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RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/26/2005 3:26:45 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		In abstracting the mechanics didnt they also leave out smaller ships that were used to haul troops, especially for the Japanese? I know for supply and resource management the Japanese are given the ability to cross a sea side hex because of smaller ships not included in the game.

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 31
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/26/2005 6:46:29 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		What does all this do to the 25 ship TF limit? Just more TFs to coordinate?

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 32
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/26/2005 7:24:32 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pry


Scenarios must work within the capabilities of the engine running them So you make your scenario work within the capabilities of what the engine can and can not do. There is a point where historical accuracy and the game don't mix so you keep things right at or a little above that level, the game already abstracts the little things like coastal shipping and it all works and you can enjoy the game for what it is a game not an exact historical simulation.




Pry - since most of us don't have access to the source code - we don't know exactly up front how to align our scenarios with the capabilities of the engine. So instead, we [ mostly - except for Andy's map ] use the provided tools to make changes we think are more historically accurate than the data provided and then we test to ensure we haven't accidently turned a Nate into a Battleship ! Not sure that is an invalid process given that we don't have the source code. But since apparently you DO have access to the source code and can thus "work within the capabilities of the engine" then that gives you an advantage. But historical accuracy should not be comprised unless it "breaks" the engine [ IMHO ].


(in reply to pry)
Post #: 33
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/26/2005 7:42:03 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

and to be a micro managers Nirvana control of supply and air forces


In just what way does your mod require the micro management of supply ? Is this based on the reduction in lift capability or something else ?

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 34
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/26/2005 7:47:24 PM   
eMonticello


Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline 		Pry,

The 15% stowage figure is only valid for transporting troops within the rear area by the former ocean liners, which was Oleg's concern. It can't be applied to invasion forces since there's a difference between commercial (bulk) loading and combat loading. I would suggest using 20% stowage for the former ocean liners (West Point, for example) and your original 40% stowage (or more) for ships used for invasions (to simulate combat loading). This will allow transporting large LCUs between US and Australia without tying up most of your transports.

Gary

quote:

ORIGINAL: pry
quote:

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

It's probably reasonable to reduce the APs by 15-20%. My numbers below assume that the soldiers are carried in the AP (either Queen Mary or West Point) and the equipment are carried in the C-3s.


eMonticello,

I appreciate you input on this, however the problem with using the numbers you provide is that you have separated the men from their equipment and supply this is something you can not do in the game.

lets look at some actual invasions and you all draw your own conclusions if I am in the ball park or not...


_____________________________


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Pudd'nhead Wilson

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 35
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/26/2005 8:04:02 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pry

I knew the company line crack would bring questions...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what do you mean by saying the scenarios attempt to keep the play "balanced"? How so?


Because changing values in the editor helter skelter to any ole value you "think" fits will cause unintended results and cause the combat routines to provide out of whack results. So you try to keep in values in line with how the routines were written and tested to acheive similar results. You could turn the Nate into a flying tank and screw the whole pouch... and the whole balance of how the game unfolds.

quote:


Just for reference, if I were to design a scenario (I never will) I'd try to get the OOB/ratings/whatnot as close in line with history as possible. Does the "company line" not run parallel to that philosophy?
Just asking.


Scenarios must work within the capabilities of the engine running them So you make your scenario work within the capabilities of what the engine can and can not do. There is a point where historical accuracy and the game don't mix so you keep things right at or a little above that level, the game already abstracts the little things like coastal shipping and it all works and you can enjoy the game for what it is a game not an exact historical simulation.




Well spoken Pry......well spoken. I really like your idea on reducing capacity in the transports. I've been fiddling with them myself in a mod I am working on but I was focusing more on their survivability to damage in order to better represent the differences between merchant construction and crew training vs naval vessels.

Reducing cargo capacity is a smart move. I've also always suspected that the game needs to have it's supply generators in certain map areas reduced as well to help pace a bit. Not refferring to the resource issue, but the auto supply of certain bases (Karachi for example which turns India into a logistical powerhouse)

Mog also made a good point too......on how we all tend to think "we" know what constitutes whats historical. If only it was that simple.

_____________________________


(in reply to pry)
Post #: 36
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 4:14:33 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Well after reading Pry's and Nik's comments .. I guess I must withdraw my offer to help.

