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US Subs - worth sending out ?

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> US Subs - worth sending out ? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
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US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 12:25:05 AM   
KPAX


Posts: 735
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
Status: offline 		With a dud rate of 80% at the start of the war, is it even worth it to send out the US Subs ?

With upgrades in mostly 4-42 to radar that helps.

A reduction from 80% to 60% in January helps a lot.

But with the Sept 1943 dud rate dropping from 60% to 10%, that us huge !!

I am in early 1943 to mid 1943 (2 PBEM games) and considering just getting the whole fleet in complete repairs and send out in Sept 1943.

What is everyone else doing ?

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Thanks !!

KPAX
Post #: 1
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 12:29:39 AM   
The Dude

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/28/2004
From: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Believe it or not, with the exception of the O19s and the argonaut I keep all my subs in port until Mid 43 for the simple fact that it is simple to much work for so little return until that time

(in reply to KPAX)
Post #: 2
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 12:38:28 AM   
foliveti


Posts: 371
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Buffalo, NY
Status: offline 		I have mine out on patrol in 1942. The April 1942 seems to keep most of them in the barn for a couple of months. I have not been really concentrating on the dud rate. Does that apply to the S-boats as well or just the fleet submarines? My S-boats seem to be getting some hits and in any event the subs are keeping the Japanese honest vis vis escorting his convoys.

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Frank

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Post #: 3
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 12:49:48 AM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		I use them and I do get some hits. Remember, as the Allies you want to score some points, since it is harder for Japan to get 1943 autovictory in a high scoring game than in a low scoring game. So even if I lose 2 points worth of subs for every point the subs cost Japan I am "ahead" from an autovictory point of view.

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Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to foliveti)
Post #: 4
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 12:58:53 AM   
The Dude

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/28/2004
From: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		how big of TFs do you use? I just cant move all those subs for how effective they are. My wrist would lock up

(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 5
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 1:24:12 AM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

how big of TFs do you use?


Single Sub Tfs. That is a lot of work on turn 1, but quite bearable thereafter, once the subs are disipersed and start returning to port at odd intervals.

Oh yeah, and I like sending some of the PI subs to the Indian Ocean. There are lots of Pacific Sub reinforcments, so send some to base in India and keep the Straits of Malacca dangerous for Japan.

I have gotten occasional hits on Japanese capital ships in the Straits.

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Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

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Post #: 6
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 1:25:03 AM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		On another topic, where is Langley BC? (I only know the Vancouer/Whistler/Vancouver Island area and that only in passing)

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Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

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Post #: 7
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 1:25:05 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I send mine out so they will train but I send them on patrols to guard my advance bases. (Like Midway and Palmyra) Then I send them for upgrades.
I don't begin my major submarine campaign before I have trained the crews upgraded the boats and put a dent into Japanese ASW by sinking ships.
If the Japanese run amok for 6 months then by July or Aug 1942 the IJN will be depleted. That is a good time to begin moving submarines onto their supply lines.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 8
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 1:34:50 AM   
LittleJoe


Posts: 610
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline 		I send them out, of course that 1/5 chance is better than no chance sitting in port somewhere, my subs have scored me around 200 points in the first month of the war, and reguarlly attack his convoys around Japan, it makes my opponent have to use PG's and DDs looking for them that could be used to hurt me in other places.


And of course you get results like this on December 7th from time to time




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RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 2:06:00 AM   
The Dude

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/28/2004
From: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

On another topic, where is Langley BC? (I only know the Vancouer/Whistler/Vancouver Island area and that only in passing)


Its a prety much a glorified suburb of Vancouver about 30-40kms from downtown Van

(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 10
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 2:14:27 AM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

a glorified suburb of Vancouver


This is probably too touristy for you, but my wife and I had fun taking a semi-old (1960s) train up the tracks a way from Vancouver (along the coast). They served dinner on the train, stopped at a small station and had 1940s dance music, then desert on the way back.

Fun date.

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Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to The Dude)
Post #: 11
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 2:42:39 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		It's really frustrating how bad they are. They do get training, if they survive.

