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RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 7:43:47 AM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
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quote:

I don't mean to be picky, but I have a quick question.

1. What uniforms are your Austrians wearing if they are fixed? Didn't Austrian infantry generally wear off-white for their enlisted? (Brighter white for their officers?) Maybe its my monitor, but I don't see any white at all.

We decided the most important consideration with the uniforms was to convey information to the player -- unit type and nationality. This meant, for instance, making the guard units and light infantry units of each nation look similar to the guards and lt infantry of the other nations. We wanted to make sure that the units had some of the national color in them -- the color we use to shade the main map -- so that units would be easily recognizable to players: we did not want to require that players have the expert knowledge of uniforms that you have in order to be able to recognize units. For France and Britain, for example, it was easy to stick to closer to historical uniforms and shade the map with the same base color. Austria was a bit more difficult because we can't shade the map in white. Austria's map color is orange and so we put some orange in their uniform.

The Austrian units are, however, mostly grey -- RGB 153,153,153.

quote:

Oh yeah. What's that red and white flag? I've never seen an Austrian flag like that. (Thanks again.)

You're welcome.

They're Austrian colors dating to the 12th or 13th century. Emperor Joseph II declared the tricolor red-white-red to be the national flag of Austria in the late 18th century. The black double-headed eagle was the coat of arms of the Holy Roman Emperors since, I believe, the 14th century. Emperor Franz II declared this the coat of arms for all Austria in 1804. Since the flags in the detailed battles represent the presence of commanders, it seemed fitting to use the coat of arms for this. The Austrian corps/army flags we use have the black double headed eagle on a yellow background with which you are perhaps more familiar. The Austrian national flag we use has the coat of arms over the bicolor black/yellow.

Eric

(in reply to Le Tondu)

Post #: 31

RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 8:42:24 AM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

Naval actions only use quick combat.

I'll try to get shots of quick combat up in the next few days.

Eric

(in reply to Le Tondu)

Post #: 32

RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 10:29:57 AM

pixelpusher

Posts: 689
Joined: 4/17/2005
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Hi Tondu,

I'm Mr. Barish; the guy who is doing all the CoG graphics. Thanks for your interest in CoG!

quote:

1. What uniforms are your Austrians wearing if they are fixed? Didn't Austrian infantry generally wear off-white for their enlisted? (Brighter white for their officers?) Maybe its my monitor, but I don't see any white at all.

You are part right. The austrian cavalry and officers generally wore off-white with red trim and a black and gold helmet. The grunts would often wear gray long coats (famously depicted in the Vernet paintings of napoleons battles) with their white sash on the outside. The austrians also had a white-coat blue pant uniform, but it was too similar to the spanish.

Just to add onto what eric has already mentioned above; another consideration is the visibility of the white X on infantry, and the / on cavalry 3d units. Those are important to see for being able to tell what a unit is at a glance. All white uniforms means those are not visible.

quote:

I gotta say that I still prefer the NATO symbols to the 3D images. (They're just too hard to make out any detail.)

Yeah people seem to have strong feelings one way or another. The little dots have the added benefit of showing troop strength graphically on the map. It is my understanding that you will be able to choose your preferred method of display.

quote:

Oh yeah. What's that red and white flag? I've never seen an Austrian flag like that. (Thanks again.)

Check it out: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/au.html
It's quite old. There is a great story about that flag's origins ... from a battle in the Crusades. The national flag we are using for austria (yellow and black bicolor, black/orange eagle crest) is not historical, but is a composite of the warflag of the hapsburgs, and the austrian eagle crest. The idea here was that the austro-hungarian empire was larger than just austria, and that we needed to get some orange into it to correspond w/ the map color.

