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The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another entry ... - 3/16/2005 2:07:52 AM

color
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It's a pleasure for 2by3Games to present you with the longest entry so far in our popular Developers Journal! Ten pages with the history of Gary Grigsby's World at War, filled with interesting insight and information.
Joel even added a little peek into 2by3Games future, which reveals a secret project few knew about. Did that stir your curiousity?

Then click here and don't miss out this new entry in the journal!

Jorgen Vasshaug
Webmaster
2by3Games

Post #: 1

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 2:20:31 AM

Bodhi
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After reading the latest journal, is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that, after the 1.5 patch is out, 2by3 would rather that WitP just crept into a dark corner and quietly disappeared?

< Message edited by Bodhi -- 3/16/2005 9:03:46 AM >

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RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 2:59:46 AM

Crimguy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

After reading the latest journal, is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that, after the 1.5 patch is out, 2by3 would rather that WitP just crept into a dark corner and quitely disappeared?

You must be referring to this gem:

While Keith continued working on GGWaW and Marc began to upgrade our graphics, Gary and I wrestled with the WitP beast. By early 2004, we could see the light at the end of the tunnel on WitP, while GGWaW was ready to begin widespread alpha testing. In April, we put GGWaW out for alpha testing, although there was still a lot of artwork left to be done. At the same time, we were in the final beta stages of WitP. We finally finished WitP in early June and could focus on GGWaW. When we started alpha testing in April, we still thought that we had a chance to finish by September/October if everything went well. In the end, at least 3 things kept us from finishing GGWaW in 2004. First, WitP had continued to take more time and effort from all of us. By the time it shipped, many of us were exhausted. Second, the artwork for GGWaW was delayed, both due to Marc's ongoing work on WitP and by the changes that we requested in the interface based on comments from the testers. Maurice Buttazoni had come in as Matrix's lead tester, and he made many good suggestions regarding how we could alter the GUI to make it more user friendly and easier to navigate between screens. This, of course, added more art and programming time, but in the end, we think it was well worth it.

(in reply to Bodhi)

Post #: 3

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 3:08:04 AM

testarossa
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Well, it was said before 1.5 will be the last feature patch. After that may be 1-2 bug squishing ones.

_____________________________

Dr. Miller: I should've called the marines!
Dalton: They're few, they're proud... And they ain't here!!!

(in reply to Bodhi)

Post #: 4

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 3:14:58 AM

Sonny
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Give the code to Bodhi and I and we will turn it into a C#.NET game with all the features you would want.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to testarossa)

Post #: 5

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 3:26:00 AM

Halsey
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No offense, but GGWAW goes into the same category as HOI1/2. If it wasn't for UV and WITP for the wargaming grognards I doubt that I would purchase any of the other Matrix titles. Korsun Pocket is so so. Once it's newness wore off I traded that game in for Total War. I own a lot more HPS games than 2x3's. Matrix can go for a niche market, or they can cater to the Wal-Mart crowd. That's their marketing perogative. Oh wait, Wal-Mart doesn't utilize digital download. Hmm...

As a private company I understand that decisions are made to help make a profit and survive. The bottom line is, if you don't market what customers want, then they'll go elsewhere to spend their hard earned cash. The decision for Matrix to be niche or mainstream is their choice. Thankfully I have other options available to me should they choose the mainstream route.

< Message edited by Halsey -- 3/15/2005 7:24:18 PM >

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RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 3:41:47 AM

33Vyper
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The SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING !!!

god...are we gonna have another one of these threads.???

I think Matrix and the boys have explained that they will do all they can to quash the bugs etc... Let's remember this is GG's baby and it will not just simply die. Yes they will probably not be adding a bunch more new features...but lets be realistic here we cannot expect Matrix to funds this forever.

I am sure that with the community support/continued mods etc there will be years and years of WITP to come. Not to mention the freakin game takes years to play.

At some point...probably not in the near future they may even release the code and let the modders go crazy.

Until then I must say to Matrix that I am very satisfied with the support that they do provide (I challenge those complaining to find a company that take as much crap as these guys do).

(in reply to Halsey)

Post #: 7

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 3:48:43 AM

Mr.Frag
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quote:

The SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING !!!

Yep, duck ....

Whoops, guess that doesn't help much!

(in reply to 33Vyper)

Post #: 8

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 4:06:18 AM

jwilkerson
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If Matrix/2x3 can't figure out how to get more revenue out of WITP then we should discuss open source ( no reason to limit this to 2 programmers ! ). But I'm not sure they couldn't figure out how to get more revenue ... I think some of us ( me included ) would pay for some more features ... at the top of my list would be

1. Support for simultaneous order entry by multiple players on each side [ still turn based game - but simultaneous order entry ].
2. More parameterization and switches so code DOES NOT have to be changed for some many little items ... like ASW multiplier ... or the CV strike penalty ...

And if we generate a way to fund these 2 ... a prioritized list of smaller items could be changed as well as a part of that project ... but I don't see any marketing effort to potentially sell an "upgrade" though that might be possible.

(in reply to Sonny)

Post #: 9

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 4:08:37 AM

Bodhi
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

The SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING !!!

god...are we gonna have another one of these threads.???

