how do you use PT?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> how do you use PT?

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how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 7:52:56 PM

Zeke

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I am desperately in need of ships, so I am thinking about use them

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 8:06:01 PM

Mr.Frag

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If you have any available, the number will be shown on your (I)nformation panel.

Simply send a transport with supply to where you want them built and use the Activate PT Boats from the Task Force Panel.

A new TF will be formed with your PT's

(in reply to Zeke)

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 8:16:53 PM

Zeke

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I know I know, I hava a TF of them already, just don't know what job they can do, i sent them out and they always run out of fuel on the way back

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 8:18:48 PM

ckk

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What Frag said but immediately check their destination and homeport or you will find them wandering off.

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 8:18:51 PM

Mr.Frag

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They are pretty much single hex defence ships. They don't burn fuel as long as they stay in 1 hex unlike other ships. Get them where you need them with some other ship to refuel them then leave them to patrol the hex.

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 8:19:56 PM

Feinder

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How do you use them vs. bad-guys...

They're very short ranged. About 3 - 4 hexes, before they have to to turn around and refuel. Best used in Dutch East Indies, or Solomons. Reason being, there are plenty of bases (close together), that they can refuel from. Again, the range is VERY short, so you need the hight density of bases (with fuel), so they can hop from base to base.

Use them vs. unescorted convoys or lightly escorted convoys (with say only PCs or PGs). The can nail an AP or two with torps, and run back for more gas and torps. If the convoy is escorted by PCs and PGs, you'll be in for an even-ish fight, but it's worth the risk to go ahead and attack.

If the enemy has DDs or larger in the TF, he's probably going to kill you in short order. Frankly, I don't waste my PTs vs DDs or larger, but you might not have a choice. And if it does come down it (PTs vs. DDs), it is particularly gratifying to put a torp into DD (or if you're very lucky, in a CA). But it might cost you your entire squadron of 6 PTs to do so.

-F-

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 8:21:19 PM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeke

I know I know, I hava a TF of them already, just don't know what job they can do, i sent them out and they always run out of fuel on the way back

PT boats are basically point defense platforms.

The best use for them is to base them in a port that is in danger of bombardment and just keep thme on patrol (NOT docked).

The second best use is to send tthem out to an enemy port within two hexes of their base and tell them to patrol/do not retire. If there is an enemy air threat, better make that within one hex. They will attack any surface force but they are best attacking enemy barge supply runs.

< Message edited by pompack -- 2/22/2005 12:22:19 PM >

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 8:24:15 PM

Feinder

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If you need to move a group of PTs to a base that is out of their range, you can put them in a SC TF with say DD (or include them in a transport TF with a larger ship), and the PTs will refuel of the "mother ship" to make the journey. It'll slow the TF down (it uses ops points to refuel the PTs from the mother ship). But that's the best way to have them cover long distances.

-F-

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 9:04:20 PM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

If you need to move a group of PTs to a base that is out of their range, you can put them in a SC TF with say DD (or include them in a transport TF with a larger ship), and the PTs will refuel of the "mother ship" to make the journey. It'll slow the TF down (it uses ops points to refuel the PTs from the mother ship). But that's the best way to have them cover long distances.

-F-

I use an AK instead of a DD for long transit PT escort. It does not tie up a valuable fleet unit, has more fuel and moves almost as fast (on the average since most of the time is spent refueling the PTs).

(in reply to Feinder)

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 9:14:51 PM

tsimmonds

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So given the fact that PTs burned gasoline, does anyone find this mildly gamey? I might see using a PT tender (then again, I might not, depending on how many turns they would be at sea--remember, these were plywood boats whose hull form was optimized for high speed in relatively calm waters).

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 9:27:03 PM

String

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With the last patch a PT TF usually loses a PT or two vs a superior opponent and then breaks off. I've never seen more than 2 PT's lost. So you can use them to disrupt enemy bombardment TF's

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 9:37:36 PM

Feinder

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Curious how they moved them around historically?

As you point out, the fuel wouldn't be compatable. But did they just load them onto an AK or something else when they wanted to move them somewhere? In-game, we can't "undeploy" them. Whereas historically, I expect they had some way of transporting them long distances (even if broken down into components).

6 in one hand, half-dozen in the other, I expect.

-F-

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 9:47:20 PM

ChezDaJez

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PTs were loaded on the decks of large supply ships and taken to where they were needed. A large ship could carry 4-5 PTs on deck. The game doesn't allow us to do that so the only way to move them around is to put them into a TF with a larger ship.

Historically, PTs were used extensively in coastal waterways and places like the Solomons. Their main function was early warning and barge interdiction. They were never meant to take on the big guys but it did happen on occasion. Patrols were almost always at night. Leave base at dusk, return at dawn.

