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RE: Cancon 2005 - 6/29/2004 6:14:50 PM

Mziln

Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Are you talking about that A.I less beta? the graphics were dreadfull imo.I hope for the same quality as "War in the Pacific", they truly look great.

I prefer standard NATO symbols vs. "tank and plane icons" in a strategic game. I liked the mini-maps that showed the global terrain, convoy routes, and etc.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 31

We Are Taking This Game Design Very Serious - 6/30/2004 5:58:57 PM

David Heath

Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline

Hi Guys

Just a little word from the top. We are taking this design very seriously. I am sure this game will take some time to complete but in the end you will be happy. There are major inferface changes being done and as soon as some screenshots are available trust us we will post them and get the web site fully running.

David

< Message edited by David Heath -- 6/30/2004 10:15:39 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 32

RE: We Are Taking This Game Design Very Serious - 6/30/2004 6:44:14 PM

stretch

Posts: 636
Joined: 12/17/2001
Status: offline

Awesome.

(in reply to David Heath)

Post #: 33

RE: It's a disgrace - 7/1/2004 4:24:26 AM

IronManBeta

Posts: 4132
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline

1. I met with 6 plus gamers that identified themselves as World in Flames players and had an in depth talk with each of them. I was looking for the things that engaged them most about the game and what tended to turn them off. I was amazed at how little consensus there was on the former. Three people said that they really liked controlling economic production and there was no real commonality beyond that! I take it as the sign of a superior game that so many different needs were satisfied out of one box.

Three people also wanted Days of Decision thrown in but did not agree on which version they liked best.

In terms of dislikes it was mainly about the sheer physical size of the boardgame and the inability to protect it from pets and family while not in use.

My queries re doing the impulse system by email and AI levels and expectations met with all kinds of different answers and no one theme emerged. Darn, so much for easy short cuts.

2. It is way premature to talk about screen shots yet. Flashpoint Germany is in the pipeline ahead of it but we should finally get it out the door in July and then our art guy can get busy.

Cheers, Rob.

(in reply to Arnir)

Post #: 34

RE: It's a disgrace - 7/18/2004 11:11:58 AM

fhbgamer

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/22/2003
Status: offline

quote:

On top of that from what I know from following WIF before the code is probably a mess. I'm sure we'll start getting information when the programmer assigned has sorted through the code and is actually starting on moving forward with the project. To say that it's been shelved when you have no idea how many hours the programmer has been sifting through the code is pretty lame. Maybe you should buy the rights and show us how it's done properly and get the code finished in no time.

Having been on the Alpha team testing and Beta Testing before the rights were sold to matrix: Posh on your code mess. If you know Delphi you could figure it out in about 6-8 weeks I have done so on several languages that I had to self teach myself first then figure out what the prior folks did.
The Game was about 80 percent playable. We'd try something weird and find a problem. most of it had to do with production and convoy lines.
The Basic move and combat sequences were IMO tight already.
The real problem will be Matrix may well wish to NOT use Delphi etc. as
the previous programmer (who work part time on it as he had to have a real job to allow him to work on this at all).
This will then require them to rewrite the language in their chosen language. If an AI is involved that most likely would need to do this
(I'm not up on my Delphi and AI theory these days).
If I had the funds I would buy the rights and Hire the original Programmer to finish it. Matrix might want to consider offering him a contract to do so
He might just take a Leave of Absence etc. and do it!
I know originally there was to be no AI or PBEM. We of the Wif community
said fine do it because most of us wanted it for 2 reasons, Strategy testing
or lack of Space.
They could always add those latter with an expansion CD

Matix will no doubt make it a great game unfortunately I would guess it will be a few modules short of what we play on the board version
(Those come out about every 2 years).
Fred -The Eternal Gamer

(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)

Post #: 35

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/5/2005 12:40:29 PM

Samsonite

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline

I posted this topic 9 months ago, but it seems that the topic is still very contemporary. The game is not out yet.

(in reply to Samsonite)

Post #: 36

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/5/2005 3:13:03 PM

coregames

Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Samsonite

I posted this topic 9 months ago, but it seems that the topic is still very contemporary. The game is not out yet.

You posted 9 months ago, and this is still only your fourth post? You seem to have a narrow agenda Samsonite, and not a positive or uplifting one at that. If you expected MWiF to be released in 9 months, I would offer the observation that you are living in a dreamworld; this game is going to take a heck of a lot longer to develop than that.

Your name begs the question: Do you bring a lot of baggage with you into your assessment of this topic?