In 10/42 they get radar. Very soon after this the number of attacks should increase. Hopefully that will mean more hits.

Don't use the Allied sub-standard doctrine. They're bad enough already.

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(in reply to KPAX)
Post #: 12
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 3:17:23 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, USN submarines have the same problem commom to many Allied units early in war.
Bad equipment and poor training. It is not a submarine thing it is a peacetime to wartime issue.
Just like you need to train airgroups and get them out of Buffalo's and train ships and upgrade their AA you need to train your submarines. The Allies have very few units that are ready to rush into combat.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 13
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 3:35:52 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		I don't understand this bellyaching about allied early war subs. In my game against Grotius and in my practice runs against the AI my subs have scored much better than I feel they should have. I even offered Grotius the option of turning allied sub-doctrine on to tune down the subs somewhat. What am I missing?

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 14
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 7:39:10 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

I don't understand this bellyaching about allied early war subs. In my game against Grotius and in my practice runs against the AI my subs have scored much better than I feel they should have. I even offered Grotius the option of turning allied sub-doctrine on to tune down the subs somewhat. What am I missing?



I guess we could also ask the question the other way - what are WE missing - as the bulk of forum respondents seem to be seeing Allied subs be toothless and japanese subs be targets. Are both sides escorting convoy's in your games ? Are both sides using ASW task forces to hunt subs in your games ? If not that could be the difference.


(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 15
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 8:53:01 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline
I use the piss out of them from day one...

...................

Off Topic, I have had many wounderfull trips to BC, it is a fantastic place, I have been all over the Gulf Islands, Vancover Island and took a Ferry ride to Prince Rupert from their in fact, took 15 hours but What Fantastic scenery. Banif and Jasper were places I will Never forget, Vancover is a Great City, beautifuly framed in with the Coast Mountains behind her, The Bridge to the Sky Corador is another wounder, that park in the Middle of Vancover on the Island with the Acuarium is way cool to. A couple years ago I drove to Alaska throught BC and the Southern part of the Youkon Teratory...I could go on and on about BC and the rest of Canada I have sean....

On the trip to Prince Rupert mentioned above, my GF and I got off the ferry from Washington state in Sydney, haveing been their before I headed into town to this Piza place I found before to get some lunch...as we were walking down the streat I head what had to be a warplane the Engine sound was unmistakable, I looked up and shure enough I was Stuned to see a Spitfire overhead Low heading out over the watter, it banked back and I grabed my GF's hand and raced for the truck, she was all wtf??? I will explane on the way to the airport I said,,Airport?!?!? why...At any rate their was a small airshow going on and we snuck out in the tall grass off the end of the runway and were treated to low leval flybys by about 6 different WW2 era planes, Including the spit,was quiet a day, espichaly to just happen apone it

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Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

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One that got away - 4/12/2005 9:56:35 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Don't you hate it when they miss. (The sub escaped harm)




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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Brady)
Post #: 17
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 9:56:58 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		I'd say: use the all.
In one of my courrent pbem , with sub doc on, i managed to sunk a CVE just south of Balikapan in late december 41...2 fishes of 455mm( do not remember the right caliber) in her stomache and she went down


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Post #: 18
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 10:43:29 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline
Ya it sucks when they miss, it sucks even more when they "Fail to detonate"

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Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

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Post #: 19
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 10:52:56 AM   
janushm

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 10/18/2004
From: 's-Hertogenbosch, netherlands
Status: offline 		yup....use em all! in one of my games O16 alerted me of the KB heading for colombo by putting a fish into Hiryu's side. making the KB head for home. O16 survived. they do provide some early warning... or most importantly they tie down japanese assets i mean....i had a submarine operation off japanese coast for over a month i lost 3 subs... torpedoed 6ships tied down at least 15 destroyers and a hell of a lot PG's.

for the rest... O19, O20 and Argonaut are great. they scored several ships sunk and heavily damaged with their mines [its mid may 1942 in our game] and in total some 30 ships have been sunk by subs

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the escalated quickly...