Most of their bases were very limited in capability (like a lvl 1 port) an would have a small tender in the 500 to 1000 ton range to supply gas and ammo. Torp loading was done by hand and didn't need any fancy equipment once the torp was onboard the PT.

Chez

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 9:50:19 PM

tsimmonds

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quote:

Curious how they moved them around historically?

They loaded them onto LSTs, LSDs....

Attachment (1)

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 10:04:04 PM

tsimmonds

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This is interesting....

Wachapreague (AGP-8), refueling PT-194, 20 October 1944 while enroute from Palau to Leyte Gulf. In October she sailed with her sisters Oyster Bay (AGP-6) and Willoughby (AGP-9), an AVP, and two army craft for Leyte in the Philippines, all escorting a group of 45 PT boats. During the transit Wachapreague refueled underway all 15 of the PT boats assigned to her.

Note that the 3 AGPs are said to be "escorting" the PTs...."shepherding" might be more to the point. This was no combat op, strictly a transit.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 2/22/2005 3:07:26 PM >

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 10:06:39 PM

tsimmonds

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double post

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 2/22/2005 3:08:18 PM >

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 11:48:23 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

If you need to move a group of PTs to a base that is out of their range, you can put them in a SC TF with say DD (or include them in a transport TF with a larger ship), and the PTs will refuel of the "mother ship" to make the journey. It'll slow the TF down (it uses ops points to refuel the PTs from the mother ship). But that's the best way to have them cover long distances.

-F-

I use an AK instead of a DD for long transit PT escort. It does not tie up a valuable fleet unit, has more fuel and moves almost as fast (on the average since most of the time is spent refueling the PTs).

And is more inline with what should be happening. PT boats were lashed onto AK decks and shipped as cargo.

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/22/2005 11:58:46 PM

byron13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

So given the fact that PTs burned gasoline, does anyone find this mildly gamey? I might see using a PT tender (then again, I might not, depending on how many turns they would be at sea--remember, these were plywood boats whose hull form was optimized for high speed in relatively calm waters).

Yes, at least on combat ops. That picture you posted is great!!

The interdiction of barge lanes raised a question in my mind. I'm around December 1, 1942, and am temporarily stymied in the Solomons by Ms. Betty at Rabaul whilst my carriers are playing in the Marshalls. I've got Guadalcanal and the island just below Shortlands (I want to say Buna, but that's not right). I'd love to interdict Shortlands because there's lots there, but then it occurred to me: I've never received a spot report on barges.

Are they reported as AKs or APs through FOW? Or are they only running at night so that I never see them? Are they simply somewhere else like the Philippines?

(in reply to tsimmonds)

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 1:19:58 AM

captskillet

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What Frag said is the way... I just put them in the port I want to defend and put their react range to 1 and they usually will take out some transports if the enemy doesn't have a surface TF(as escort) or air cover to support the landing!

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 1:20:30 AM

Grotius

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If PTs are disbanded in port, don't they form up Surface Combat TFs automatically if enemy surface ships enter that port's hex?

Also, what's the best way to fight PTs? Surface combat TFs dominated by DDs and CLs?

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 2:31:08 AM

eMonticello

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Aside from loading them onto AK, TK, LST, etc., PT-Boat squadrons were occasionally escorted under their own power by AVPs, since they were a natural replenishment vessel for the boats (this was prior to AGPs arriving on the scene). I believe one of the MBT squadrons at Pearl Harbor was escorted to Palmyra by an AVP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

So given the fact that PTs burned gasoline, does anyone find this mildly gamey? I might see using a PT tender (then again, I might not, depending on how many turns they would be at sea--remember, these were plywood boats whose hull form was optimized for high speed in relatively calm waters).

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 2:49:33 AM

Stvitus2002

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I find PT's useful for breaking up weakly protected(AI controlled) invasion TF's. For some reason the AI refuses to provide much in the way of escorts for these TF's.
I have not used them on the offensive yet... One good thing about PT's is that they
are virtually immune to air attack. I have yet to see the AI set any aircraft to an
altitude of 100FT & go after my PT's. In one early war encounter, I has a 8 boat PT
TF set to reaction range 2 while at balikpapan. Kido Butai decided to pass by & was intercepted by PT's. My boats only suffered 1 hit,but somehow managed to put a
MK8 torpedo into Zuikaku. This was under version 1.0,things might have changed since.

Joe D.

(in reply to eMonticello)

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 8:03:42 AM

bradfordkay

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In my latest game I had a TF with four Dutch PTS in Kuching, as this is usually an early invasion site. This time the AI made no moves on Kuching for a very long time. In late January, it sent a TF with one TK and two DDs through Kuching (covered by Zeros from the baby KB), to which my TF reacted. With the surviving PTs out of torpedoes, I had to send them back to Surabaya for rearming. It was then that the AI sent its invasion force. I don't know if the TK TF was a deliberate decoy created by the AI, but that was its effect.