I see Pry and Nik clearly drawing a line in the sand and wanting to segregate themselves from the CHS group. While I'd rather have one group - if we must have 2 groups, I'll have to go with the CHS group from a "political alignment" perspective. Even though I still think S16 is the most historical thing we really have ... "in production" ... and I'd like to help Pry do more of the same ... I can't do that if it means I must sanction criticism of the CHS group. I've seen them deliver something which I think in about a month ... will be extremely valuable to the WITP community ... and so I can't be part of criticising their efforts, which BTW have "almost" delivered a very good product, in about a 2 month time frame .. with essentially an "open source" type project with Don acting as the release manager.

So don't want to take sides ... but if we have to, I'll go with the CHSers.


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 37
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 4:45:54 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		I get enough politics at work. This I want to do for fun!

_____________________________


(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 38
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 5:14:07 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Let me jump in here. First, Pry and the CHS guys are not in competition with each other. We have both provided alternate scenarios, each with a somewhat different focus. Players may play either or both as they choose – to the benefit of the entire community. I intend to download Pry’s scenario (once the Alpha rush of CHS is over) and will definitely be buying War Plan Orange.

I think that you will find many more similarities than differences in the mods. We took different paths, each did our research, and I suspect that we ended up rather closely on many issues.

CHS has considerably expanded the naval OOBs, with many new transport/cargo/tanker classes and many additional ships as well. I know that Pry has long been in favor of reducing them.

We have also reduced the capacity of these ships – though probably not by the same factor as Pry did. CHS began by creating new cargo ship classes with capacity set at 90 % of Gross Registered Tons (a better value for capacity than Deadweight Tons, in my opinion). Testing revealed an excess of capacity so we made an across-the-board additional cut of 25% (both new and original classes). Our “Large AK (US)” now has a capacity of 5250 (was 7000). We have also re-classed many ships into different classes – some with larger capacity and some smaller. Compared to Scenario 15 we have a larger number of ships with a smaller average capacity and a smaller total capacity. I do not know how this compares to Pry’s work. I am, not surprisingly, very happy with the large number of cargo type ship classes in CHS as it presents the player with a large menu of ships of varying capabilities from which to choose.

And, like Pry, we reviewed and adjusted base supply levels, resources, oil, etc – frequently downward. Same problem recognized, same general action. Players and testing will determine what additional adjustments are required.

We have also converted all U.S. aircraft groups to squadrons (except replenish “wings”) in CHS. This is based on the same history and probably the same references that were available to Pry and I suspect the results are very similar. CHS made some decisions – including some “marginally available” squadrons and excluding others - so our OOBs probably do not match up squadron for squadron. Very close I’d guess.

There are also at least three variations of CHS coming:
Andrew Brown’s “no Middle East/Aden/Panama” variation (with a modified map)
Ron Sauracker’s “anti-respawn variation”
Lemurs! “uncompleted Japanese ships” variation.

So it’s all here for you, WITPers. Play one, play all, take some from each and make your own. Whatever makes the game better for you.

Don Bowen


< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 3/27/2005 5:35:42 AM >

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 39
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 5:21:57 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		I for one, appreciate everyones hard work!
We'll be trying them all out at the first opportunity!

_____________________________


(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 40
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 5:25:43 AM   
Bodhi


Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline 		Same here Halsey. I doubt I'll have time to actually play them all, but I like having a choice.

The hard work that's gone into all these scenarios is much appreciated; I hope the designers had as much fun doing them as we'll get out of using them.

_____________________________

Bodhi

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 41
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 5:31:26 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Exactly Bodhi!
One can never get too much of a good thing.

Even if I don't get a chance to play them all. They're still going to be on my computer.
My only limitation is time. Have to sleep sometime.

_____________________________


(in reply to Bodhi)
Post #: 42
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 5:36:00 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Sleep!? You will have to learn to do without.

I also want to thank all who are making mods that they are willing to make available to us non-modders

I never considered that a 'choice' had to be made. I think the next round of mods, about 18 to 24 months from now
will be the best ones. That will give everyone a chance to see what is available and the modders will get some good feedback and be able to make corrections. I doubt that any of them will get their mods absolutly right the first try.

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 43
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 6:25:51 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

I get enough politics at work. This I want to do for fun!



Halsey ... I felt guilty after reading your response ... so I went back and reread the posts and I still think I saw someone else trying to create a split ...I think I was just recoginizing it for what the words were saying. Do you disagree ?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

just curious pry but why didnt you join forces with the CHS guys??? or why didnt they join forces with you?!?!



quote:

ORIGINAL:pry

Because we do not see eye to eye on things... I actually did invite Don (I respect his subject matter
knowledge) to work on these before they started theirs but our respective visions were totally incompatable.




quote:

ORIGINAL:pry

Because changing values in the editor helter skelter to any ole value you "think" fits will cause unintended
results and cause the combat routines to provide out of whack results. So you try to keep in values in line
with how the routines were written and tested to acheive similar results. You could turn the Nate into a
flying tank and screw the whole pouch... and the whole balance of how the game unfolds.

