Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Japanese turn 1 Invasions

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Japanese turn 1 Invasions Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 4:34:16 AM   
lordmaul13

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 3/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hi,

I’ve only played scenario 15 against the AI so I’m curious what everyone does when they play a PBEM. As the Japanese player where do you like to invade on turn 1? How much will you exploit the first turn movement bonus the Japanese get? How much exploitation do you think is actually fair? As the Allied player what kind of house rule restrictions on the first turn invasions do you like to see in place? Obviously I'm talking about historic 1st turn off.

lordmaul13

_____________________________

Then let the trumpets sound the tucket-sonance and the note to mount!
For our approach shall so much dare the field England shall couch down in fear and yield.
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 4:57:27 AM   
Blackwatch_it


Posts: 247
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		I just finished my new (1.5) turn 1. You can see the AAR here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp%3Fforumid%3D10%26p%3D%26tmode%3D1%26smode%3D1

(in reply to lordmaul13)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 5:02:42 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		and I am the Allied player, I put up a map showing where the Japanese hit December 7th and 8th. Its pretty impressive.

This is our second game, we had to restart because of the aircraft going to sunk CVs bug so Blackwatch has had practice, I suspect his invasions are about the optimal for a free playing Japan. For his sake, (as he knows) they need to be.

Hey the Prince of Wales just found CL Isuzu and 4 DDs of Palembang. 3 DDs sank and Isuzu is on fire with heavy damage, woot!

(in reply to lordmaul13)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 5:03:27 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		and the Isuzu goes down along with the last DD in the second round.

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 5:04:29 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		And they just rolled into the anchorage and sunk 3 APs, I put Spooner in charge, he has an agressive rank of 65 and is kicking little yellow ass.

This posts brought to you live as the combat replay runs on my other machine.

< Message edited by Tom Hunter -- 4/30/2005 6:11:28 AM >

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 5:30:36 AM   
Blackwatch_it


Posts: 247
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

And they just rolled into the anchorage and sunk 3 APs, I put Leach in charge, he has an agressive rank of 65 and is kicking little yellow ass.

This posts brought to you live as the combat replay runs on my other machine.

The report of you little success is yet in my AAR

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 5:31:41 AM   
Iridium


Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Something tells me that the taskforce of 2 Kongo's and a couple CA's isn't around to protect those invasion forces.

I'm assuming that this is near Khota Baru or Singapore.

Edit: Scratch that, I just noticed you said Palembang...

< Message edited by Iridium -- 4/30/2005 5:32:45 AM >

_____________________________

Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

"Hey, a packet of googly eyes! I'm so taking these." Hank Venture

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 6:15:55 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		The Kongos are off Mersing right now. If Repulse had not taken the 4 bomb hits I would have sent the re-inforced force Z after them, but she was, the damage was pretty severe and I can't send PoW to fight two BBs.

So instead I smashed up a weaker force, just as Blackwatch did at Pearl.

(in reply to Iridium)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 6:18:30 AM   
lordmaul13

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 3/8/2005
Status: offline 		This conversation is lovely but it isn't doing much to answer the questions I asked.

The link, on the other hand, has been a help. I've looked at both of your AARs and there is some interesting stuff.

So I've heard from the anything goes crowd, does anyone from the let's do things a little more historically realistic crowd have anything to say?

lordmaul13

_____________________________

Then let the trumpets sound the tucket-sonance and the note to mount!
For our approach shall so much dare the field England shall couch down in fear and yield.

(in reply to Iridium)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 6:22:38 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lordmaul13

This conversation is lovely but it isn't doing much to answer the questions I asked.

The link, on the other hand, has been a help. I've looked at both of your AARs and there is some interesting stuff.

So I've heard from the anything goes crowd, does anyone from the let's do things a little more historically realistic crowd have anything to say?

lordmaul13


You could do a search on Mogami's house rules for turn 1.

(in reply to lordmaul13)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 9:11:05 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lordmaul13

This conversation is lovely but it isn't doing much to answer the questions I asked.

The link, on the other hand, has been a help. I've looked at both of your AARs and there is some interesting stuff.

So I've heard from the anything goes crowd, does anyone from the let's do things a little more historically realistic crowd have anything to say?

lordmaul13


It seems a lot of people think that using KB to slaughter the PI instead, think of it as cheating simply because everyone knows there's a ton of submarines there. If the real war had started without KB attacking Pearl though, just a declaration of war without immmediate hostilities, then most would consider a PH attack a cheat. I don't know if there are any other targets worthy of sending that large of a task force for surprise though.


(in reply to lordmaul13)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 10:29:30 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

It seems a lot of people think that using KB to slaughter the PI instead, think of it as cheating simply because everyone knows there's a ton of submarines there. If the real war had started without KB attacking Pearl though, just a declaration of war without immmediate hostilities, then most would consider a PH attack a cheat. I don't know if there are any other targets worthy of sending that large of a task force for surprise though.