(in reply to Samsonite)

Post #: 37

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 5:54:09 AM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

Now take it easy big fella. Samsonite has a point. Somehow we were all supposed to get excited about matrix games taking over WiF. Well I for one am not. Like the programmer previously posted, in all but a small area the game was pretty tight. So now were back at square one. (Excuse me-I have to scream) THIS SUCKS!!!

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 38

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 6:05:35 AM

sol_invictus

Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

Just follow the EIA game, that should relieve some pre-release stress.

I think I have been following that game for three years. All in good time.

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 39

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 6:33:36 AM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

The EIA game? I'm not sure what you mean Arinvald. But I can tell you this: if your trying to get me interested in another game, it ain't happening. I'm here to find WiF, and not some homogenized,watered-down, lowfat version either but with all the fat and carcinogens! This game can take 6 months or more to play.That's why I play it. I like it that way. You can't tell me on the one one hand you're scrubbing a very good game to start a project that'll take another 7 years and then milk my attention to sell me another product! I wont stand for it.

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 40

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 6:45:45 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

This is where it is, sports fans. WIF as a computer game had gone nowhere. The code that had been developed was haphazard, lacked direction to a final product, and was doomed to be another War in the Pacific, and maybe even worse, because it completely lacked an AI (and believe me, if you want to sell more than 500 games, you'd better have something at least resembling an AI).

WIF as a computer game is more than two years away from fruition, and it may be far more than that.

So sit down, order a Leinenkugel, ogle the waitresses, and say, "Gott in Himmel. Dieses ist nicht Munschen. Prosit! Ein Prosit!"

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 41

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 7:45:15 AM

David Heath

Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline

Hi Guys

CWiF was in development I think for seven years before Matrix took it over. Now I hope to take a lot less time but the truth is we are having major issues on how we can truly make a fair AI let alone a good one. This game is far beyond the 3rd Reich game published years ago and that took well over 5 years. Empires In Arms has taught us that converting board games to computer games may not really be the best idea. It has taken us one and a half years longer to complete EiA and we are still working at it. The bottom line is we will not do the project unless we as gamers feel its playable and can do it right.

Matrix likes to tell the customer how it is......... and in this case everyone better sit down and just keep on enjoying the table top version for the time being. This game is far from being ready. I plan to have a big sit down with Robert and the rest of the team at Origins and try to get a better handle on this game. Robert and I have already had a few long talks aboutt this we have not found an easy answer yet.

We promise to do it right before we do it fast.

David

< Message edited by David Heath -- 5/6/2005 7:52:44 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 42

Given a choice... - 5/6/2005 8:51:41 AM

Greyshaft

Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor
�in all but a small area the game was pretty tight.

You mean that the wrapped up non-AI demos that you got to test were pretty tight? Did you ever see any logic diagrams or entity relationships for the AI code? Was the AI even started when you got to play with the demos? The best software application in the world will go to heck in a handbasket if you try and push it beyond its design parameters and the original CwiF was not designed for an AI. �We�ll develop it later? ROFLMAO!!!�

You may consider the original CwiF as an interface of great beauty but I�d rather have a beautiful AI with a $2 interface rather than a $2 AI with a beautiful interface. IMHO the only professional approach is to write a complete specification first and then salvage any reusable code from the original CwiF only if it fits the new specification. For my money I�d be prepared for Matrix to start again with an empty code box as long as they get it right.

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 43

Marinacci's code - 5/6/2005 10:07:38 AM

coregames

Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

I�d be prepared for Matrix to start again with an empty code box as long as they get it right.

Most likely, almost none of Chris Marinacci's actual original code will be used. The lessons learned from the challenges he faced, however, might be indispensable. As far as AI goes, his version had nothing resembling that implemented when it was abandoned. Matrix will be considered innovative in the extreme if MWiF's AI plays even passably well (assuming they don't radically alter the game).

< Message edited by coregames -- 5/6/2005 10:08:46 AM >

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 44

RE: Marinacci's code - 5/6/2005 5:25:53 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
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Let me help translate this. Matrix bought this marinacci demo. Which they don't plan on using. Thus, squelching any chance of it being released as a pbem game. Not because they didn't want it to compete with their releases(my ass) but because the infinite wisdom of matrix says that a game without an AI won't sell more than 500 copies. Matrix is screwing guys like me that just want to play the freaking game with their friends far away. Well you know what you can do with your freaking AI don't you? How much do you guys want for it? I'm serious. As long as you're going to hold the demo hostage, at least let us WiF players how much is the ransome. And please- ask me to buy a matrix product. I dare you. If you think i'm the only person in the world that realizes what matrix is doing to dedicated WiF players for the sake of an AI that anyone who has played the game will tell you is not only NOT part of the WiF experience -but a good ten years of programming away I will say confidently that you are indeed mistaken. Have a nice life, David.

