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RE: Demo Comments - 3/18/2005 6:27:57 PM   
P_DEX

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 9/17/2004
Status: offline 		The demo contains two PDF's. One is a tutorial PDF and the other is a gameplay PDF.

At any rate, I'm one of the dozen or so guys that I know of who always fights the urge to jump into any game before giving the manual a thorough going-over. Now, I'm not a hard-core wargamer by any stretch but I do like wargames (make sense?). In my "hardcore" wargame collection I have Uncommon Valor, which I really enjoy. My limited boardgame experience has been a small handful of solitaire ones and never the "elite" boardgames with their encyclopedia-sized gameplay manuals and 100,000 half-inch counters. I'm kind of a "loner" when it comes to boardgames so good solitaire play is always a plus for me.

I LOVED SSG's Carriers at War series in the early 90's. Read some good things about Korsun Pocket and thought BiN was something I would eventually be intersted in. Now, thanks to SSG releasing a demo, I can try it out for myself. Very first impression was "Oh my God...my frickin' head hurts!" and almost blew the game off as WAY over my head. So much information! The main map is huge! How the hell am I gonna control all of this?! This, of course, was me trying to jump in before the reading of the manual. So, I printed out the manual at work on the quality laser printer and spend a good portion of my lunch breaks reading. I'm starting to get it now. It's beginning to make much more sense. A couple of more reads (oh yeah, I'll do it!) and I'll feel confident I can jump into the tutorials and get slaughtered. :)

Thank you for the demo, SSG. I can't promise at this moment that I'm going to purchase BiN but I'm darn sure promising you that I'm giving it my best effort. :)

< Message edited by P_DEX -- 3/18/2005 6:28:30 PM >

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)
Post #: 31
RE: Demo Comments - 3/19/2005 1:48:26 AM   
MadScot

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 4/24/2004
Status: offline 		"x" seems to be the key that darkens a previously moved unit.

What I'm looking for - and I wish I knew how to get it back - is the thing that, when you select a unit, darkens the HEXES that you can't get to with your current OPs. i.e. it changes the map in the same way as the supply mode thing makes it different colours, except this is just dark and normal.

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)
Post #: 32
RE: Demo Comments - 3/19/2005 2:13:15 AM   
Krec


Posts: 548
Joined: 3/9/2001
From: SF Bay Area
Status: offline 		finally downloaded the demo and gave it a try. actually have been fiddling around with it for a week now and my first impression are :

1: the map/units are just too small , my eyes hurt when playin this game. (i know about the alt tab. pain in the arse imo)

2: hard to tell the diff of same units. ie armor i or armor ii . too darn small to read

3. while the interface is probably fine once you GET USE TO IT. an interface should be intuative and again easy to SEE what each button does . although the interface is functional it just doesnt feel right. i get the feeling i am jumpin all over the place to see whats goin on.

basically i am the type of gamer who likes to sit down and get the gest of things in about 15-20 mins. couldnt do it with this one. wanted to like it just cant get past the darn screen size. i have great eye site and this darn game really bugs the heck out of me . i am sure its great once you get past the learning curve. ill keep tryin , 800x600 is the way to go imo, ive read why it was done this way but we all dont have 21inch screens. i am on a 19 inch and still is too small. just my opinion

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"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." Patton


(in reply to MadScot)
Post #: 33
RE: Demo Comments - 3/25/2005 4:48:29 AM   
MadScot

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 4/24/2004
Status: offline 		Re my previous comments about unit IDs. Just finished a KP scenario (I dug out the disk, which I'd consigned to the shelf in disgust previously). Playing as the commies, I found something very nice (for me) and very interesting. Russian units have division or corps ID numbers on the units, not just symbols like the Germans. Which I found much more palatable.

Since it obviously is graphically doable to put the ID on the counters, I really would like that be there as an option, if nothing else. Bizarre runic symbols may appeal to some, but they really are offputting.

(I guess the reason it's done that way for the russkies is that they don't have division insignia, or at least not famous ones.)?

(in reply to Krec)
Post #: 34
RE: Demo Comments - 3/25/2005 4:19:15 PM   
MadScot

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 4/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadScot

Quick question. Somehow I once managed to turn off the feature that shades the parts of the map you can't move to. The manual/tutorial book says it's 'by default' but doesn't hint how to actually get it back. I looked for a list of hotkeys and found one here, but there isn't one that seems to correspond. Any clues?


OK, answering my own question (found it by reading through the manual). There's a key called "Toggle Dark Move Area" in the "Unit Control Panel", which is the one I must have hit by accident.

(in reply to MadScot)
Post #: 35
RE: Demo Comments - 3/25/2005 4:24:30 PM   
pterrok


Posts: 79
Joined: 11/13/2003
From: Shreveport, LA USA
Status: offline 		See, we just have to disagree...I LOVE the division insignia--it's makes it so easy to tell at a glance who is related to who, as it were. And since I'm a game player more than a war historian, I didn't know (nor really care) what division was which, I just needed to know who was better and who was worse, which I learned by looking at their capabilities.

But having played the game so much, I now KNOW a lot of those division insignia on sight--I LEARNED something from the game!--and when they pop-up in different scenarios they are like old friends and I KNOW that this particular patch means it is probably one of my better divisions or one of my 'throw-aways'.

When I play the Soviets in KP I am SLOWED DOWN since they apparently DIDN'T have unique division insignia--so I'm left at looking at masses of units which look all the same and struggling to try and make out the unit number. I end up relying on the hex highlight under division-mates more for them than anyone else...