(in reply to Le Tondu)

Post #: 33

RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 4:50:01 PM

2gaulle

Posts: 466
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: Montreal
Status: offline

quote:

We decided the most important consideration with the uniforms was to convey information to the player -- unit type and nationality. This meant, for instance, making the guard units and light infantry units of each nation look similar to the guards and lt infantry of the other nations. We wanted to make sure that the units had some of the national color in them -- the color we use to shade the main map -- so that units would be easily recognizable to players: we did not want to require that players have the expert knowledge of uniforms that you have in order to be able to recognize units. For France and Britain, for example, it was easy to stick to closer to historical uniforms and shade the map with the same base color. Austria was a bit more difficult because we can't shade the map in white. Austria's map color is orange and so we put some orange in their uniform.

I understand now why your soldiers look like more Mexican 1846 than Napoleonic. For those who have some knoledge of this period it's a great pity. Ask myself if napoleonic cultur for other game mechanism are also at the minimun

(in reply to pixelpusher)

Post #: 34

RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 7:06:03 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

We decided the most important consideration with the uniforms was to convey information to the player -- unit type and nationality. This meant, for instance, making the guard units and light infantry units of each nation look similar to the guards and lt infantry of the other nations. We wanted to make sure that the units had some of the national color in them -- the color we use to shade the main map -- so that units would be easily recognizable to players: we did not want to require that players have the expert knowledge of uniforms that you have in order to be able to recognize units. For France and Britain, for example, it was easy to stick to closer to historical uniforms and shade the map with the same base color. Austria was a bit more difficult because we can't shade the map in white. Austria's map color is orange and so we put some orange in their uniform.

The Austrian units are, however, mostly grey -- RGB 153,153,153.

Thank you so much for your replys. It is to your great credit that you guys are so responsive. Too many gaming companies give information out in spoonfulls.

I don't want such a good start to go bad, but I must give some constructive criticism. I understand the technical aspects of your answer regarding uniforms. You guys deserve laurels for your overall efforts, but it will be in the details that you will be examined ---by many.

You are conveying information to the player in the 3D images, but I respectfully submit that you unfortunately are conveying the incorrect information. As I look at that screen, I see no Austrian uniforms at all.

Some orange (or ochre rather) color did exhist in the Austrian uniform. The trouble is that it was in the uniform for their artillery gunners. For Austrian troops, here has to be white or it just doesn't work.

Now, that guy on the horse looks weird too. What's up with that red horse tail plume coming from his head? I don't remember seeing any Napoleonic cavalry with one of those.

What Napoleonic uniform books are you using?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

You're welcome.

They're Austrian colors dating to the 12th or 13th century. Emperor Joseph II declared the tricolor red-white-red to be the national flag of Austria in the late 18th century. The black double-headed eagle was the coat of arms of the Holy Roman Emperors since, I believe, the 14th century. Emperor Franz II declared this the coat of arms for all Austria in 1804. Since the flags in the detailed battles represent the presence of commanders, it seemed fitting to use the coat of arms for this. The Austrian corps/army flags we use have the black double headed eagle on a yellow background with which you are perhaps more familiar. The Austrian national flag we use has the coat of arms over the bicolor black/yellow.

Eric

That is nice. It may be the coat of arms in 1804, but it wasn't the flag that was used in the field. I respectfully submit that those little flags used in the battle maps should reflect what was used in the field at the time. I don't remember ever seeing anything that says that Napoleonic Austrian troops ever carried around any like that.

Now with that said, I am one who strongly prefers the NATO symbols. (I still prefer to exercise my imagination.)

I don't like the 3D images because they almost look all the same to me. I offer the above to help those that do like the 3D images and I will not speak of them again.

You guys are going through so much effort to be so highly detailed in simulating the Napoleonic Era that I think it would be a great shame to not go all the way. ---Especially with what we see on the screen.

I want to say something about those generic flags on the strategic map that the minor provinces will be using. It would be real nice if they could be 100% accurate (regarding each nation) as well.

I know that what I've brought up means more work, but don't forget that it will be in the details that your tremendous work will really shine.

Cheers,
Rick

_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 35

RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 7:40:06 PM

Pippin

Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
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quote:

Naval actions only use quick combat.

