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why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 1:33:30 AM   
Zeke

 

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Status: offline 		that is not fair
Post #: 1
RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 1:35:24 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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Status: offline 		Its also pretty crummy that they dont get the A-bomb or B-29 upgrades. That just sucks.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 1:41:21 AM   
freeboy

 

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Status: offline 		Or essex carriers with well trained pilots and 250 dd able to attack subs

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 2:13:50 AM   
Zeta16


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Or essex carriers with well trained pilots and 250 dd able to attack subs



I don't need 250 DD's to kill subs.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 2:19:50 AM   
LittleJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeke

that is not fair


Dont they have a couple on that island imbeteewn Indochina and China, where the paratroopers start.

Not really somthing i get horribly upset about being a Jap player, got more annoying things to worry about.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 2:28:02 AM   
Drex

 

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Status: offline 		What are gyoraitai? They are classed as PTs. Not as many as US but it would be interesting to pit one against the other.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 2:28:24 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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Status: offline 		They start the game with half a dozen, but they don't produce any during the war.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 2:29:16 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

What are gyoraitai? They are classed as PTs. Not as many as US but it would be interesting to pit one against the other.


Arnt those classes as barges also?

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 2:33:28 AM   
Drex

 

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Status: offline 		i thought barges were AGs. However even barges were armored and armed b ut of course slow.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 2:45:09 AM   
Don Bowen


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Status: offline 		Japan completed at least 248 Motor Torpedo Boats during the war - 49 known lost and 199 surrendered. Most were smaller than US boats and had inferior performance, with most classes having speeds well under 30 knots.

The best boats were the T-14 and T-15 types which began to come into service in 1944. These were about 50 feet in length, 33-35 knots, and armed with two 18-inch torpedoes. US boats were 78-80 feet, are listed at speeds of around 40 knots, and were generally armed with 4 21-inch torpedoes.

The Japanese did not use their boats as aggressively as the Americans did and there is very little mention of them in the history books. We originally had about 50 in the Combined Historical Scenario but removed them so we could use the “slots” for more useful ships.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 2:50:44 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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Status: offline 		Oh, thanks Don. However, I'm still ticked that the Japanese don't get proximity fuses.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 2:55:07 AM   
Platoonist


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Status: offline 		In their infinite zeal for miniaturization the Japanese prepared upwards of 6,000 of those one man suicide 'Shinyo' boats for the final defense of the Home Islands but no Allied ship was seriously damaged by them.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 3:20:22 AM   
Tiornu

 

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Status: offline 		japanese mtbs must rank as the worst of their type in wwii. the designs showed little advance over the old cmbs, and the lack of engines crippled the program.
the ijn convinced itself that mtbs were a great asw platform, which actually was one of the jobs they were worst at.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 3:28:25 AM   
Tom Hunter


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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 3:58:06 AM   
freeboy

 

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quote:

I don't need 250 DD's to kill subs.


OK, you need 350 dd you are not killing too many, most are going back to wake/pearl other for refitts..

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 5:59:53 AM   
Tristanjohn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Japan completed at least 248 Motor Torpedo Boats during the war - 49 known lost and 199 surrendered. Most were smaller than US boats and had inferior performance, with most classes having speeds well under 30 knots.

The best boats were the T-14 and T-15 types which began to come into service in 1944. These were about 50 feet in length, 33-35 knots, and armed with two 18-inch torpedoes. US boats were 78-80 feet, are listed at speeds of around 40 knots, and were generally armed with 4 21-inch torpedoes.

The Japanese did not use their boats as aggressively as the Americans did and there is very little mention of them in the history books. We originally had about 50 in the Combined Historical Scenario but removed them so we could use the “slots” for more useful ships.


These were changed to the much better aerial brand eventually. Is that implemented in WitP?

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 6:56:20 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 7:19:16 AM   
Tristanjohn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Bet'cha its not.


Betcha you're right.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 10:55:54 AM   
Herrbear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Bet'cha its not.


Actually they do, at least the Elco 80 footers. They change from the 21 inch Mark 8 to the 22 inch Mark 13.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 11:36:50 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Oh, thanks Don. However, I'm still ticked that the Japanese don't get proximity fuses.


They couldn't produce a decent infantry rifle, or a good MG. Their artillery sucked, and
so did their tanks. Did you really expect them to master the proximity fuze? Or are
you just speaking tongue-in-cheek?

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 12:49:06 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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Status: offline 		The latter. Heck, they couldnt come up with a decent sonar or anything approaching a good areal radar or fire control the prox fuse would be a little outside expectation. When they said they fought with spirit against technology, they wern't kidding.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 6:56:24 PM   
pad152

 

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quote:

The Japanese did not use their boats as aggressively as the Americans did and there is very little mention of them in the history books. We originally had about 50 in the Combined Historical Scenario but removed them so we could use the “slots” for more useful ships.


Don

There are still a lot of free slots (2900 - 2999) for Japanese ships, just what are they being saved for?

How about posting the data for the different Motor Torpedo Boats that were removed!

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 7:00:33 PM   
tsimmonds


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quote:

There are still a lot of free slots (2900 - 2999) for Japanese ships, just what are they being saved for?

Being saved for Brady's midget subs and for Shinyos?

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 7:17:22 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

quote:

The Japanese did not use their boats as aggressively as the Americans did and there is very little mention of them in the history books. We originally had about 50 in the Combined Historical Scenario but removed them so we could use the “slots” for more useful ships.


Don

There are still a lot of free slots (2900 - 2999) for Japanese ships, just what are they being saved for?

How about posting the data for the different Motor Torpedo Boats that were removed!