Scenarios must work within the capabilities of the engine running them So you make your scenario work within
the capabilities of what the engine can and can not do. There is a point where historical accuracy and the
game don't mix so you keep things right at or a little above that level, the game already abstracts the
little things like coastal shipping and it all works and you can enjoy the game for what it is a game not an
exact historical simulation.



quote:

ORIGINAL:Nikademus

Well spoken Pry......well spoken.








(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 44
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 12:59:08 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Don't sweat it.

Being long time gamers, the majority of us have been waiting for a game of this scale and depth for a long time. All of us have different expectations as to how the mechanics should handle hardware and gaming routines. After the dust settles, and new mods and patches are finished up. Is what we are going to have is a game of the Pacific War. There will be issues still, I'm sure of this, but it's going to to be just like any other game. Tactics will be used to exploit the mechanics. A generous use of house rules will help to tone done some of the exploits, some won't. We'll just have to live with it.

With that being said.
Is anything being done to rectify the anti-allied CV coordination rule?
I'm also considering knocking down ASW TF's to a 4 ship limit. Or do away with their use completely and only use SCTF's.

_____________________________


(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 45
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 3:58:00 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Well after reading Pry's and Nik's comments .. I guess I must withdraw my offer to help.

I see Pry and Nik clearly drawing a line in the sand and wanting to segregate themselves from the CHS group. While I'd rather have one group - if we must have 2 groups, I'll have to go with the CHS group from a "political alignment" perspective. Even though I still think S16 is the most historical thing we really have ... "in production" ... and I'd like to help Pry do more of the same ... I can't do that if it means I must sanction criticism of the CHS group. I've seen them deliver something which I think in about a month ... will be extremely valuable to the WITP community ... and so I can't be part of criticising their efforts, which BTW have "almost" delivered a very good product, in about a 2 month time frame .. with essentially an "open source" type project with Don acting as the release manager.

So don't want to take sides ... but if we have to, I'll go with the CHSers.




I should not even dignify this drivel with a response...

You cite two posts on two totally unrelated questions and subjects, one on why I am not working with the CHS guys and another about scenario design in general, take them out of context, mix and match to fit your needs and then attempt to create the Great Anti CHS Conspiracy !!!

I have gone out of my way to give Don advice and even an advanced copy of my own scenario to look over and he incorporated some of my ideas into the CHS... I wish them much success and commend them on the hard work they are giving to the WiTP community. Our respective overall vision on how a scenario should be laid out and to what level of detail was incompatible... No great anti CHS conspiracy there except in your own over active mind...

The only one talking about sides, us verses them is you… Your negative comments and unfounded conspiracy theories are not useful, relevant or appreciated…


_____________________________


(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 46
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 5:46:22 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pry


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

just curious pry but why didnt you join forces with the CHS guys??? or why didnt they join forces with you?!?!

seems like the CHS would have been even better with your help!!!



Because we do not see eye to eye on things... I actually did invite Don (I respect his subject matter knowledge) to work on these before they started theirs but our respective visions were totally incompatable.





Well - if Don isn't offended, I supposed I don't have any rbusiness being so - as the only name you named was his - but I did get the idea of a split from this one post which says "I ... did invite Don ... but our respective visions were totally incompatable" ... but that being said I certainly agree we can move on to more useful topics.



(in reply to pry)
Post #: 47
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 6:05:14 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: pry


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

just curious pry but why didnt you join forces with the CHS guys??? or why didnt they join forces with you?!?!

seems like the CHS would have been even better with your help!!!



Because we do not see eye to eye on things... I actually did invite Don (I respect his subject matter knowledge) to work on these before they started theirs but our respective visions were totally incompatable.





Well - if Don isn't offended, I supposed I don't have any rbusiness being so - as the only name you named was his - but I did get the idea of a split from this one post which says "I ... did invite Don ... but our respective visions were totally incompatable" ... but that being said I certainly agree we can move on to more useful topics.





no big issue here guy....just different ideas being tossed around.

i was just interested to hear them....

just because people have different visions doesnt mean they are being negative towards each other


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Post #: 48
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/27/2005 8:43:25 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Well after reading Pry's and Nik's comments .. I guess I must withdraw my offer to help.

I see Pry and Nik clearly drawing a line in the sand and wanting to segregate themselves from the CHS group.



The board doesn't need political BS like this.