Your whole argument seems to be implying that it's important to you to know that the unit you're moving around is the 101st Airborne Division, for example. If so, I'm surprised that you don't KNOW their shoulder patch already! If it's NOT important to you to know that you're moving around Panzer Lehr, for example, then it's still easy to see you're moving around the Capital L's! (The closest one I can think of to a bizarre runic symbol!)

Yes you CAN design a game without graphics--but people usually argue for MORE graphics simply because they can convey more info in a easier to distinguish format. Why, after all, do most armies HAVE shoulder patches to show what division their in?

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KP & BiN Articles

(in reply to MadScot)
Post #: 36
RE: Demo Comments - 3/25/2005 6:00:51 PM   
MadScot

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 4/24/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I'm not suggesting they remove the shoulder patch graphics, but perhaps make it an option? Or do like the Soviet units, and ADD the unit ID (abbreviated as required) to the graphic (the Soviet units do have a graphic, it's just generic) - again optionally? Just like some games allow people to swap between NATO standard symbology (which actually provides more info, if you have the secret decoder ring) and equipment pictures and the like (which are more accessible, and which some people prefer). Things like the HoI-type games swapping between dolls and counters - some people prefer each type, some quite strongly. The best solution is to make everyone happy if you can.

In terms of the utility of learning the shoulder patches vs the unit names; if I were to now go and read up on the battle as a consequence of interest piqued by the game, I would find references to 5th Guards Tank Army and to 17th Panzer Division, for example. i would not find the units referred to by means of unit insignia. Even if I know the patches, I still need to know the names to read about them.


(in reply to pterrok)
Post #: 37
RE: Demo Comments - 3/25/2005 7:03:38 PM   
pterrok


Posts: 79
Joined: 11/13/2003
From: Shreveport, LA USA
Status: offline 		I have the full game, not the demo, so I'm not sure if both of these are in there, but you CAN find out the names of the divisions--in fact you pretty much have to do the one to play effectively...

When you right-click on a unit to call up the pop-up info window, you can then move the mouse over one of the units in the stack on the left side of the pop-up screen to see its details, and in the upper right corner of that view is their division name and patch and division integrity bonus and radius. You need to view these details to see the steps an enemy has so you know how their shock/AT values and AF/DF are going to change when you knock a step off them, so I know it's gotta be in the demo.

The easier way, of course, is simply to click on the OOB button! You can page through the armies and you'll see the 101st Airborne with the units with their patches shown under the text label! (I suppose it's possible the demo does not have the OOB button, apologies in advance if this is the case.)

Note that I don't disagree with you that having the option to switch the patch display to text is an addition that would add some value--the problem is that I think the value added would be slight. On the Run5 discussion threads many things are mentioned and suggested and moaned about, and SSG DOES listen to the ones that seem to have the most support and/or ones that tickle their fancy.

I've suggested many, MANY ideas for improvements and it's cool when one of them gets implemented, but I know that it's not a democracy--it's their game and no matter how great I think my idea is, they are the ones who have to code it or draw the art to get it done. (Besides, if it WAS a democracy, I think I've seen one other person who would vote to get this changed display, vs all the unknown number of people who would vote to spend that same amount of implementation time to add a different feature instead!)

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KP & BiN Articles

(in reply to MadScot)
Post #: 38
RE: Demo Comments - 3/27/2005 10:47:07 PM   
darth_stalin_1

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		hi i was wondering about the demo. how do you beat the battle of the buldge campain has the german army.the ai was too tough for me.

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(in reply to pterrok)
Post #: 39
RE: Demo Comments - 3/27/2005 10:49:02 PM   
darth_stalin_1

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		i couldnot win on the battle of the buldge campain on the demo does anyone gave any strategies on hw to beat the thedemo.

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(in reply to P_DEX)
Post #: 40
RE: Demo Comments - 3/29/2005 2:38:15 AM   
darth_stalin_1

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		its inpssible to beat this demo i will bye the game thoe. ie the battle of the buldge campain. have any suggestions.

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(in reply to TheHellPatrol)
Post #: 41
RE: Demo Comments - 3/29/2005 2:40:28 AM   
darth_stalin_1

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		thids game has 60 page manuel but hoi 2 has a 100 page manual. whats your point.

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(in reply to TheHellPatrol)
Post #: 42
RE: Demo Comments - 3/29/2005 2:42:31 AM   
darth_stalin_1

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		in reply to madtrooper. this game has less rules than hoi2 so whats your point about the manuel size booklet.

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(in reply to darth_stalin_1)
Post #: 43
RE: Demo Comments - 4/14/2005 9:02:43 PM   
Rik81

 

Posts: 327
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline 		I can't believe I ate the whole thing--Well maybe not the "whole" thing, as the DEMO SCENARIO I did do nothing more than "look at." What I did do was go through all NINE tutorials.

While I would of preferred "in-game" pop-up HTML screens telling me what to do for each step, the tutorial manual (after printing it out) does work well.

I am very impressed with the sheer DEPTH of this game, all the things that they have taken into account. I guess my major regret with the DEMO is I would of much preferred for a "test play" a small "invade the beaches" type scenario. Something that one could try three or four times in the time it might take to do the ARDENNES.

My biggest gripe with the game has been mentioned by at least one other person in this thread: No MAP ZOOM. And yes, I am aware of the ALT key, and yes, I have a 21 inch monitor. However, unlike the other poster, my eyes are not that good! This may keep me from getting this game. Just one level of MAP ZOOM, plus the ALT key, would really help a lot. I don't know if the "technology" for something like that can be patched in, I am guessing no.

(in reply to darth_stalin_1)
Post #: 44
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