I'm very much the historian, and I wouldn't regard an opponant that chose to use KB
against the PI as being ahistoric. KB's speed and the relatively regular operations of
Jap CV's off the China Coast prior to the war make this a realistic possibility. The
"gameyness" of the ploy is that is takes advantage of the game's deployment of a
lot of shipping in positions very vulnerable to port attack in Manilla---especially the
subs.

But it's a WHOLE LOT more historical than the Japanese making a first day Invasion
of Southern Malaya or the DEI or any of the other areas that can only be reached after
a multi-day sail through heavily trafficed areas. Basically, you should probably play
that if the Japanese plan to invade anything they didn't invade historically on the 1st
day of the war, then the "suprise" should be turned off and the Allies allowed to react.

_____________________________


(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 12
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 10:34:32 PM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Wouldn't the Japanese have known about the Subs at PI? How is a surprise attack cheating?

_____________________________

quote:

Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 13
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 11:34:32 PM   
lordmaul13

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 3/8/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for the answers guys. I'll do that search on Mogami's house rules.

What does everyone think about a turn 1 invasion in the PI?

lordmaul13

_____________________________

Then let the trumpets sound the tucket-sonance and the note to mount!
For our approach shall so much dare the field England shall couch down in fear and yield.

(in reply to Drex)
Post #: 14
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 4/30/2005 11:35:43 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		It works.. surprise works .. invasions to Moritai and Menado too

(in reply to lordmaul13)
Post #: 15
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/1/2005 2:21:23 AM   
lordmaul13

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 3/8/2005
Status: offline 		I did that search I mentioned and it appears this subject has been discussed far more than I imagined. Sorry if I’ve been redundant.

Anyhow, that last question I asked was a bit vague.

I suppose what I’m getting at is; when does it get too gamey?

I’ll hit the AI on every base in Mendanao, Legaspi, Naga, Aparri, Vigan, Lingayen, and Jolo. But that’s because I want to just beat the pi** out of the AI. I know that’s pretty gamey, to say the least.

I think that against a human I’d go after the bases the computer already has set up for me. That should be –let me check my notes—Aparri, Legaspi, and Vigan. Plus I might want to hit the bases that I have units already prepared for. Off the top of my head, that would add Jolo and Naga. I also like to go after Lingayen. That’s my favorite hex. It’s right next door to Clark Field which, when I take it, will split the island in three parts and it has a big airbase that I can start using really quickly. Of course that doesn’t work out that well against AI because it runs everything into Bataan looong before you can take CF. Is hitting those half dozen bases (with those magic teleporting transports ) too gamey?

If I had to choose I’d have to go with Jolo and Lingayen as the two I’d consider “vital”.

There I go, giving away strategy to potential opponents.

lordmaul13

_____________________________

Then let the trumpets sound the tucket-sonance and the note to mount!
For our approach shall so much dare the field England shall couch down in fear and yield.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 16
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/1/2005 3:02:02 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		If you are really going to do it, target every single size 4+ air base. It will mean that you have crippled any large strike aircraft and your ships will be a tad safer for quite a while. Ensure you land base units *with* the invasions so you can immediately fly your own aircraft out of there the following turn giving you the ability to waylay any escaping ships.

You can theoretically close the SRA on Dec 8th making any escape impossible.

Target list:

Amboina , Kendari, Davao, Cagayan (bombard here only then to Menado), Legaspi, Laoag, Appari, Rabaul (cut aircraft escape)

Troops reload (leave base force) from Kendari and land at Kupang (trap dutch)

Troops reload (leave base force) from Amboina and land at Menado (remove annoyance)

If you are going to do it, do it right

Do not bombard other airfields as you want them intact in shape to fly aircraft immediately.

(in reply to lordmaul13)
Post #: 17
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/1/2005 3:33:06 AM   
lordmaul13

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 3/8/2005
Status: offline 		Sure, I could do that but

Ah, the Hell with it. Forget I even asked.

lordmaul13

_____________________________

Then let the trumpets sound the tucket-sonance and the note to mount!
For our approach shall so much dare the field England shall couch down in fear and yield.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 18
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/1/2005 9:39:28 PM   
kfmiller41


Posts: 1063
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Saint Marys, Ga
Status: offline 		Will try and answer your question. I have played Japan almost every game against 4 different players. In one game an opponent has asked me to confine my invasions to PI, Bornoe and malaya and the islands Japan wnet after historically. That still clovers alot of grond. In games where I have been able to go after anything I like I have found that against a decent human player your forces are not going to come away without heavy loses, as you cant cover your landing with air power. I tried to invade areas listed by Frag above and lost alot of APs and AKs to allied planes, even though they were not numerous. In my opinion letting Japan do what she wants in the beginning isn't gamey, as Japan has a very slim chance to win at all (as it did historically) so there really sint any reason not to let the Jap player take some risks. Just my two cents


_____________________________

You have the ability to arouse various emotions in me: please select carefully.

