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WW2 Soviet songs - 3/6/2005 10:39:02 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline 		For those (like me) who like a little atmospheric music with their wargames, take a look HERE .

Some good stuff (in .wav format) for next time you play the Russians in KP The whole site is worth a browse while you are at it.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 3/6/2005 8:40:57 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/7/2005 5:01:26 PM   
ShermanM4


Posts: 298
Joined: 7/14/2003
Status: offline 		Good site! Thanks for the post. Does anybody feel as meloncholy as I do about the way things worked out on the East Front? When I consider the horrors the Germans inflicted upon the Russians, I find myself also looking at the horrors inflicted upon the Germans by the Russians. Though, I am glad that war came to end with the defeat of Nazi Germany. I find myself never feeling any excitement about the prospect that "Uncle Joe" won. I don't think this is a case of finding the lesser of two evils. Had the Germans won, I heard that Hitler wanted to turn Moscow into a reservoir, and surely, more death camps would have been established. Also, I find myself thinking of, the Polish Elections, Hungary '56 and Czecloslovakia '68 these were not good either. The Cold War was not good either, but I am glad to see that the Soviets never lost their cool and launched nuclear missles. Does anybody else feel this way?

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RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/9/2005 2:16:14 AM   
gunnergoz


Posts: 447
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline 		Well, there wouldn't have been any "Russians inflicting horrors on Germans" if the Germans had stayed home, would there?

Come into my home uninvited and you'll get what you deserve...

And yes, I agree that it's great that the Soviets kept their cool and their fingers off the nuclear trigger. Now that I know some Russians and have heard their side, I'm appreciative of just how worried they were about US in the West doing the same to them.

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...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
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RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/9/2005 4:05:49 AM   
freeboy

 

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From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

Come into my home uninvited and you'll get what you deserve...

Sorry mate, the Rape of Berlin is most unexcusable.. regadless any war attrocity, there where those from all sides in WW2, are all offenses that should be punished and not just at the private level, generals and high ranking official as well....

(in reply to gunnergoz)
Post #: 4
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/9/2005 7:16:43 AM   
Jane Doe

 

Posts: 322
Joined: 4/16/2003
Status: offline 		The «rape of Berlin» is as you say inexcusable, but quite understandable.

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RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/10/2005 12:39:41 AM   
testarossa


Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		What is the "rape of Berlin"? Wasn't it turned in to fortress and endured 1 week of fierce house to house close quarters fighting?

< Message edited by testarossa -- 3/9/2005 2:40:27 PM >

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RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/10/2005 2:47:29 AM   
ShermanM4


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quote:

What is the "rape of Berlin"? Wasn't it turned in to fortress and endured 1 week of fierce house to house close quarters fighting?


Well, the Rape of Berlin is generally a reference between the time the Germans surrendered and when the American, British and French arrived in Western Berlin. Essentially, the Soviets made sure that almost every act brutality the Germans committed against them earlier in the war was paid back in full with interrest.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say I am glad that Nazi Germany was defeated. The point I was trying to make was how do two wrongs make a right? I don't find anything wrong with the Soviet Union defeating the Germans and taking the fight to downtown Berlin to do it. I am saying I find it very sad that all of these other people like the Poles, Czech, and the Hungarians to name only a few were essentially screwed beacause they became the hub of the Soviet empire in Europe. The way things turned out in the east seem to be an unimaginable nightmare. I do not equate all Russians with Stalin because most of humanity was nothing like him. The Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe seems to be just as bad as the Nazi occupation of Eastern Europe.

quote:

And yes, I agree that it's great that the Soviets kept their cool and their fingers off the nuclear trigger. Now that I know some Russians and have heard their side, I'm appreciative of just how worried they were about US in the West doing the same to them.


True, of all the Presidents that I can see actually nuking Russia was probably Regan. Kennedy would be in second because of the Cuban Missle Crisis. Eisenhower in third because of Korea and Stalin. All the rest I think did not want to touch that thing with a ten-foot pole.

_____________________________


"Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages."

~General George Washington


(in reply to testarossa)
Post #: 7
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 12:12:11 AM   
Agent Smith


Posts: 68
Joined: 1/27/2005
Status: offline 		"The rape of Berlin" is a Cold War time Western propoganda fiction. There were some criminals and thugs in ranks of Soviet Army of course. There were punished by military courts with full force of war time laws. There are a lot of orders ensuring correct treatment of German civilian population. I can link them if anyone interested and translate some excerpts.
By the way Eastern European countries were not occupaid by USSR. There were independent countries under Soviet influence (like a lot of countries under USA influence).

