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Microsoft Case Study - 3/16/2005 6:36:46 PM

mbelew

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If you aren't a programmer, you can probably just skip this.

The article is mostly MS praising itself for a job well done, while outlining the reason TS: ATG and TS:JC are using .Net in its core engine. I want to underline that .Net with Managed DirectX helped us to make a stable game fairly quickly. If you are into game programming, don't discount .Net as a possible development platform. In short: I'm sold on game programming in .Net.

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/CaseStudy.asp?CaseStudyID=16499

Post #: 1

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 3/17/2005 2:49:02 AM

Fred98

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Can .NET be used on other platforms? X-Box? Mac?

If a game could be released on other platforms then untimately sales increase.

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RE: Microsoft Case Study - 3/17/2005 7:49:39 AM

mbelew

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
Can .NET be used on other platforms? X-Box? Mac?

Nope. I wish!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
If a game could be released on other platforms then untimately sales increase.

True. When we were making the decision about a language, we knew our game would probably not be appropriate for a console. Mac and Linux users might bring in a few more sales, but no one at Koios has exprience on these platforms. We all felt that .Net would give us greater speed to market.

It absolutely has. Likewise, you should see how fast TS:JC is coming along.

(in reply to Fred98)

Post #: 3

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 3/17/2005 7:58:44 AM

Bodhi

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Interesting link, thanks for posting. I've also thought that the .NET framework may be suitable for some types of wargames: nice to see I wasn't alone.

Almost tempted me to get TS:ATG just to see what's possible.

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Post #: 4

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 4/9/2005 5:47:01 AM

johnasl

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As a long time Matix supporter, wargaming enthusiast, and application developer, I'm feeling real good that Managed DirectX (.NET) will give us even more, and improved, gaming options within our limited community.

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Post #: 5

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 4/9/2005 3:29:13 PM

Sonny

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.NET is definitely suitable for games as long as speed is not a critical factor.

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Post #: 6

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 4/11/2005 10:13:20 PM

Deride

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny
.NET is definitely suitable for games as long as speed is not a critical factor.

Sonny,

The biggest issue with using .NET is not speed -- its portability. .NET games can not run on XBox, PS2, PSP, cell phones, etc.

.NET, academcially at least, has been shown to run a 98% the speed of a purely native DirectX application. So, if my computer is showing 40 FPS for Doom III, a .NET version of DOOM III could, theoretically, run at 39.2 FPS.

Deride

(in reply to Sonny)

Post #: 7

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 9:09:50 AM

mogami

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Hi, I installed JC to my machine and it killed it. I keep getting direct link libary errors and I can't open my outlook express. My media player does not work and I can't reinstall windows because it crashes. I am going to have to reformat my drive and start over. The problem all began when the installer decided my .net files were old and installed newer ones. After that my machine would not boot and when I finally got it to safe mode it said I had to reinstall windows (but that crashes everytime I try because of bad files)
This might be a good system for newer machines but for older ones..... look out.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/11/2005 9:14:44 AM >

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RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 4:36:23 PM

Deride

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Mogami,

The Microsoft .NET files are an operating system patch, so they can lead to all sorts of potential issues. However, a reformat does not seem like it should be necessary.

What version of Windows are you currently running? Have you used Windows update to keep all files recent? (Microsoft .NET is part of Windows update, so if you are maintaining your machine often, you likely already had them installed.)

Deride

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 9

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 4:42:07 PM

Erik Rutins

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Good grief, Mogami. Very sorry to hear that but this is the first such report we've ever seen and that includes people installing on older operating systems. It sounds like something may have been pretty messed up with your DirectX installation to begin with as the .NET installation is direct from Microsoft and not something we cooked up.

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Post #: 10

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 5:05:37 PM

Oznoyng

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What makes .NET better for game development?

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Post #: 11

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 5:38:21 PM

mogami

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deride

Mogami,

The Microsoft .NET files are an operating system patch, so they can lead to all sorts of potential issues. However, a reformat does not seem like it should be necessary.

What version of Windows are you currently running? Have you used Windows update to keep all files recent? (Microsoft .NET is part of Windows update, so if you are maintaining your machine often, you likely already had them installed.)

Deride

Hi, I am running Windows ME My Directx was off Highway to the Riech disk and I installed all the windows ME updates I could find.
When I installed JC it promted me that it was going to up date my .net files.
My machine has had problems ever since.
Missing DLL files, There is no longer a "display setting" option in my control panel, I've lost the abilty to unzip compressed files. I can't open outlook.

winspooldrv (Where does it go?)(it is missing)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/11/2005 5:40:01 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 5:49:23 PM

Oznoyng

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On my XP Home installation, those files are in the C:\Windows\system and C:\Windows\System32 directories.

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Post #: 13

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 5:56:27 PM

mogami

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Hi, OK how do I put it back?

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Post #: 14

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 5:58:36 PM

Deride

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
What makes .NET better for game development?

My response is going to be opinion, so others may disagree.

First, .NET is a managed environment. That means that you don't have to worry about memory management the way you do for games written in C++. This leads to a more stable game, or, at least, a stable game written with less work for ensuring memory stabilitiy. (For anyone in the know, this is basically pointers vs. no pointers.)

Second, .NET has a large collection of built in libraries for handling XML manipulation, collections, TCP/IP communications, etc. While many of these are available in C++, they aren't as robust, don't have nearly as much documentation, and are as standardized.