Ohhh, you cheap skates!! :P

_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

(in reply to Le Tondu)

Post #: 36

RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 7:50:12 PM

wayne19563

Posts: 14
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline

Game looks good. Using "real life" uniforms is a must. Game will be judged by casual gamers and grognards alike.

Things that make a great game .... (from my view)
Ease of game play
Eye appeal (yes - eye candy counts)
Realism that allows for A-historical outcomes
Solid AI that allows for challenging solitaire play
Editor to create battles that can be shared in the community

Maybe you could look to Age of Rifles for Norm's 3D type symbols for Tactical battles, also his historical uniforms.

Looking forward to this release... it needs an editor included so that you can create your own battles.. this greatly enhances the replay value.

Any chance you can add the Civil War as an expansion Pack?

(in reply to Le Tondu)

Post #: 37

RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 9:57:37 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle
I understand now why your soldiers look like more Mexican 1846 than Napoleonic. For those who have some knoledge of this period it's a great pity. Ask myself if napoleonic cultur for other game mechanism are also at the minimun

Hi 2gaulle,

Your enthusiasm for this project is charming.

You may, I pray, be pleased to learn that Mr Barish expressed his particular opinion to me this morning in an email that it may be possible without missing our deadline to raise the RGB value of the coats from 153 to perhaps something like 200, and also to desaturate the brown in the Austrian trousers, all in such a way as to maintain unit recognizability. This is his own particular recommendation, motivated as he was by a desire to please, or at the least to placate, Napoleonic enthusiasts around the globe.

Eric

(in reply to 2gaulle)

Post #: 38

RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 11:44:38 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

Hi Le Tondu,

I understand completely why other game companies release only bits of information! I sympathize.

I'd like some other opinions regarding the Hapsburg coat of arms on the red-white-red if anyone else has references to this, one way or the other. We did find a source that indicated that this flag was used alongside the black and yellow double-eagle, but as I lost my internet bookmarks in my last hard drive crash I no longer have that source handy.

I must beg your indulgence regarding the cavalry plumes. The plume of which you wrote comes from a generic Napoleonic helmet object Mr Barish used to create the cavalry, not an Austrian 3D helmet object per se. The 3D objects require an enormous amount of work, and it is simply beyond our means to make custom 3D helmets and coats for each nation. Perhaps if there is enough demand then we can fulfill your helmet related requirements in a sequel, but as it is I am in point of fact very constrained by considerations of money and time. I work more than 100 hours per week on this project, and I cannot bear any more financial debt related to it.

I believe Mr Barish uses the Osprey series as the basis for his uniforms.

Our beta testers include many Napoleonic enthusiasts and experts and they seem to accept with cheerful equanimity the notion that there must be a compromise between our limited resources, the need for an accessible and playable interface, and the presence of historically accurate bits of pixels. I have received an enormous amount of enthusiasm and encouragement for our game via electronic mail, and I am certain that the Napoleonics community at large will be as understanding of the need for such compromises.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Mr Barish believes it may be possible to lighten the Austrian uniforms without obfuscating the difference between the various types of infantry (light, guard, militia, regular). If you'd care to give a more detailed critique, perhaps I could arrange to email samples of our uniforms and flags to you. If you're interested, please write to me at ericbabe@west-civ.com.

All the best,

Eric

(in reply to Le Tondu)

Post #: 39

RE: Screens - 4/17/2005 11:57:49 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
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quote:

Ohhh, you cheap skates!! :P

The irony is that in multiplayer mode my detailed combat engine worked almost perfectly from the very start, whereas quick combat in multiplayer had a dozen or so bugs that took a lot of work to iron out, and was an enormous headache to implement in m-player games.

Not counting related AI code, detailed combat consumes some 15,000 lines of code. Quick combat is a mere 1,000 lines.