(in reply to ShermanM4)
Post #: 8
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 1:00:00 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		sure, and my name is johnson and its a bit long don't you think? I KNOW poeple from the rape days, and the Army under ? was is Zhuckov, had a three day "party" where men weman aand childeren where systematicaly raped. Theose independ countries.. what a laugh, that is like calling a prisoner in the jail an free body because we let him think freely

< Message edited by freeboy -- 3/11/2005 7:00:48 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 2:39:24 AM   
ShermanM4


Posts: 298
Joined: 7/14/2003
Status: offline
quote:

There were independent countries under Soviet influence (like a lot of countries under USA influence).


If these countries were not occupied and were only Satelite Soviet Republics with out any direct influence, control, or authoritarian coersion from Moscow then how do you explain this stuff from my original post?

quote:

Also, I find myself thinking of the Polish Elections, Hungary '56 and Czecloslovakia '68 these were not good either.


_____________________________


"Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages."

~General George Washington


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Post #: 10
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 2:53:19 AM   
testarossa


Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		I wander how did they rape men in 1945? And kids? Where they all pedofiles or just hungry for some sex?

< Message edited by testarossa -- 3/10/2005 4:54:25 PM >

_____________________________

Dr. Miller: I should've called the marines!
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RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 8:05:22 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		kids and men,???? do you really want to know.. it is de-humanising and gross.. it is a barbaric act of cruelty ...

sorry but this thread really has set me off and I in no way see any acts that where done by the Germans or the JApanees as less barbaric than these, Just someone saying that any act against anouther human that is willfully done to destroy the person outside the conflict, to de-huminse and humiliate /degrade is beyond sick.. no justification, no Pearl harber or Nazi atrocity or 9-11 ever justifies another human being crueal and barbaric....

Did the Germans reap what they sowed? That is another issue, and not a justification for evil....

< Message edited by freeboy -- 3/11/2005 10:08:06 PM >

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RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 10:07:11 AM   
Agent Smith


Posts: 68
Joined: 1/27/2005
Status: offline 		1. I can see no proofs of you charges against Soviet Army. You said you know some of the victims personally. Did they give any written testimonies? Can you link it? I do not deny that some Germans were victims of soviet war crimes. I deny that they were "systematicaly raped" by soviet soldiers and that soviet command tolerated and even encourge such behavior.

< Message edited by Agent Smith -- 3/11/2005 8:09:16 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 12:40:14 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline 		14 560 000 civilians slaughtered by Germans according Nazi “humanistic” and absolutely non barbaric program of depopulation of Russia, which of course was nothing in comparison to so-called rape of Berlin. Nazi manufacturing of soap from human fat and tanning of human skin, usage of human beings as raw material is not barbaric too? Yes that was quite rational move, logic of industrial age. In just 3 months in 1938 Japanese army in Nanking slaughtered over 370 000 Chinese civilians, 80 000 women were raped then mutilated or murdered, but this act also cannot be compared to so called rape of Berlin and from some point it’s excusable, who cares about Chinese after all? Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden… destruction of cities and towns without military necessity are not barbaric as well, since from that altitude you can’t see $hit!

I have no love for communism, Stalin regime was diabolic indeed, but I don’t think that atrocities committed by Soviet troops in Germany was the ugliest thing done during that war. I know only one book in English that covers this subject in detail – “Berlin. Downfall” the only problem is that author uses such reliable sources as unpublished diaries, Soviet archive documents with false register numbers and so on. H

“Germans brought the doomed people to the place of execution, forced them to dig a ditch, and ordered them to undress and to lie down in the ditch, face downward. Germans fired at the back of the necks of the victims with automatic pistols. Then another group of people lay down on top of the bodies of those shot and were finished off in the same manner, and then a third row, and so on until the ditch was filled. Then they poured quicklime over the corpses and covered them with earth…
…then we saw how a party consisting of a Russian woman and three children, aged from three to eight years, were led to an open grave about two metres wide and eight metres long. The woman was forced to descend into this grave and took the youngest child with her in her arms. Two SS soldiers, members of the punitive expedition, handed the other two children to her. The woman was forced to lie, face down, in the grave and beside her three children, in the same manner, on her left. After that, four men of the detachment also climbed down into the grave and aimed their guns so that the barrels were about 30 centimetres away from the napes of their necks. Thus they shot the woman and her three children.”

