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A few newbie comments - 4/28/2005 9:32:36 PM   
Zen

 

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Joined: 4/28/2005
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I just got FPG yesterday through the wonderful digital download. I have patched it to 1.02. I have played through the tutorials and both side of the Soviet Tank Rush scenario.

I am enjoying the game very much. I love the WEGO/turn resolution format. It eliminates a lot of the gamey tricks (aka "techniques" if you are a fan of them) of a IGO/UGO system, as found in the old Panzer General.

Speaking of which, another plus for me is that FPG has about the same kind of learning curve as Panzer General. It is well-suited for both beginners and moderate wargamers. I love that one can complete a scenario in an hour or two. Being married, and with young kids, I really appreciate the easy learning curve and the time frame for play.

That said, I do have a few suggestions. If I am mistaken or misguided on any of these, I welcome correction and comments.

I read the thread "Problems with Sudden Death," and I need to add my agreement. When I had the NATO side in the "Soviet Tank Rush" scenario, I no idea from which direction the Soviet forces would arrive (east, or across the river from the southeast), so I sent recce ahead and tried to setup some defenses to the east of the objective sector, while maintaining a small reserve force in the town itself, with the idea that, if I could spot and engage the Soviet vermin before they got to the town, my arty would have a chance to soften them up for a few turns while I managed an orderly retreat. Well, the Soviet snakes-in-the-grass were already advancing, and so my forces did not get into good position in time. Combined with my novice ineptitude, it wasn't pretty. However, since I still technically held the objective sector at the time my lads went under 20%, I got the win.

Afterward, I read in the manual that, in just such a situation, the victory points for controlling territory would be apportioned in accordance with the remaining force ratios. Since I had hastily dismissed the results window from the battle, I could not confirm whether the points had been so proportioned. Based on my victory status, I can only assume not.

When I switched sides and controlled the Soviets, I decided to see if I could feint an attack on the primary east axis of attack, and secretly cross the river with some other units and come in from behind from the southeast (a left hook).

It took me awhile to get organized with the left hook. In the meantime, the NATO swine seemed to hold back for awhile, digging in I would imagine. We had a few skirmishes from which I withdrew eastward. I expected (and hoped for the sake of the AI) that the NATO forces wouldn't take the bait, but they advanced eastward toward my now dug-in units. By the time my left hook arrived in the objective town, there was no one home except an anti-tank gun and a HQ unit, and both of those were off to the NW a bit. In the end, I controlled the objective town without contest, and picked off the NATO thugs as they kept coming eastward. Decisive victory. It seems as though the AI needs to place more weight on maintaing a defense and securing the objective sectors.

A few more comments, if I haven't lost you already. I see in the Global SOP options window that there are entries for Engineers and Infantry. I am under the impression they don't exist as units in the game. I love to see them added, since they would add strategic (or perhaps it's tactical) depth.

On turn resolution, I realize things can be sped up by pressing Q. I wish there were a middle ground, in which arty was sped up (a la the Q setting), but unit to unit direct fire remained in its default mode. Or, perhaps the explosion/puffs of smoke animations could be accelerated?

Also, it seems like units don't disengage a fight quick enough if their morale falls and they are getting their keisters handed to them. I'd rather see a unit pull back quicker. I think the result would be more "real" and would create a bit more of a sense of having "fronts" and more of a need to watch out for morale. I'm not sure if I stating this clearly, but it just seems like units are too willing to die, if that makes any sense.

My final comment has to do with LOS. I know I can press L for a spot check and E to see the elevation numbers, but I would love to see elevation contour lines or some other tool to get an idea of LOS possibilities. As it stands, I have a heck of a time reading the maps (which are otherwise lovely) to find those spots which are likely to have long, clear LOS. It is sort of a hunt and peck right now. Perhaps I just need more time with the game.

Regardless, I am having a great time with the game. I am looking forward to playing again, as soon as life permits.

By the way, would someone be nice enough to compare and contrast FPG with HttR? I almost got that game, but I wondered if the scenarios were dramatically more lengthy or the game more complicated (not strategy-wise, but management- and interface-wise.) I can stretch a bit beyond beer and pretzel games (of which I consider FPG to be a proud member), but I consider something like BiN (I played the demo only) to be just too much of a commitment of time.

Thanks,

Zen

< Message edited by Zen -- 4/29/2005 4:19:58 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: A few newbie comments - 4/29/2005 5:10:17 AM   
IronManBeta


Posts: 4132
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Burlington, Ontario
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Wow, what a great first post for the forums! My brain is a little fried at the moment but I will come back tomorrow again and respond in detail.

Thanks, Rob

(in reply to Zen)
Post #: 2
RE: A few newbie comments - 4/30/2005 8:16:44 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
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Zen,

Welcome aboard! I'll throw a few things out since Rob is very busy (He will get back to you shortly). Rob is still working pretty non-stop to add features (many from customer feedback) and tweaking the AI. A number of the AI issues you mention are under his microscope to be revamped over the few releases. Leg Infanrty is also in his pipeline too and I'm sure he can clarify things better. The current test version has an accelerated Arty option which is nice. A number of under the hood tweaks are also ongoing too. Rob has been very committed and open about the game. So if you have questions fire away. You'll get an honest answer. Very refreshing in today's punt-it-out-the-door game development environment.