Eric

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 40

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 12:22:05 AM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
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quote:

Game looks good. Using "real life" uniforms is a must. Game will be judged by casual gamers and grognards alike.

Well that was our reason for wanting infantry types to be clearly recognizable to anyone who looks at them, both casual gamers and grognards. There are 8 nations plus a minor country color. There are four types of infantry. That's 36 types of infantry. If there's not some order imposed on this it'll simply be too overwhelming for new players.

I've had a dozen or so non-Napoleonic-hobbiest-but-strategy-game players in-house for testing and feedback: the initial reaction of every one of them was that they found the Napoleonic details confusing. They don't recognize the old flags, don't know the names of things, don't associate uniforms with nations. I try to be close to my customer, and we use flags and units that are as historical as possible but that still cohere in such a way that is accessible to new users.

quote:

Looking forward to this release... it needs an editor included so that you can create your own battles.. this greatly enhances the replay value.

Any chance you can add the Civil War as an expansion Pack?

If there is interest after the initial release, we hope to do something like an expansion pack that would include a scenario editor and many historical battle maps and orders of battle.

I would say Civil War should be a full blown sequel product since there are so many differences between that era and the Napoleonic.

Eric

(in reply to wayne19563)

Post #: 41

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 4:15:52 AM

gunnergoz

Posts: 447
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline

I think this is a great game in the making. I'm not a Napoleonic era fan (other than the ancient AH Waterloo board game 40 years ago) but your game could bring me back into the fold. Please keep up the good work and continue the mouth-watering previews!

_____________________________

"Things are getting better!
...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
-Old Russian saying

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 42

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 5:51:44 AM

benpark

Posts: 3884
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Looking very, very good.

I do wish that the 3d units had more of a tabletop look to them, maybe like a "stand" of units-I would even like them smaller. Very nice besides. I'm getting this for sure,

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey

(in reply to Le Tondu)

Post #: 43

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 6:22:21 AM

pixelpusher

Posts: 689
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I must beg your indulgence regarding the cavalry plumes. The plume of which you wrote comes from a generic Napoleonic helmet object Mr Barish used to create the cavalry, not an Austrian 3D helmet object per se.

Some plumes were black horesehair, some were big poofy feather things, which could be all sorts of colors. I originally did try them w/ black plumes for some countries, but their heads just looked like black blobs. Identifiablity of country was overriding concern here.

Again, there was enormous variation of uniforms even within a country. Individual units would have radically different types of uniforms from their peers. I mean, there were french cav that wore red head to toe, and others that wore all white. At some point we have to draw a line and actually make this stuff.

quote:

The 3D objects require an enormous amount of work, and it is simply beyond our means to make custom 3D helmets and coats for each nation.

Indeed! It's a HUGE effort to do that. Also, modelling aside, if we had to re-render all those frames of animation (there are several tens of thousands of distinct frames) for each type of unit w/ a historically correct attire... well ... needless to say, we'd be waiting a lot longer for CoG. Like this time next year. (The napoleonic uniforms are fun, though. I wouldn't mind spending a year or so just doing fun flamboyant napoleonic uniforms.)

quote:

I believe Mr Barish uses the Osprey series as the basis for his uniforms.

Yeah, mostly. Also lots of paintings. Again, for all you folks saying that the austrians never wore gray coats, I refer you to Msr. Vernet and the paintings hanging at the Versailles. Lots of dead ausrian troops in gray. In any case, playability and clarity of what's on screen has to trump historic precision.

quote:

Maybe you could look to Age of Rifles for Norm's 3D type symbols for Tactical battles, also his historical uniforms.

Interesting. We tried something like that early on. Thought it didn't show enough w/ formation. Do those animate?

quote:

I want to say something about those generic flags on the strategic map that the minor provinces will be using. It would be real nice if they could be 100% accurate (regarding each nation) as well.