I think Matrix and the boys have explained that they will do all they can to quash the bugs etc... Let's remember this is GG's baby and it will not just simply die. Yes they will probably not be adding a bunch more new features...but lets be realistic here we cannot expect Matrix to funds this forever.

I am sure that with the community support/continued mods etc there will be years and years of WITP to come. Not to mention the freakin game takes years to play.

At some point...probably not in the near future they may even release the code and let the modders go crazy.

Until then I must say to Matrix that I am very satisfied with the support that they do provide (I challenge those complaining to find a company that take as much crap as these guys do).

I've always thought, and have probably posted, that 1.5 will be the last major patch we'll get. I'm not complaining about that.

The question I asked was what impression the developer's journal gave of 2by3's attitude to WitP. You say that's it's "GG's baby and it will not just simply die", and I've seen similar opinions expressed before. However, I wonder if they're just wishful thinking. From the few things that are actually written by 2by3 (see also the wargamer.com interview from way back), it seems that it may have been their "baby" some time in the past, but maybe they now wonder if it should have been left on an exposed hillside at birth.

For the record, I think 1.5 will be the last major patch for quite a while. The only likelihood of getting any further changes to the game are only going to come if 2by3 ever allow users access to the code. I don't see that happening any time soon, and if it does happen any changes aren't likely to be easily made. The game after 1.5 will basically be the game that we'll have for quite a while, so we'd better get used to it. The game won't die while there are still people playing it, but 1.5 will probably be as good as it gets.

_____________________________

Bodhi

(in reply to 33Vyper)

Post #: 10

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 5:44:19 AM

freeboy
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As a poor not very active Beta for GGWAW, I would warn those who think GGWAW is and easy, tright little game that can be easily mastered.. I do not think it will be as smoth and polished as HOI@, but I do think the AI will be unbeatable, something seldom if ever seen especially in more advanced grog type games...

(in reply to Bodhi)

Post #: 11

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 6:39:02 AM

testarossa
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is it unbeatable without cheating? or its dice are loaded?

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RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 6:40:08 AM

pad152
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Comments after reading the Developers Journal, I glad to see 2by3 Games are planing on doing more then just WWII games( mention of a Civil War and space game). Stange, no mention of a steel panthers type game?

It looks like any future of Witp is up to Matrix and not 2by3 Games. I hope after Plan Orange, Matrix will considered another add on for Witp and either hire a part time programer or look at turning the game over to someone willing to continued support, once Mike Wood moves on to other projects. It doesn't look like there is any future of a new Witp type game.

(in reply to freeboy)

Post #: 13

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 7:25:18 AM

33Vyper
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quote:

it seems that it may have been their "baby" some time in the past, but maybe they now wonder if it should have been left on an exposed hillside at birth.

LMAO...true...how true

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 14

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 7:39:13 AM

Crimguy
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Personally, I'd like to see GG try to do an ultra-detailed Eastern Front game. Cover everything. Not as abstracted as W@W looks. I'm thinking Kursk '43 meets WitP.

(in reply to 33Vyper)

Post #: 15

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 8:29:40 PM

foliveti
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Not to start unfounded rumors, but it seems that the developers journal indicated that work on the patch would be completed by the end of the month. At least from the development end. I have no idea how long it will take to test that puppy, but I am optimistic about getting 1.5 by May at least.

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Frank

(in reply to Crimguy)

Post #: 16

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 9:47:18 PM

testarossa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

Personally, I'd like to see GG try to do an ultra-detailed Eastern Front game. Cover everything. Not as abstracted as W@W looks. I'm thinking Kursk '43 meets WitP.

Well, they mentioned something about Russian front.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Crimguy)

Post #: 17

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 9:49:59 PM

Mr.Frag
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quote:

ORIGINAL: testarossa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

Personally, I'd like to see GG try to do an ultra-detailed Eastern Front game. Cover everything. Not as abstracted as W@W looks. I'm thinking Kursk '43 meets WitP.

Well, they mentioned something about Russian front.

WiR will be more along the lines of WitP then WaW. It will be another game to hurt you, alienate kids and wifes, etc

(in reply to testarossa)

Post #: 18

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 9:52:35 PM

testarossa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: testarossa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

Personally, I'd like to see GG try to do an ultra-detailed Eastern Front game. Cover everything. Not as abstracted as W@W looks. I'm thinking Kursk '43 meets WitP.

Well, they mentioned something about Russian front.

WiR will be more along the lines of WitP then WaW. It will be another game to hurt you, alienate kids and wifes, etc

Yahoo!!! Hope they will use some modern programming techniques this time.

_____________________________

Dr. Miller: I should've called the marines!
Dalton: They're few, they're proud... And they ain't here!!!

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 19

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 9:55:31 PM

Mr.Frag
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quote:

Yahoo!!! Hope they will use some modern programming techniques this time.

Such as? Something wrong with C? You would prefer some pigware runtime that requires 2 gigs of ram and eats half of your cpu cycles?