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RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 12:05:00 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		I sent them out, too. Some hits are better than none, they gain experience and sometimes they give valuable spotting info.
Before sending them out, I change skippers, trying to match their experience with crew experience and giving the higher-experienced crews to aggressive skippers and the mediocre ones to careful skippers. I'm not sure whether this improves chances of getting hits or survivability, but well - I want to believe.
O19, O20, Argonaut, Narwhale and Nautilus are only used for minelaying, and I group boats by endurance - 18000ers at Pearl for use against convoy lanes near the Home Islands, 16000ers at Darwin for use in the SRA, and the shorter-legged boats at Brisbane for use in the PNG/Solomons area. The lone 6000 stays at Pearl, used as 'tame' submarine for (imaginary) ASW training for escorts. I do not expect my subs to devastate the Japanese shipping lanes in 1942, so for the moment I'm quite satisfied. Even with sub doctrine on, I get attacks every day and a few sinkings every week. And once I had Shokaku in the sights - torps failed to detonate, of course...

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Post #: 21
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 12:46:46 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		This is almost exactly how I utilize my boats too LST. Except the Nautilus class gets put on regular deployment. It would be cool to see those 6" guns in action.

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Post #: 22
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 1:02:03 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		For the first months of war I use them for sub transport.
To evac as many units I can from PI and surrounding areas.
Also a bit for mine laying, in the British area.

Once I start getting MLE's I go on a 'mining rampage'
I mine everything I can reach. But I especially like to mine Japan Home Island ports

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Nec recisa recedit

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Post #: 23
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 1:07:55 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey
This is almost exactly how I utilize my boats too LST. Except the Nautilus class gets put on regular deployment. It would be cool to see those 6" guns in action.


Hehe, in Germany we say 'Zwei Dumme, ein Gedanke' - rougly translates into 'two idiots - same idea'.

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AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 24
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 1:11:58 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

In the US we say "great minds think alike".

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RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 2:10:16 PM   
Bobthehatchit


Posts: 1478
Joined: 4/27/2003
From: GREAT BRITAIN
Status: offline
quote:

O19, O20, Argonaut, Narwhale and Nautilus are only used for minelaying, and I group boats by endurance - 18000ers at Pearl
Me to although I lost O19 on the first turn this time around

Didn't get a chance to move her far, but thats war i suppose. I use them in the DEI first then out of India ocean. to make the route to and from Rangoon that little bit more expensive.

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Just my 2 pence worth.
I might not be right.
Hell I am probaby wrong.
But thats my opinion for what its worth!

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 26
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 2:34:48 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey
In the US we say "great minds think alike".


Well, then I suppose we have more idiots in Germany than great minds .

LST



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AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

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Post #: 27
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 3:02:46 PM   
Stvitus2002

 

Posts: 261
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		As the allies against the AI, i have sent all my subs to sea from the start. The Dutch,British, & S boats are quite useful. I also send the american fleet boats out,they can't hit a japanese ship from the inside with the hatches closed,but they CAN gain experience which should be important later.




Joe D.

(in reply to KPAX)
Post #: 28
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 3:42:51 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		For those of you gnashing about how ineffective the US Subs are after playing six months of game time....gnaw on this for a while...

[image][/image]

Notice that most Jap merchant shipping losses roughly double with each passing year....after all of 1942 roughly 1 million tons sunk...1943 an additional 2 million tons....1944 an additional 4 million tons what starts as a stream becomes a torrent by 1944.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Stvitus2002)
Post #: 29
RE: US Subs - worth sending out ? - 4/12/2005 6:49:05 PM   
MM3 Steam Turbine


Posts: 10
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I've used my subs from thenstart too. Knowing that the Jap CVs are in the S. China sea helping the Singapore, I have sent every Dutch, Brit and American sub in pursuit, changing their home base to Batavia. You can hardly see the blue on the map beneath the green sub icons!

I am rather happy with their results this early on in my game. It is Jan/42 and I have sunk more Jap ships than I have lost. A significant portion due to sub swarms.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 30
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