Hope you are enjoying the battles.

S!

Cap'n D

(in reply to Zen)
Post #: 3
RE: A few newbie comments - 4/30/2005 10:17:32 PM   
Zen

 

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Joined: 4/28/2005
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Cap'n D,

Thanks for the information. I'm glad to hear that my suggestions for the game aren't out in left field.

And, yes, it's fantastic that Rob is still improving the game. Before I buy a game, I check out the official forums to (A) see that the game has an active and friendly following, (B) that active following is generally pleased with the game, and (C) the developer is listening and improving the game, as least to the extent that he reasonably can.

I can't wait for future updates!

Zen

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 4
RE: A few newbie comments - 5/1/2005 10:22:07 AM   
Hartford688

 

Posts: 261
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zen


By the way, would someone be nice enough to compare and contrast FPG with HttR? I almost got that game, but I wondered if the scenarios were dramatically more lengthy or the game more complicated (not strategy-wise, but management- and interface-wise.) I can stretch a bit beyond beer and pretzel games (of which I consider FPG to be a proud member), but I consider something like BiN (I played the demo only) to be just too much of a commitment of time.

Thanks,

Zen


Zen

I have not got FPG, but do have HttR and BiN. I am also in the same family situation as yourself. BiN is a bit of "do in chunks" but I find HttR works well for short sittings. Many of the scenarios are lengthy, but still a number are pretty short. With the way the AI command system works, you can often set your orders and then fast forward for a chunk of time until you want to actually change your plans (changing orders every 2 mins is not rewarded given HttR's orders delay). Last night I zoomed through a scenario I had played before in about 30 mins. I would highly recommend HttR.

On another point...buying decisions..you may have figured out yourself, but I found out WitP is not perfect for our time commitment still pretty to look at and admire though.

(in reply to Zen)
Post #: 5
RE: A few newbie comments - 5/1/2005 6:10:12 PM   
IronManBeta


Posts: 4132
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Burlington, Ontario
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I'm back, sorry for the delay - my analog life intruded a bit there and I had to take care of some things.

Gee, I was beginning to think I was the only one having trouble finding the time to play games in light of family commitments, etc. Reading the other forums is apt to leave one with the impression that having, say, 8 hours just to set up the first turn of War in the Pacific is normal and expected. David Heath (Matrix boss) is a wily guy and understands the market. From day 1 he has hammering on me to make this game simpler and more accessible for the people who are newer to this hobby and for those who want a 'real game' but can't devote quite their entire life to playing it. That was a fundamental goal of the whole FPG project and I am delighted to see that you noticed it.

This is not a knock on any other game of course! Far from it, just an observation that the hobby needs a diversity and monster games are not for everyone. When I was 20 or so I used to love monster games and could find the time needed to play them. Now I am crowding 50 and it just isn't possible. I have to be able to learn and play a game quite quickly or I am on to the next thing. I suspect that there are a lot like me out there. That translated into spending proportionately a lot more time on the interface and visualization of data tasks, and less on surfacing the interface to picky little rules and exceptions. Yes, people still want to micromanage and I am selectively adding things in but the general intent is clear. Spare the poor player the burden of endless micromanagement and just cut to the chase. If he can sit down and relieve some stress in an enjoyable way in an hour or two then the goal is satisfied for me.

Highway to the Reich is an interesting case. We were developed simultaneously and were unaware of each other but we shared the same project manager, artists, rules guy, etc. HTTR came out first as it happened and when I looked at it I was astonished at the number of similarities between our two games. The main difference was really that David had not told them to 'keep it simple' and therefore it had maybe 10x the player complexity. It is an awesome accomplishment and when I met the developers at Origins last year we had a lot to talk about. I see FPG positioned to be an introduction to the hobby (for many people) and a good 'beer and pretzels' game as Zens note and then the natural upgrade path would lead them to HttR if they want more. I was initially worried that if HttR came out with a modern set of scenarios then FPG would be toast and 3 years of my life would be wasted, but now I see that they serve distinct strata of the market and there will continue to be a place for FPG.

Zen, some specific points.
1. The Mission Briefings are supposed to tell you roughly what you are up against and what the surrounding circumstances are. I see now that the NATO briefing for Soviet Tank Rush is a little thin in that department! Sorry about that. We should have taken a little more time to make sure that the briefings contain the core info that falls under 'intelligence preparation of the battlefield'. I'll stick that on my list.

2. Sudden Death. This was a very endearing feature of the original SimCan games that FPG is based on. It has been hard to translate properly though and you picked up on the weakness - the viability of the 'flame-out' defence. Clearly no player that loses 80%+ of his forces should be awarded a 'win' of any sort. I'm pretty sure that the sudden death victory points were awarded correctly but it is too late to tell now.