We tried to get them as historically accurate as possible using a variety of sources from the period, including a couple graphic encyclopedias which were published in the early 1800's. It's worth pointing out that our concept of the 'nation-state' is a somewhat recent thing. There isn't a perfect 1:1 correlation to political entities of the day and our province divisions. (ie various parts of poland, turkish regions etc.) For the ones for which no data exist, we would make things based on earlier or later materials.

If you aware of a particularly eggregious error w/ one of the flags please let me know. But please be mindful that there has been a significant amount of research already done, and we're not just making things up at random. Also, because of the severe time constraint we have, I have to prioritize work and I might not be able to fix it, because there are plenty of critical things that must be addressed.

(in reply to gunnergoz)

Post #: 44

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 6:38:54 AM

sol_invictus

Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

As a student of military history for the past 20+ years, I dearly crave historical accuracy in movies, books, and games; but for Christ's sake, don't get wrapped around the axle on trying to make a unit have the correct facings and numbers of buttons on the tunic. As you stated, many things changed during the period covered in the game and there is absolutely no way you could reflect all those chages as the game progresses. As far as I'm concerned, you have achieved an acceptable level of accuracy for such a complicated era. I prefer the NATO icons anyway.

(in reply to pixelpusher)

Post #: 45

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 3:15:51 PM

2gaulle

Posts: 466
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: Montreal
Status: offline

quote:

I've had a dozen or so non-Napoleonic-hobbiest-but-strategy-game players in-house for testing and feedback: the initial reaction of every one of them was that they found the Napoleonic details confusing. They don't recognize the old flags, don't know the names of things, don't associate uniforms with nations. I try to be close to my customer, and we use flags and units that are as historical as possible but that still cohere in such a way that is accessible to new users.

never read something like that from a designer working on a napoleonic project

by the way for the french, the 3 colors was only use in 1815, during most of the period it was a diamond, certainly to confusing....

if your army look like a mexican one, it's not only an RGB color question but also the general design of the uniform and shakos.
It's only requiered to have a minimun background on the period.

quote:

Your enthusiasm for this project is charming.

difficult to be very enthusiasm when I think than the Russian guard will look like the French Old Guard but in green

quote:

I have received an enormous amount of enthusiasm and encouragement for our game via electronic mail, and I am certain that the Napoleonics community at large will be as understanding of the need for such compromises.

I begin to ask myself if you use electronic mail tactic like ADM's Bush .

quote:

Also, because of the severe time constraint we have, I have to prioritize work and I might not be able to fix it, because there are plenty of critical things that must be addressed.

the last time I have heard about severe time constraint was for "Pax Romana" ....

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 46

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 3:29:45 PM

jnier

Posts: 402
Joined: 2/18/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

quote:

I've had a dozen or so non-Napoleonic-hobbiest-but-strategy-game players in-house for testing and feedback: the initial reaction of every one of them was that they found the Napoleonic details confusing. They don't recognize the old flags, don't know the names of things, don't associate uniforms with nations. I try to be close to my customer, and we use flags and units that are as historical as possible but that still cohere in such a way that is accessible to new users.

never read something like that from a designer working on a napoleonic project

by the way for the french, the 3 colors was only use in 1815, during most of the period it was a diamond, certainly to confusing....

if your army look like a mexican one, it's not only an RGB color question but also the general design of the uniform and shakos.
It's only requiered to have a minimun background on the period.

quote:

Your enthusiasm for this project is charming.

difficult to be very enthusiasm when I think than the Russian guard will look like the French Old Guard but in green

quote:

I have received an enormous amount of enthusiasm and encouragement for our game via electronic mail, and I am certain that the Napoleonics community at large will be as understanding of the need for such compromises.

I begin to ask myself if you use electronic mail tactic like ADM's Bush .

quote:

Also, because of the severe time constraint we have, I have to prioritize work and I might not be able to fix it, because there are plenty of critical things that must be addressed.

the last time I have heard about severe time constraint was for "Pax Romana" ....

2gaulle.....What's wrong with you?