(in reply to lordmaul13)
Post #: 19
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/1/2005 9:51:41 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Lordmaul, I think you raise a good question. As the IJN player, I want more freedom; as the Allied player, I want something like the historical first turn. I've played 4 PBEMs as Japan, but only one from December 7. In that, my opponent asked that we go with the Historical First Turn, and we did (though we had to restart to fix a glitch in that scenario).

If I had to do it again, I might agree to attack only those targets attacked historically, but not use the "historical first turn" because that turn makes tactical decisions (as opposed to strategic ones) that I wouldn't choose. E.g., in Malaya, the historical first turn has you landing supply in APs, which takes forever. The AI is also quite bombardment-happy in the historical first turn, which is OK if you don't plan to use the target base for your own aircraft soon. Likewise, the attack on PH itself I might fiddle with. So I could see going with the "strategic" historical first turn but allowing the IJN the option to change tactics.

(in reply to kfmiller41)
Post #: 20
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/1/2005 10:13:25 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		Grotius,

Glad you feel that way cause I agree with you and I am thinking about challenging you to a scenario 15 game as soon as school lets out for the summer. (and once I have a spreadsheet on jap production worked out. )

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 21
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/4/2005 11:28:26 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I don't think my turn 1 limitations hurt Japan one tiny whit but they do remove the "magic".
I'll stack my turn 1 against anyone elses. It is true I don't have Betty flying Naval Strikes on Dec 9th but that is because that was not in reality an option the Japanese had.
I don't like hearing how tough the Japanese player is going to have it in 1943. He should just get used to dealing with reality on Dec 7 1941 and then 1943 will not come as such a shock. Japanese transports could not fly. Bombers cannot fly to an airfield, arm and launch 2 strikes the same day. I don't refrain from doing this because I want to be Japan in 1941-46 not "Conquest of Earth 2560" I get a little sick of people who do things they know were not possible and blame it on the game system. You know transfer missions should be plotted to occur during the airphases and would prevent this but it would have caused the AI major glitches (it would have scattered parts of airgroups all over the map) Don't do it!!!! And really if you must do it don't post how brilliant the plan then is based completly on exploiting the system by teleporting transports and ever ready bombers.
The landing that occur in the historic turn 1 are for the AI. If you read your history you won't find them happening on Dec 7th.
If you can't make a sound plan without exploits your only cheating yourself. The impression you will delvelop about the Pacific War will be imcomplete and incorrect.
So what you don't sink every AK based at Manila? So what those old submarines get away. Thats the way it really was.
I still have fun playing the game. It's not because I am afraid of these super move ones or bizaro Japanese invasions it's just I want to fight WWII. What most Allied players fail to understand that the same magic the Japanese use can be used by the Allied player.
If the Japanese send the horde to India the entire remainder of map is empty. Japan begins the war with 3 divisions trying to cover all those bases The aircraft are Claudes and Nates. Load up a few divisons on several hundred AK and invade the Home Islands. The IJN is off on a great adventure counting on exploits and fear to allow them to go where they want.
I should quit playing Japan and only play Allies.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 5/4/2005 11:32:12 AM >

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 22
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/4/2005 5:41:05 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		FWIW, Mogami, I mostly agree with you. I think the game is quite capable of giving us a realistic treatment of the Pacific war, but it requires house rules or self-restraint or both. Against the AI, I impose house rules on myself, and the result is a game as the Allies that is eerily similar to the historical progression. I took Guadalcanal in August 42, for example.

quote:

Glad you feel that way cause I agree with you and I am thinking about challenging you to a scenario 15 game as soon as school lets out for the summer.

Yep, Cap, I liked the setup we used, and I had a great time playing you. FWIW, I'm also going to have more free time come summer, but I also have two friends who have challenged me to two separate PBEM games. I think one of those may not materialize, so we'll see. I'm not sure I can handle two PBEMs, much less three.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 23
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/4/2005 7:04:30 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		My feeling is that if the Japanese player wants to invade anywhere beyond the outer ring of allied territory, then surprise and historical first turn should be off. These moves would have been detected and the allies would not have been caught sleeping in this case. What is gamey is for a Japanese player to insist on first turn suprise and invasions deep within the allied perimeter.

Russ, I use a small deviation of your air transfer rule. If the transfer distance could be made within two or three hours of flying time, then I do not ground my air units. If it's longer, then they're grounded.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 24
RE: Japanese turn 1 Invasions - 5/4/2005 7:53:21 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

My feeling is that if the Japanese player wants to invade anywhere beyond the outer ring of allied territory, then surprise and historical first turn should be off.


Frankly, if the Japanese player wants to alter anything, turn off surprise, simpler that way and then anything goes and no one complains.

_____________________________


(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 25
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Japanese turn 1 Invasions Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.031