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Total Build Out and 1.5

 
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Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:08:17 AM   
Grunt


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/17/2004
From: Idaho, USA
Status: offline 		Is it safe to assume that the TBO restrictions are still in place under 1.5? That will greatly impact upgrade path choices.
Post #: 1
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:10:02 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		what is a total build out restriction?

(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 2
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:16:39 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I would imagine that TBO is out the window with the ability to change aircraft types. For example, you can now change the Ki-36 to the Ki-15 or Ki-46 III at the start of the game. There is no longer a TBO of 39 for the Ki-36.

It's a whole new dimension now.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 3
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:19:51 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		tbo restriction? number of planes?

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 4
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:22:12 AM   
Grunt


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/17/2004
From: Idaho, USA
Status: offline 		There is a limit to how many planes of a type can be produced. I don't have the information with me right now but you can find a spreadsheet on Spooky's site.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 5
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:24:57 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		In 1.4 and all previous patches, the upgrade path was set in stone. Using the Ki-36 as an example again, it could not upgrade at all. There are 2 Ki-36 units, one of 12 planes and one of 27 planes. The maximum number of Ki-36s in the game (or total build out) is 39 planes.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 6
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:26:16 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I meant to say - the maximum number of planes in the game at any one time....

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 7
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:31:41 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		is there even a limit, I have thousands and thousands

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 8
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:40:01 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Now the TBO for, say, any IJNAF fighter is the sum of all the IJNAF fighter strengths in the game.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 9
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:40:02 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Yes try to further cllarify for FREEBOY ... prior to 1.4 the Japanese player had to play a game within a game to plan to be able to produce planes to fill up a given number of slots at a given point in time and to be able to provide replacements for losses for these slots over a given period of time. This took at least a noticable amount of side-spreadsheet work ( I did my own ) ... to for example be able to build out the OscarII slots ( comming mostly from Nates ) once they become available ( on or before Jan 43 ) ... you might want to build out the TBO [ during the period in question] for these in 6 months and thus would need to plan occordingly ... so I'd increase Nate production and support OscarII research ... together this capacity would represent my OscarII production capacity once OscarIIs came on line ... so if you had a TBO of 600 planes by June 1943 ... a monthly production of 150 would build out the TBO in 4 months ... and you'd have 2 months ( 300 planes worth ) of replacements by the end of the 6 month planning period ...

Now in 1.4 you had to do this for EACH and EVERY upgrade path that you cared about ... our understanding is that this entire exercise goes down to toliet in 1.5 which is fine from most perspectives ... though it may give the Japanese player a significantly greater flexability than he had historically as he still does not have to pay any "gearing" costs to change over his factories from building airplane X to building airplane Y ... even though such change over historically was quite a big deal. The designers did contemplate adding this "cost" in 1.5 but decided against it. The somewhat artifical upgrade paths ... did place a constraint on the Japanese player - in lieu of paying "gearing costs" which is now gone.

But should make some happy !


(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 10
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 1:47:17 AM   
Grunt


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/17/2004
From: Idaho, USA
Status: offline 		If I understood the concept correctly, and I'm not saying I did , you could produce more Ki-36's and they'd go into the pool and be available for replacements for those two squadrons. But there was a limit to how many you could produce because the pool plus the on-map quantities couldn't exceed a certain number.

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 11
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 2:43:35 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		ok, you are sayingthat there is a limit due to the airgroups themselves comrising a finite number and thus a limit, not an arbitrary one created.. I certainly would be surprised as the US get so many planes etc .. thanks again for the clarification

(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 12
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 2:57:46 AM   
Grunt


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/17/2004
From: Idaho, USA
Status: offline 		Right, the number was not arbitrary. I think it was based on historical production of actual Japanese aircraft types. But if I understand Mike Solli above, the total build out is now the total of all a/c of a type. So hypothetically, if Japan produced 3000 A6M2's and 3000 A6M3's historically. That would be all you could get in 1.4 for each type. Now with 1.5 you can get 6000 and it's up to you what types you make.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 13
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 6:17:16 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I think that you can build as many as you are able given your facories , but are limited in the deployable amounts by the actual units in the game.. I think we are saying something similar but from a different perspective...

(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 14
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 4/30/2005 6:23:55 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Yup this is correct ... you can build 100,000 Zeros ... but if all your units are full ... the extra 98,000 just sit.


(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 15
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 5/1/2005 6:46:30 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		or the over xxx gets destroyed and some percentage goes back.. not sure what the figure is oafter which auto destruction, of planes happens.. maybe 1000?? it has been awhile since my days of Jap glory

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 16
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 5/1/2005 7:23:00 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Yes you're right - there is a limit that triggers auto-destruction - and in the rule book that might even be called TOTAL BUILD OUT ... as it includes the full ready strength of all air units using that plane whether already arrived or is scheduled to arrive ( at least according to the rule book page 184 ) !


(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 17
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 5/1/2005 9:42:46 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		So we still need to have some idea of overall TBO, no? Where would I get this info?

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 18
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 5/1/2005 11:28:19 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		I got it by going through all the air units on the map ... and all the scheduled to arrive air units in the reinforcement track and keying all that into a spreadsheet with air-unit, size and date ... so I could calculate TBO by date ... someone said there was a spreadsheet on Spook's that did this ... but it wasn't there when I did mine ... but either do your own .. or grab somebody else's !


(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 19
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 5/2/2005 1:11:21 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Yep, I have that spreadsheet. I guess I can just tinker with it to get new "Total Total Buid Out" numbers for each plane type. Total up the TBO for A6M2, A6M3, A6M5, Claudes, etc., and you've got the total IJN fighter TBO, right?

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 20
RE: Total Build Out and 1.5 - 5/2/2005 4:43:52 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Well you have to check both units on the map AND arriving units .. just went and checked ... in the "stock" scenario16 for example ... there are also some Jack's and A6M5c's ...



(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 21
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