3. AI on the defence. The premise of the backstory of the game is that the whole war could last barely a week (logistics constraints) and that both sides knew it and sought to maximize results why they could. The AI will just not sit back and twiddle it's thumbs for more than a couple of hours tops, and sometimes not even that much. Yes, that forces it to make mistakes that a human can capitalize on, but war is like that too. The playtesters found early on that a more rational AI was actually more boring to play and we cranked up the 'seize the initiative' rule accordingly. One of the things I am working on right now that is a better conduct of the defence and securing the objective sectors for the cases where one is chosen,
4. Engineers and leg infantry are coming but I am working on so many other things first that are coming slowly! Actually a few engineers are in the some of the scenarios already but mostly they were virtualized to unclog the game mechanics for new players. If you want to blow or build a bridge, etc you just park a combat unit in the spot and have them whistle up the virtual engineers. 30 minutes later the job is done.
5. Units should withdraw earlier if they are losing the duel. I am already working a little on that. It can be hard to balance the weightings in all circumstances though!
6. Maps and Elevations. Yes it is hard to pick out the map elevations. I just found a code snippet that will let me convert the underlying heightmap to contour lines instead but now I need to get back the original heightmap from the map guy. When I do you should see an update quite quickly. I have spent a considerable portion of the post-game release period working on the map rendering engine already and this feature (plus wreck markers) is at the top of my list.
7. If you like FPG then you should also get HttR. It has a less flashy graphical look but much deeper game play and as Hartford688 pointed out, you can set your own subordinates to AI control and let them do the low level stuff while you concentrate on the big picture.

Thanks, back to FPG and getting the attack helicopters to go on the ‘hunt’ a little more frequently.

Cheers, Rob.



(in reply to Hartford688)
Post #: 6
RE: A few newbie comments - 5/1/2005 6:48:57 PM   
Zen

 

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Hartford688,

Thanks for the HttR and BiN information. I will probably buy HttR at some point, although I believe the sequel, Conquest of the Aegean, is coming out relatively soon, so perhaps I will hold off until then.

Yes, those elaborate games like WitP make me drool and think, "If I only had the time..." Maybe someday, when I retire! Of course by that time, Matrix will be producing WitP 12, playable only on holodecks with 200 TB of RAM.

Zen

(in reply to IronManBeta)
Post #: 7
RE: A few newbie comments - 5/1/2005 7:01:42 PM   
Zen

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 4/28/2005
Status: offline
Robert,

Thanks for the thorough and interesting reply. In my view, you guys are on the right track with FPG.

A quick question: why is a dot shown on one of my units when it has been spotted instead of the reverse -- when it spots an enemy. It seems backwards since it sort of gives away some element of surprise. For example, in the scenario I played last night (the 2nd one, something like "Red Hammer"?), a dot appeared on one of my forward units, yet my units could see no enemies. I left the spotted unit there as sort of a test (plus I was reluctant to move it since it was dug in) and, sure enough, on the next turn here comes the artillery barrage, which seemed to be extra lethal since, I suppose, it had a spotter. I still could see no enemy units.

Now, if I had been playing seriously, I would have moved that spotted unit as soon as I saw the dot appear. Having that information doesn't seem right to me. Or have I misunderstood how the dot works?

Zen

(in reply to IronManBeta)
Post #: 8
RE: A few newbie comments - 5/2/2005 12:42:43 AM   
IronManBeta


Posts: 4132
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Burlington, Ontario
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A quick read of this makes me think that you do happen to have it backwards. The little dot in the lower right corner of the counter means that the unit itself has been spotted. A unit may be aware of enemy activity in a location but not enough to have a fix on it to engage in combat. In this case it will know it has been spotted by the enemy but the enemy will not yet be revealed. Your instinct to move it promptly is the correct one!

Cheers, Rob.

(in reply to Zen)
Post #: 9
RE: A few newbie comments - 5/28/2005 8:22:26 PM   
nukkxx5058


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From: France
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What are WEGO and IGO/UGO systems ?
I already reda that on matrix site but I have no idea what does it mean ..
thx

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Post #: 10
RE: A few newbie comments - 5/28/2005 11:39:32 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
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From: Newark, OH
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Nukkxx,

WEGO is a fancy way of saying WE both GO at the same time. FPG and Combat Mission Series work this way. It usually breaks down to both side issue orders and then movement/combat occurs simultaniously.

IGO/UGO is I move and shoot and then you move and shoot. Most board games are this way and I think the Panzer General games worked that way.

Just some wargamer lingo.

Hope this helped.

S!

Cap'n D

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 11
RE: A few newbie comments - 5/29/2005 3:48:44 AM   
nukkxx5058


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From: France
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OK, thanks. So "WEGO" means , in my vocabulary, "simultaneous turn base game" and the other one means "turn by turn" game ?

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 12
RE: A few newbie comments - 5/29/2005 4:18:54 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
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nukkxx,

As long as you mean my turn and your turn, yes.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 13
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