< Message edited by jnier -- 4/18/2005 4:22:22 PM >

(in reply to 2gaulle)

Post #: 47

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 5:32:41 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
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quote:

I begin to ask myself if you use electronic mail tactic like ADM's Bush .

Hey, thanks for the heads-up on this! I try to keep abreast of what other developers are up to. I wasn't aware that Archer-Daniels-Midland was working with President Bush on a campaign level Napoleonics game. They're going to present some stiff competition for us, to be sure: controlling a branch of the Federal Government will give them quite an edge -- and especially if it's true that they're copying *my* electronic mail tactic!

Eric

(in reply to 2gaulle)

Post #: 48

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 5:38:47 PM

steveh11Matrix

Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
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LOL @ Eric!

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 49

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 6:15:53 PM

Mr. Z

Posts: 1048
Joined: 3/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

I understand now why your soldiers look like more Mexican 1846 than Napoleonic.

Naturally there were many, many different kinds of uniforms, and they varied not only by country but also by unit and even by year, as I'm sure you well know. Some standardization was necessary not only to speed game production, but also for ease of use by the average player. Hence, the uniforms you see are not always an exact match for the country, unit, or precise year of combat. Overall, I think our graphics designer has done an excellent job of finding designs that fit most situations without deviating too far from the historical facts. The figures are abstractions. Maybe someday we'll be able to release new graphics with more detailed uniforms for various units, but for now I think these designs serve their purpose (visual enjoyment vs. ease of game play) quite well.

Perhaps you cannot see the tails on many of the soldiers' jackets. To me, this clearly indicates a uniform from the turn of the century, rather than the middle of the 19th.

< Message edited by Mr. Z -- 4/18/2005 6:18:01 PM >

(in reply to 2gaulle)

Post #: 50

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 8:12:18 PM

2gaulle

Posts: 466
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: Montreal
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quote:

, but for now I think these designs serve their purpose (visual enjoyment vs. ease of game play) quite well.

that confirm your poor interest for history.

(in reply to Mr. Z)

Post #: 51

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 8:46:37 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

Screenshots look fantastic.

Havent checked this forum for awhile.

And guess what..........

2gaulle is at it again...........Is your job one of those jumped up critics who read a book or watch a film then rip it to pieces even though they couldnt do it themselves??

2Gaulle I have to ask this question. Why are you posting in this game forum when it seems like you dont have any respect for the designer and also have such a low opinion of the game?

You see if I goto a game forum and the game isnt to my taste or the design doesnt suit I'd ask them why they havent done this or that. I would get my answer and then make some suggestions. If they didn't take them on board fair enough I wouldnt push it or become insulting. If the game wasnt going to be something I'd enjoy I'd not post anymore and go look for something else. I wouldnt hang around nit picking at things I saw as faults in the game.

You really should goto the EIA forum and wait for that game or check out the other Napoleonic game.

(in reply to 2gaulle)

Post #: 52

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 9:17:53 PM

Pippin

Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline

quote:

I believe it is similar to SSI's Panzer Generals in terms of general interface and turn structure, though there are some important differences.

So I imagine, there is just one movement, and one combat order per unit?

_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 53

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 10:42:46 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
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quote:

So I imagine, there is just one movement, and one combat order per unit?

Here's the general flow during detailed combat starting with a unit's turn:

1) Unit begins its turn

2) Map fills with highlighted area where unit can move; hexes show move points unit will have remaining if it moves to the hex.

3a) Player clicks on a hex; unit moves there immediately; fog of war and sighting are adjusted; unit may have move points remaining.

3b) Player changes facing; unit points are deducted; etc.

3c) Player issues combat order: fire (issued by clicking on target unit), or charge (issued by clicking "charge" button or by pressing 'c' key.) Unit most likely will not have moves left; however some units (guerilla and light cavalry, or regular cavalry in special circumstances) may have a small amount of moves remaining.

3d) Player issues change of formation, split, skirmish, or similar order. Unit may have movement points remaining.

