that Russians send their heavy armours to battles with eight rounds of AP ammunition.
Also if I think about how armours get their ammo, I do not understand why two ammo trucks resupply quicker than one. It seems to me the weekest link should be the guy who is moving shells through turret lid.

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Post #: 4

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/17/2005 11:10:55 PM

JediMessiah

Posts: 157
Joined: 3/1/2001
From: Elmhurst, Il, USA
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an idea...

i use this when i but units with big guns, and sometimes even for an overused mg

buy an extra ammo truck to deliver ammo to front line troops, so instead of driving them back to the ammo, drive the ammo to them.

works well for atgs and big inf guns and small mortars, also for any dugin tds

(try positioning them just over a hill for plunging fire, and drive the truck up top the reverse slope - or resupply at new postion if your moving your guns) or even easier if using a reverse slope defense

this works for me (especially when i field the occasional sturmtiger or brumbear ;)

-jedimessiah

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Post #: 5

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/18/2005 8:37:01 AM

Dragoon 45

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The weapons load out you mention is pretty much accurate according to the references that I have available. The vast majority of rounds fired by tanks in WW II were HE rounds. Something like 80-90 percent of all rounds fired by Shermans were HE according to U.S. Army historical sources. I would imagine the same would hold true for the Russians. Most T-34's went into action with 20 or less rounds of AP ammo. When it comes to the 122mm and 152mm guns in the heavier Russian tanks and SP's there was limited ammo stowage available mainly because of the size of the round. I have read sources that stated the Russians in some cases used the practice the U.S. Army developed for their 105mm Shermans, they pulled a trailer loaded with extra ammo behind the vehicle. But this would envolve the crew dismounting the vehicle to resupply out of the trailer, and could be a dicey proposition when under fire. Also some SP guns on both the German and Soviet sides had dedicated ammo resupply vehicles that advanced with the guns into combat. They were generally unarmed, armored ammo resupply vehicles such as a version of the Sdkfz 250 that was a dedicated resupply vehicle for StuG Batteries. Most sides armored resupply vehicles are not included in the game along with the tracked tractors that pulled a lot of the artillery and AT guns used.

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Post #: 6

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/18/2005 4:50:46 PM

Poopyhead

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Dusan, When I park my Wurfrahmen next to one ammo carrier, I get one round per turn. With two ammo carriers (and their crews) I get two rounds. Soooo...
I read once that the problem with the ammo load is that 122 mm AP was too big to be in one round. There was an HE bag that carried the powder and the business end was separate. This was before auto loaders. So 10 AP rounds are really twenty units of cargo.

< Message edited by Poopyhead -- 2/18/2005 2:51:52 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/18/2005 9:32:58 PM

Inuil

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Joined: 2/28/2001
From: Alicante. Espa�a.
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I have reading time ago, russians have a very low espectative of life for his mechanizated forces... the AP round cost most raw materials than the HE (of course HVAP many more) this could be a cause for the low AP ammo in russian tanks. Every german panzer at war have a kill ratio incredible for his own numbers.
Is important too the size and number of german mechanizated forces in the east front... Usually Germany fielded no more than 1500 Pz in all east front at any time. By this and despite the famous armored battles, the normal target of armored russian forces are "soft" targets. Then HE ammo are more desirable in numbers.

(Sorry by my limited vocabulary comrades, but I do all I do, not all I want)

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Post #: 8

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/20/2005 1:02:17 AM

Dusan

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Well, I think that there is a general problem with Russians in this game. This is only one of its faces. The problem is that Russians relied heavilly on numbers, which is something very hard to implement in a computer game. To be historically correct, Russians should have everything in game for about tenth of its price. However, in that case they will simply win everything, because it is not possible in the game to implement sheer stupidity of their generals, uncreativness and rigidity of lower offficers, bad preparation, weak logistics and zero human life value. With their material supremacy, they should simply win single handed and be in Berlin somewhere around '43, but it obviously didn't happened. I think that if we are going to accept this unrealistic behaviour of the game (and there is no other way), we could also accept a slightly higher ammo capacity. I'm still trying to find a way how to fight as Russians, but for example battling USA after the end of the war is extremely difficult.

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Post #: 9

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 2/23/2005 10:31:24 AM

KNomad

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From: Buffalo, NY USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dusan

The problem is that Russians relied heavilly on numbers ... to be historically correct, Russians should have everything in game for about tenth of its price.

Actually - the Soviets had an ~20% purchase advantage built in to the game mechanics at one time. Might still be old parts of that code floating around - I've seen strange results (pointwise) when setting up East Front PBEM scenarios.

< Message edited by KNomad -- 2/23/2005 4:10:15 AM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 3/1/2005 8:27:49 PM

Dusan

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Joined: 2/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KNomad
Actually - the Soviets had an ~20% purchase advantage built in to the game mechanics at one time. Might still be old parts of that code floating around - I've seen strange results (pointwise) when setting up East Front PBEM scenarios.

I'm not sure if it was ever implemented in W@W, but in the original SPI this was true. On the other side the Russians had extreme handicap to accuracy (Fire Control 2) and also to average crew experiences.

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Post #: 11

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 3/5/2005 12:46:38 AM

Wild Bill

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What has been done in the game is to attempt to recreate not only the units but the logistical and other difficulties all of the major combatants suffered during the war. This adds a touch of realism that I would sometimes be hesitant to change. We're talking about BIG guns here with big resupply problems that seem to have always existed in the USSR.

In addition to what has been suggested, unless you are playing computer genereated games, is to load the scenarios into the editor and give them more ammo.

Otherwise, you as a battlefield commander, are faced with making do with what you have...and that fact is very realistic.

WB

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Post #: 12

RE: Ammo resuply - best practises - 3/5/2005 1:06:08 AM

KG Erwin

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I fully concur with what Bill said--in my long campaign experiences, ammo trucks are vital in sustaining an assault (with limited ammo ON), but their cost also takes away from additional off-board arty and air support. This is where your judgement as overall commander comes into focus. Also, those ammo trucks are very fragile--I've lost too many when they blunder into the enemy's line of sight--the AI zeroes in on high-value units with direct fire and its artillery, so they are precious commodities.

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