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 8:10:51 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

In my latest game I had a TF with four Dutch PTS in Kuching, as this is usually an early invasion site. This time the AI made no moves on Kuching for a very long time. In late January, it sent a TF with one TK and two DDs through Kuching (covered by Zeros from the baby KB), to which my TF reacted. With the surviving PTs out of torpedoes, I had to send them back to Surabaya for rearming. It was then that the AI sent its invasion force. I don't know if the TK TF was a deliberate decoy created by the AI, but that was its effect.

Personally I believe the AI "knows" of any threats and behaves accordingly. Ever notice that you can have CAP over a port almost all the time but the turn you move or stand down the fighters the AI arrives overhead!?

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 8:16:23 AM

Tankerace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Personally I believe the AI "knows" of any threats and behaves accordingly. Ever notice that you can have CAP over a port almost all the time but the turn you move or stand down the fighters the AI arrives overhead!?

Tell that to the smoking hulks of 88 unescorted Bettys that are now litering PM. 150 P-40Bs, Es, P-39s, and P-38s baby. Boo-yah!

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 8:29:35 AM

Stvitus2002

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quote:

Personally I believe the AI "knows" of any threats and behaves accordingly. Ever notice that you can have CAP over a port almost all the time but the turn you move or stand down the fighters the AI arrives overhead!?

You make a good point. I recently had 5 dutch subs at diamond harbor,undergoing
minor repairs. The port was guarded by 2 squadrons of hurries which i decided to upgrade to spit V's. I upgraded both Squadrons on the same turn

,and ,you
guessed it, the AI decides to raid diamond harbor with 40 betty's. All of my spits were damaged, so the raid was unopposed. One sub was sunk immediately(by 800KG bombs). 2 others were crippled, 2 got away. Those japanese spies in Diamond harbor certainly
earned their pay that day.

Joe D.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 7:40:38 PM

panda124c

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Speed Bumps

Slows down a bombardment fleet so at day break it's still in range of LBA.

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 7:59:55 PM

Tom Hunter

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I use mine to carpet the bottom of the ocean so my heavy ships will have a nice squishy PT boat to land on when they get sunk by Blackwatch's Betties.

< Message edited by Tom Hunter -- 2/23/2005 6:00:05 PM >

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 8:14:49 PM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

In my latest game I had a TF with four Dutch PTS in Kuching, as this is usually an early invasion site. This time the AI made no moves on Kuching for a very long time. In late January, it sent a TF with one TK and two DDs through Kuching (covered by Zeros from the baby KB), to which my TF reacted. With the surviving PTs out of torpedoes, I had to send them back to Surabaya for rearming. It was then that the AI sent its invasion force. I don't know if the TK TF was a deliberate decoy created by the AI, but that was its effect.

Personally I believe the AI "knows" of any threats and behaves accordingly. Ever notice that you can have CAP over a port almost all the time but the turn you move or stand down the fighters the AI arrives overhead!?

Maybe that is true to a limited degre, but from what I've seen of the AI trying to bomb one of my invasions it's not true. I raked up all kinds of kills (over 50) with my Oscars flying LRCAP for the site. They finally pretty muich stopped doing it. It looked like they decided they were better of dispersing somewhat and trying to hit a more targets with fewer planes than to throw so much at Khota Baru. Even in these circumstances where he's not bombing the same targets every turn, for the most part he's still running into some kind of CAP. What may be happenign when they seemingly cheat, is that they have identified those who have been putting up some resistance and then figure somehow when they swicthed over to another type of weapon or left the area that there is no more opposition.

I guess one way you could experiment with that, is save the game before you ordered planes or ships out of the area. Then play as you would and note the results. Then load the original turn back up and order the same thing, say with evacuating planes that had been flying CAP, and order a nearby CV group to hurry into the hex that was probably undetected before that (which of course would mean that it too wasn't covering that area beforehand) and tell it to cover the CV TF as it goes.

OTOH, you could just pull out the old CAP planes (or upgrade them), and transfer some new ones in and see what happens. Of course such experimentation is much easier when the question deals with tranferring planes rather than ships.

If you're sending ships in, I'm never sure if the movement of the ships comes first or the air phase. I also wonder if there are squadrons when on naval attack if they will attack shipping on the hexes inbetween the TF's starting point and destination, or just the starting or ending point.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

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RE: how do you use PT? - 2/23/2005 8:25:30 PM

Mr.Frag

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The routines that govern bombers flying basically check for the right amount of escort for expected cap.

This check works for both sides (AI & player) but is not 100% accurate.

Additionally, in order to deal with late war scenarios where the Allies can put up walls of nearly 1000 fighters, the rule had to be bent a little. As long as there is *some* escort allocated, the bombers will go, even if it is to a certain death.

Without this, Japan's aircraft would simply stop flying completely.

(in reply to Charles2222)

Post #: 30