(in reply to testarossa)

Post #: 20

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 10:01:08 PM

bstarr
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: testarossa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

Personally, I'd like to see GG try to do an ultra-detailed Eastern Front game. Cover everything. Not as abstracted as W@W looks. I'm thinking Kursk '43 meets WitP.

Well, they mentioned something about Russian front.

WiR will be more along the lines of WitP then WaW. It will be another game to hurt you, alienate kids and wifes, etc

Yes! There really must be a God because my prayers have just been answered!

_____________________________

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

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RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 10:27:06 PM

testarossa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Yahoo!!! Hope they will use some modern programming techniques this time.

Such as? Something wrong with C? You would prefer some pigware runtime that requires 2 gigs of ram and eats half of your cpu cycles?

It's not like I’m software guru or something. I'm an accountant. But I’m working for software developer and heard a lot why deadlines are not being met from our nerds.

I have nothing against C++. Although it is very unforgiving of errors. That's why you guys are suffering making patches, changing the code, getting new bugs and patching again.

So I asked around the office what would be the best language for database driven game, with 2D graphics, easy to modify and fix. And they said VB.net or Python. Just an opinion.

Well. My 2 cents. I don’t actually expect 2by3 to choose their development tools based on the forum rant.

_____________________________

Dr. Miller: I should've called the marines!
Dalton: They're few, they're proud... And they ain't here!!!

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 22

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/16/2005 11:18:10 PM

Bodhi
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Yahoo!!! Hope they will use some modern programming techniques this time.

Such as? Something wrong with C? You would prefer some pigware runtime that requires 2 gigs of ram and eats half of your cpu cycles?

Nothing wrong with C. Of course I don't know any pigware runtime that need 2 gigs ram or eat half your cpu cycles either.

For those with an open mind, it might be interesting to read (the admittedly self-praising) article from MS on what was used to make Tin Soldiers: Alexander the Great.

_____________________________

Bodhi

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RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/17/2005 12:17:21 AM

Mr.Frag
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The framework is helpful at the widget level assuming you don't already have your own routines done in native code already done. I'd hate to think how long the training ship crews would take in a compiled language instead of tight handwritten C.

(in reply to Bodhi)

Post #: 24

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/17/2005 1:09:19 AM

33Vyper
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I love when you guys talk code and stuff....it sorta reads like this

Blah...blah blah...blah blah blah....blah....C....blah blah blah C++

ahhhhh nothin like Charlie Brown's teacher

(in reply to Bodhi)

Post #: 25

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/17/2005 1:13:30 AM

testarossa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The framework is helpful at the widget level assuming you don't already have your own routines done in native code already done. I'd hate to think how long the training ship crews would take in a compiled language instead of tight handwritten C.

There is another tight handwritten language - Assembler.

I recall decent progs were around 48Kb.

_____________________________

Dr. Miller: I should've called the marines!
Dalton: They're few, they're proud... And they ain't here!!!

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 26

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/17/2005 1:46:38 AM

ZonkerHarris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny

Give the code to Bodhi and I and we will turn it into a C#.NET game with all the features you would want.

I'll give that a great big AMEN! and go even further: Matrix and 2by3 should release most of the code to the game under a license similar to the Mozilla Public License (link) used for the Firefox browser (among other things). This would protect the commercial rights of Matrix and 2by3 while allowing any interested member of the community to donate his or her time and skill to improving it.

(The parts I would suggest they do not release would be the PBEM encryption code (I think we'd all prefer that to remain secure) and perhaps the AI. This would limit real use of the game to paying customers. Some trusted volunteer (Mr. Frag, Bodhi or someone at that level of skill) could then accept patches and issue "blessed" binary versions of the program.)

And if this seems extreme or unrealistic, consider that John Carmack and id Software release the source code to their games once the major sales period has ended. (Want the source code to Quake 3 Arena? It's at this link.) Those titles sell in numbers several orders of magnitude greater than wargames of this sort, and the engines that they use in these games, and later release under the GPL, generate significant license revenue all by themselves (like $500,000 a pop, if I'm remembering this correctly). As a result, there's a healthy mod and user community even years after a new game has come out. So it's not like there isn't a precedent.

_____________________________

"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"

(in reply to Sonny)

Post #: 27

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/17/2005 9:08:35 PM

Sonny
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quote:

ORIGINAL: testarossa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The framework is helpful at the widget level assuming you don't already have your own routines done in native code already done. I'd hate to think how long the training ship crews would take in a compiled language instead of tight handwritten C.

There is another tight handwritten language - Assembler. I recall decent progs were around 48Kb.

Yeah, decent two color progs - green and black.

_____________________________

(in reply to testarossa)

Post #: 28

RE: The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another en... - 3/17/2005 11:01:36 PM

testarossa
Matrix Hero

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Not really. ZX Spectrum or Commodore C-64 had 8-bit color and good sound. For that time that was awesome.

Right now there is a beta demo of 3d shooter 96Kb.

http://www.theprodukkt.com/

Nothing special just a demo. Requires decent rig, my office PC cant run it.

_____________________________

Dr. Miller: I should've called the marines!
Dalton: They're few, they're proud... And they ain't here!!!

(in reply to Sonny)

Post #: 29

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The 2by3Games developers journal add yet another entry . . .

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