[edited by admin]

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
I in no way see any acts that where done by the Germans or the JApanees as someless barbaric than these


< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 3/11/2005 7:44:33 PM >

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 14
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 2:45:19 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		No photos of carnage, bodies or anything else that is not intended for minors. We have asked for this quite some times.

Unless you want to go on a two weeks vacation.

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Post #: 15
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 4:15:18 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Not someless.. less.. My point exactly.. the Barberism BY ALL SIDES WAS that terrible and in-HUMANE.
The suffering of innocents, weather they be raped tortured , slaughtered etc... in this century greatly outnumbers those of the past.. from every corner of the world... but I do think we agree, and I am no excuser of the Nazi who slaughtered Jews, Gypsies, ouspoken Christians, homosexuals, the physically handicaped etc...

My point is symply that I cannot find one evil action, lets take the 9-11 terrorist.. I know it is not the same as done outside of war, but humer me for the sake of my example... The 9-11 terrorist give no one, including my country the right or justification to de humanise and wholesale target groups out of a spirit of revenge....

The moral issues get grayer with the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo, the atom bombings etc.... Much different the civilail rape and torture.... and execution..
hope this makes my thoughts on these horrers clearer, and perhaps some saw my thread as anti soviet.. without the great victory in the east the western front would have been much different...

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 16
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 10:34:50 PM   
testarossa


Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		I don’t think that demonasing Germans or Russians as nations has any grounds.

There were individuals and groups and orders to commit atrocities. There were official policies how to treat local population. But I strongly believe that majority of normal people would not commit any atrocities. This is just against human nature. People taken from their wives and kids would not kill other kids and wives unless given direct order.

Both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia had special services and detachments and places manned by specially trained and conditioned people up for the task. Nazis had a racial doctrine, commies had a political one. What’s the difference?

Behind the advancing German troops SS zondercommandos were killing Jews and communists. Behind advancing Soviet troops NKVD were killing collaborators and socially unreliable elements (teachers, businessmen etc.). Any difference here?

So Germans created death camps. Russians just put thousand of civilians from Eastern Europe on the train and shipped them to Siberia without clothes, water and food. Many arrived dead. The reest were put in the wilderness and left there to built their new homes. What’s the difference again?

The only problem I see that Germany became a democratic country, and Russia still remains a communist dictatorship.

Russia refuses to admit the Katin massacre and bring war criminals to trial, refuses to admit the guilt for occupation of Baltic states, massacre of Budapest in 1956 and Prague in 1968 and keeps stating that it was OK.

_____________________________

Dr. Miller: I should've called the marines!
Dalton: They're few, they're proud... And they ain't here!!!


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Post #: 17
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/11/2005 11:53:44 PM   
benpark

 

Posts: 3884
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Status: offline 		This thread should be submitted to both the "Off Topic" and "Grammatical Hell" Hall of Shame.

< Message edited by benpark -- 3/11/2005 4:54:47 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/12/2005 2:11:43 AM   
Agent Smith


Posts: 68
Joined: 1/27/2005
Status: offline 		To Benpark.

I am Russian. English is not my native language. I am sorry for my mistakes.

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 19
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/12/2005 4:13:34 AM   
benpark

 

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Status: offline 		You are off the hook for the Grammar part of the competition(unless you wish to be considered for "Best Foriegn Language Posting in an English Speaking Category"), you will however be submitted to the "OT" category jury for voting.

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Post #: 20
RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/12/2005 5:15:46 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		You know guys, you should have been raised in Germany or Russia, and nobody (with the exception of some really dumb nuts) of you would do these silly "maths" games. I for myself am very proud of the fact that despite of all the bad and unbelievable things (wittnesed by family members) russian people and german people went through in WW2, we can gather ( in these days, 60 years after it) at a table and have good food and drinks. Without any discussions coming up. Should make you think!

Nobody of both parties forgets about what happend but somehow after all these years everybody can "live with it" and knows that these times are an example to humankind, an example one should learn of and try its best that they never happen again.

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 3/12/2005 10:16:38 AM >

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RE: WW2 Soviet songs - 3/12/2005 11:14:12 AM   
Agent Smith


Posts: 68
Joined: 1/27/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, Marc I agree with you completly.

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 22
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