Draw a line in the sand vs CHS? please....where have I ever spoken out against CHS? On the contrary, I tried to help out in regards to the questions revovling around editing for ASW. Here...i was merely supporting Pry's answer to TJ regarding his little suggestion that mayhaps the "company line" and his(and my) moding efforts was some sort of split. (which IMO...yet another little political jab....and i think Pry's answer was excellently crafted. )



_____________________________


(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 49
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/28/2005 3:42:39 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Varitey is good for the community.
Everyone has his/her ideas on what should be changed or different.
Even in CHS, there were differences of opion on certain things. Just looking at the CHS posts show that.
In the end, it is the players choice what mods he/she wishes to play out.

Michael

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 50
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/28/2005 3:57:04 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		Competion is good, it keeps you from getting complacent. With different projects going on, and so many people working, nothing but good can come.

That said, the 1920's is my turf!

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 51
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/28/2005 3:57:44 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		CC3, for eg., had some truly fantastic user mods and maps..in fact, there were so many good ones..it was hard to find someone interested in the same one you were

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Post #: 52
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/28/2005 4:45:04 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

CC3, for eg., had some truly fantastic user mods and maps..in fact, there were so many good ones..it was hard to find someone interested in the same one you were


That will definitely be a problem. And that is why I seldom play anything but the official versions of games.


P.S. Not trying to knock anyone's effort or vision of the game.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 53
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/28/2005 3:30:31 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

CC3, for eg., had some truly fantastic user mods and maps..in fact, there were so many good ones..it was hard to find someone interested in the same one you were


That will definitely be a problem. And that is why I seldom play anything but the official versions of games.


P.S. Not trying to knock anyone's effort or vision of the game.


Also one of the reasons for involving so many people in the CHS. Massive amounts of input, some compromises.


_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 54
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/28/2005 3:38:25 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Also one of the reasons for involving so many people in the CHS. Massive amounts of input, some compromises.



Theres Croat saying that can be roughly translated as:

Lots of nannies = spoilt (rotten) child

and another proverb from my home province, perhaps more suitable here:

When everyone's a captain - ship ends up sunk

O.

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Post #: 55
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/28/2005 3:49:04 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Well, Don Bowen and Lemurs! were basically the Captains and they did a hell of a job. Lots of areas covered by all the varied input and expertise in a variety of areas. It is definitely a boon to have more than a few sources for OOBs etc. The vast differences between the original and the CHS illustrate this.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 56
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/28/2005 6:13:27 PM   
Mark VII


Posts: 1838
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Brentwood,TN
Status: offline 		Pry, will your modifications/scenerios be ready when the next patch comes out? Looking forward to the new #16's as that is what my PBEM opponent prefer to play.

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 57
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/28/2005 8:34:33 PM   
Kwik E Mart


Posts: 2447
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

and another proverb from my home province, perhaps more suitable here:

When everyone's a captain - ship ends up sunk

O.


what kind of ships would those be? river barges?


_____________________________

Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 58
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/29/2005 4:56:18 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		Probably triremes: No one wants to row the oars

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)
Post #: 59
RE: So You Always Wanted To Be A Tester - 3/29/2005 5:34:35 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		In regards to AP capacities, I wouldnt be against some reduction, but IMO I think the real problem are the AKs. In particular that the game allows and apparently many players choose to load LCUs into these cattle boats and then ship them half way around the world and actually survive the voyage to tell about it. Its true that some AKs were used as troop transports locally in theater, they were not used to ship troops from SF to Sidney. IMO it is this expliot that is mostly responsible for unrealistic fast build ups. Personally I think you should quadruple the load cost of LCUs on AKs but pretty much leave AP capacities alone for a couple of reasons.

For one, many APs that historically transported units to the Pac Theater are not in the game. Rightfully so because these ships for the most part made one or two appearences in the Pacific and there are no withdrawl requirements for them in the game. For example the ships that transported the Americal Divsion from the east coast come to mind. The player is actaully short changed from a significant amount of historical shipping so IMO slightly high capicity rates for APs basically make up for it.

Two I am not convinced AP capacitiess are too high in relation to game mechanics anyway. For example in the game you cannot fit the Americal division and its sundrie units ( Two RCTs, 1 CD unit, 1 AA Rgt, 2 EABs, 1 FS ) on the historic number of APs used to ship it because the game mechanics do not allow the mixing of units aboard ships. Consequently even the smallest units take up the whole LCU capacity of a given AP.

For these reasons I am all for greatly reducing the LCU capacity of AKs but dont think a great reduction in AP capacity is neccessarily warranted IMHO.


(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 60
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