Units need not go in their turn order but may wait, though this consumes some of their movement points.

Hope this gives a little better impression of the flow of detailed combat.

Eric

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 54

RE: Screens - 4/18/2005 11:52:23 PM

TheHellPatrol

Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Screenshots look fantastic.

Havent checked this forum for awhile.

And guess what..........

2gaulle is at it again...........Is your job one of those jumped up critics who read a book or watch a film then rip it to pieces even though they couldnt do it themselves??

2Gaulle I have to ask this question. Why are you posting in this game forum when it seems like you dont have any respect for the designer and also have such a low opinion of the game?

Yes, this game looks superb! I can't wait to get my hands on it

.
About 2gaulle

...some things never change...

Seriously, this game will fill a huge void and it's just darn pretty...good job!

< Message edited by TheHellPatrol -- 4/18/2005 11:55:13 PM >

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Post #: 55

RE: Screens - 4/19/2005 10:17:59 AM

I�aki Harrizabalagatar

Posts: 825
Joined: 12/11/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

3a) Player clicks on a hex; unit moves there immediately; fog of war and sighting are adjusted; unit may have move points remaining.

If I understand correctly, you can then move your first unit to scout and show enemy positions. That reminds me a game called Civil War Generals 2, in that game, a powerful artillery coupled with that FOW system resulted in matches being a sort of mouse and cat games, very unhistorical, I hope it is not the case for CoG

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 56

RE: Screens - 4/19/2005 3:48:30 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
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quote:

If I understand correctly, you can then move your first unit to scout and show enemy positions. That reminds me a game called Civil War Generals 2, in that game, a powerful artillery coupled with that FOW system resulted in matches being a sort of mouse and cat games, very unhistorical, I hope it is not the case for CoG

I experimented with several FOW penetration systems. My opinion based on this was that the more difficult it was to see, the more like hide-and-seek the battle was; the easier it was to see, the less like hide-and-seek. The current scheme I outlined above is most lenient system of those with which we experimented.

Eric

(in reply to I�aki Harrizabalagatar)

Post #: 57

RE: Screens - 4/19/2005 9:57:47 PM

Pippin

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Joined: 11/9/2002
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quote:

That reminds me a game called Civil War Generals 2, in that game, a powerful artillery coupled with that FOW system resulted in matches being a sort of mouse and cat games, very unhistorical, I hope it is not the case for CoG

I was thinking of exactly the same thing. Quite unrealistic (and troublesome) when I would send a whole division of troops on foot to march miles around for no other reason than trying to spot where my enemy was located! Then when you finaly stumble into one, you get ambushed! Arggggg.

At least Panzer General III had recon units and recon orders, but even then I'm not so sure it was a great system. When you have garrisoned a city with a whole division of units, I would think that is impossible to hide like that in an age with radios and telephones yes? Yet the engine would say.. Ohhh, now those units are almost perfectly hidden! Perhaps all thouse thousands of city folk passing buy just happen to not notice all those tanks and trucks with soldiers milling about their streets?

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Post #: 58

RE: Screens - 4/19/2005 10:53:54 PM

wayne19563

Posts: 14
Joined: 4/17/2005
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Can we see a few more screens of the 3D view ... ???

Also..

Can we see a shots of the Strategic overview map?

Game looks great and I will definately be buying... I like the fact you have combined strategic and tactical

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 59

RE: Screens - 4/20/2005 10:11:06 AM

I�aki Harrizabalagatar

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Joined: 12/11/2001
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In CWG2 the problem was that Fog of War was shorter than Line of Sight AND artillery range. The net result was that playing against Human all sort of unhistorical tactics were favoured, basically it was a dance of scouting units going forward and back, and artillery pounding any enemy unit spotted. I hope CoG has not that problem.
IMO the easiest and more historical FOW in a Napolenic tactic game should be coincident with LOS, with rear line units hiding behind front line units

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 60