Third, the Managed DirectX library itself is extremely clean and easy to work woth. Tom Miller (project manager at Microsoft), ensured that the Managed API was simpler to use, and he met his goals.

Deride

(in reply to Oznoyng)

Post #: 15

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 6:03:54 PM

Deride

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Hi, OK how do I put it back?

Found this on the web, hopefuly it can help:

Winspool.drv is contained in WIN_16.CAB of the Win Me cab set and can be
replaced by booting to Safe Mode and using MSConfig | General | Extract File
and following the prompts. The "cab" files are in the Win9x folder on the
Win Me CD and/or in a sub-folder of Windows\Options.

See MS KB 265371 - "How to Extract and Replace a Protected File in Windows Me" http://support.microsoft.com?kbid=265371 for details of how to extract files
from the cab set.

Winspool.drv belongs in the windows\system folder.

Deride

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 16

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 6:55:26 PM

Erik Rutins

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Russ,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Hi, I am running Windows ME My Directx was off Highway to the Riech disk and I installed all the windows ME updates I could find.
When I installed JC it promted me that it was going to up date my .net files.
My machine has had problems ever since.
Missing DLL files, There is no longer a "display setting" option in my control panel, I've lost the abilty to unzip compressed files. I can't open outlook.

Sounds like you are not sure what version you had before installing TS:JC. Are you able to login to Windows Update at all (windowsupdate.microsoft.com) and see if your system is missing any updates, such as DirectX 9.0c for running TS:JC? Try letting it install all critical and recommended updates and see if that helps at all. You might need to uninstall and reinstall TS:JC afterwards to see if that helps as well with getting .NET straightened out.

If you were missing critical system updates before installing TS:JC, I guess I could imagine a conflict but honestly I haven't seen anything like this before and whatever happened is buried within Microsoft's installer, which we just use.

Did you have a virus checker running while you installed or did you turn it off first?

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 17

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 7:30:16 PM

mogami

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Hi, I had all updates installed prior to loading JC. However currently I get an error when going to that page. I think the last Directx from Windows was 9c
Was able to get Winspool.drv back thanks to advise however I still can't get Outlook Express to open. Even though the file it can't find MSOERES.DLL is right there in the Outlook Express folder. I have a lot of DLL issues right now.
WITP is running again (but showing version 1.40)
I now have an error with serial number as entered with Crown of Glory.
Gates of Troy serial number invalid.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/11/2005 7:41:06 PM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 8:46:11 PM

Erik Rutins

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Russ,

Nothing in the JC installer should have anything to do with that or the DLLs you mention. I have to assume that there was some kind of catastrophic collision between programs here. Nothing in the JC installer touches your Outlook, Print Spooler or other DLLs. Nor does it mess with your registry or other serial numbers.

My next question would be to try to trace your steps back precisely. What exactly happened when the installer ran, any error messages? Any problems at that point?

When did you first notice a problem, right after the last installer screen? After the next reboot?

What was that problem - or more precisely, exactly which problems do you know happened right after the JC install and before you did any troubleshooting?

What were your exact steps in terms of what you tried to do to resolve the problem? Did more error messages start appearing after any of these steps? If you already tried to partially reinstall Windows ME (sounds like you might have above) but aborted the reinstallation that could cause catastrophic damage that would necessitate a full wipe and reinstall.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 19

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 10:45:52 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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Hi, My problems began right after the install program said it was going to update my net files. When computer rebooted it never made it back to desktop. (Just sat there cooking popcorn for 2 hours.) The next message I got was I needed to reinstall ME. (after going to safe mode)
I was able to find a restore point that allowed me to at least get on the internet.

ME reinstall was not aborted it crashed. (I think I am going to have to do a clean reinstall)
Is Winspool.drv my print spooler? Why do so many programs look for it before loading.

It's not hard for me to connect the program to the problem. I was watching "History Travel" Roman invasion of Brtian. I decided to install JC.........

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/11/2005 10:47:41 PM >

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 20

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 11:10:34 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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Russ,

Don't know what to tell you on this - it has installed fine for others with Windows ME and the installer definitely doesn't do this. This is the only report like this we've _ever_ had.

I don't know what happened, perhaps Microsoft could sort it out but I definitely can't make any sense of it without another program like a virus checker interfering in some disastrous way while system files were being touched.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 7/11/2005 11:11:01 PM >

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 21

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 11:11:36 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Just to make sure, I'll reinstall Windows ME on a test system here today or tomorrow and install TS:JC to make sure everything is still fine.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 22

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/11/2005 11:12:47 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
I was able to find a restore point that allowed me to at least get on the internet.

Going back to an earlier restore point didn't even fix everything? Yikes. It sounds like a full reinstall is the only way to go at this point. I hope you are able to backup your files and configurations, sounds like you are if it's working well enough to get to the internet.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 23

RE: Microsoft Case Study - 7/12/2005 12:05:00 AM

Bodhi

Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I had all updates installed prior to loading JC. However currently I get an error when going to that page. I think the last Directx from Windows was 9c
Was able to get Winspool.drv back thanks to advise however I still can't get Outlook Express to open. Even though the file it can't find MSOERES.DLL is right there in the Outlook Express folder. I have a lot of DLL issues right now.
WITP is running again (but showing version 1.40)
I now have an error with serial number as entered with Crown of Glory.
Gates of Troy serial number invalid.

No chance your registry's been corrupted?

_____________________________

Bodhi

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 24