I think your "slot" information is a little out of date:




Attachment (1)

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 7:22:56 PM   
m10bob


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Status: offline 		Using the Ian Allen book as a referance,(Japanese Warships of WW2 by Anthony J Watts),I believe Don is referring mostly to the Japanese "Type T-36",which was apparently the most numerous built of the MTB's built by Japan,(and this book sez all of their MTB's were based on a captured Thorneycroft boat)
The Type T-36 was 23 1/2 tons,59 ft long,2 petrol motors,speed 21 knots,1x13mm or 1x25mm AA gun,2x18in torps,with a crew of 7 men..used numbers 411-450,and 470-473..
The Type T-14 were 15 tons,49 ft long,1 motor ,speed 33 knots(!),1x25mm AA gun,2x18in torps,2 DP launchers..Used numbers 538-555 and 839-848,871-889...
The book lists several other models,but these were the most prolific....
Found this info on page 293,this issue printed 1978....

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 8:01:09 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Oh, thanks Don. However, I'm still ticked that the Japanese don't get proximity fuses.


They couldn't produce a decent infantry rifle, or a good MG. Their artillery sucked, and
so did their tanks. Did you really expect them to master the proximity fuze? Or are
you just speaking tongue-in-cheek?


According to Hara in his book, in his death ride with the Yamato, his CL Yahagi was armed with homing torpedoes, and had proximity fuzes and radar controlled guns (p. 272 Ballantine Books edition.) They also were equipped with bayonets for their eventual beaching off Okinawa so they could stab Americans. Of course, they never made it that far...

BTW, Hara was in charge of training IJN PT forces between his assignment to Shigure and Yahagi. He said [despite whatever the designers had planned] "Insofar as I know, only 200 or so boats, ranging from 15 to 30 tons, were produced under emergency wartime program beginning in 1943." [I am not sure if this is what he had before he transferred out- RT]. "All were equipped with aircraft engines, and none could make better than 25 kts. Their V-shaped hulls of wood or steel were 45 to 55 feet overall. Manned by a crew of seven, these boats were armed with two small torpedoes and one 13-mm machine gun. But none ever came up to the standards I would have desired." [p261]. After testing the first of these, he said "This is no torpedo boat. It is nothing but a barge. This scow would be of no real value in a fight"".

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 3/13/2005 2:59:35 PM >

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 8:53:56 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Oh, thanks Don. However, I'm still ticked that the Japanese don't get proximity fuses.


They couldn't produce a decent infantry rifle, or a good MG. Their artillery sucked, and
so did their tanks. Did you really expect them to master the proximity fuze? Or are
you just speaking tongue-in-cheek?


According to Hara in his book, in his death ride with the Yamato, his CL Yahagi was armed with homing torpedoes, and had proximity fuzes and radar controlled guns (p. 272 Ballantine Books edition.) They also were equipped with bayonets for their eventual beaching off Okinawa so they could stab Americans. Of course, they never made it that far...

BTW, Hara was in charge of training IJN PT forces between his assignment to Shigure and Yahagi. He said [despite whatever the designers had planned] "Insofar as I know, only 200 or so boats, ranging from 15 to 30 tons, were produced under emergency wartime program beginning in 1943." [I am not sure if this is what he had before he transferred out- RT]. "All were equipped with aircraft engines, and none could make better than 25 kts. Their V-shaped hulls of wood or steel were 45 to 55 feet overall. Manned by a crew of seven, these boats were armed with two small torpedoes and one 13-mm machine gun. But none ever came up to the standards I would have desired." [p261]. After testing the first of these, he said "This is no torpedo boat. It is nothing but a barge. This scow would be of no real value in a fight"".

Yep....That pretty much matches that Ian Allen book,but the start dates for the Type 36 were a little earlier......

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 10:25:17 PM   
Tiornu

 

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Status: offline 		the japanese did have a proximity fuze. one proximity fuze. that is, a single proximity fuze was used in combat. however, it was photo-electric rather than radio, and it was not rugged. it was installed in a bomb dropped on an airfield near war's end. it worked perfectly.
there were no japanese rugged proximity fuzes, so capt hara must be mistaken.
japan got its first mtbs in 1920--four boats purchased from thornycroft. apparently they failed to impress because nothing further was done for twenty years. in 1940, the italian-built h-1 type boat (in japan, h is for mgb and t is for mtb) ran trials with a pair of captured chinese boats (probably wwi leftovers of the italian mas-218 type) and a homegrown 19-ton prototype. the initial conquest of 1941-42 earned a new crop of dutch boats, plus the filipino q111. of all these boats, only this last was more than 20 tons. the japanese made a single attempt to build large boats; these were a knockoff of german s-boats, and they were as bad as any cheap knockoff could be.
the main line of mtb construction centered on the t-1 specification of 20 tons. however, there was not just a single t-1 class, as the scramble for engines led to numerous variants. so when you see classes named t-23 up to t-39, mostly you're just looking at different engines. (t-23 had a top speed of 17 knots.) when you see a figure of 238 mtbs completed by the japanese, it's in reference to this series.
there were also two smaller designs, about 15 tons. and there were more than a hundred h-type boats, plus t-types completed as simple launches. the h-boats could carry torpedoes.

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/13/2005 11:42:14 PM   
pad152

 

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quote:

I think your "slot" information is a little out of date:


Not for Scenario #15, using version 1.4!

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RE: why IJN had no PT Boats? - 3/14/2005 2:32:26 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

there were no japanese rugged proximity fuzes, so capt hara must be mistaken.


Reviewed stuff on the web, and as far as i can tell, you are correct in this. No indication of proximity fuzes for the IJN.

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