Pasternaski has outlined to me 500 people that should never buy a Matrix product as long as they live. I have a list that's been posted for over 8 years now of players just waiting to play WiF pbem. I will inform each one of them individually ,if necesary, of what has become of their beloved game. Did ADG know you guys were going to do this? I don't think so.

< Message edited by macgregor -- 5/6/2005 5:55:39 PM >

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 45

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 5:56:57 PM

wfzimmerman

Posts: 660
Joined: 10/22/2003
Status: offline

I will say in an even-tempered way that this is pretty darned discouraging.

Let's touch up the Marinacci CWIF and release it ASAP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Hi Guys

CWiF was in development I think for seven years before Matrix took it over. Now I hope to take a lot less time but the truth is we are having major issues on how we can truly make a fair AI let alone a good one. This game is far beyond the 3rd Reich game published years ago and that took well over 5 years. Empires In Arms has taught us that converting board games to computer games may not really be the best idea. It has taken us one and a half years longer to complete EiA and we are still working at it. The bottom line is we will not do the project unless we as gamers feel its playable and can do it right.

Matrix likes to tell the customer how it is......... and in this case everyone better sit down and just keep on enjoying the table top version for the time being. This game is far from being ready. I plan to have a big sit down with Robert and the rest of the team at Origins and try to get a better handle on this game. Robert and I have already had a few long talks aboutt this we have not found an easy answer yet.

We promise to do it right before we do it fast.

David

(in reply to David Heath)

Post #: 46

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 6:11:19 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Guys,

We are holding nothing hostage. The request for a pre-AI release is something we will consider and discuss with Rob at Origins.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to wfzimmerman)

Post #: 47

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 8:04:20 PM

Cheesehead

Posts: 418
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Appleton, Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

Empires In Arms has taught us that converting board games to computer games may not really be the best idea.

I've said this before on this site and I'll say it again: If matrix realizes that the problems with AI and PBEM are too great to overcome in producing an exact, computer version of WiF...create a whole new game based on WiF but not necessarily the same game. I would just like to see a massive, detailed, WWII grand strategy game that can be played PBEM. It should have the scale of WiF (or even larger) and it should approximate the 100 hours or so of play time to complete. It would be great if it incorporates many of the features of WiF but the designers shouldn't handcuff themselves to the boardgame, as it obviously appears this is greatly hampering development.

I understand MacGregor's frustration, especially when you have no opponents nearby, as was my case until recently. But most of the WiF purists that I have heard from have serious doubts about the plausibility of PBEM with MWiF. If it is heresy to design a computer game after WiF but not faithfully recreate it exactly as the boardgame, then call it something else.

_____________________________

You can't fight in here...this is the war room!

(in reply to David Heath)

Post #: 48

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 9:10:05 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

The crazy thing is that we could be playtesting the demo pbem right now -and instead of posting thoughts on some utopian game that doesn't exist, we could be posting concrete ideas on how to expedite the pbem process. For god's sake man - people are playing this game using these laborious virtual boardgame templates! Are you guys blind? Or do you you just dislike us? Seriously though, you are sticking it to us.

"Before this is over I only hope to get the chance to use you the way you've used him"

< Message edited by macgregor -- 5/6/2005 9:29:35 PM >

(in reply to Cheesehead)

Post #: 49

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 9:10:10 PM

coregames

Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

quote:

Empires In Arms has taught us that converting board games to computer games may not really be the best idea.

I've said this before on this site and I'll say it again: If matrix realizes that the problems with AI and PBEM are too great to overcome in producing an exact, computer version of WiF...create a whole new game based on WiF but not necessarily the same game. I would just like to see a massive, detailed, WWII grand strategy game that can be played PBEM. It should have the scale of WiF (or even larger) and it should approximate the 100 hours or so of play time to complete. It would be great if it incorporates many of the features of WiF but the designers shouldn't handcuff themselves to the boardgame, as it obviously appears this is greatly hampering development.

I understand MacGregor's frustration, especially when you have no opponents nearby, as was my case until recently. But most of the WiF purists that I have heard from have serious doubts about the plausibility of PBEM with MWiF. If it is heresy to design a computer game after WiF but not faithfully recreate it exactly as the boardgame, then call it something else.

I believe that purism is not the only issue here. WiF has evolved through 20 years of extensive playtesting by thousands of people worldwide, and numerous revisions, to get to the point it's at now. Perhaps Matrix could start essentially from scratch and produce a game that fulfills your wishes, but to match WiF's current quality it might require another 20 years of playtesting and revision to get back to the level WiF is at today. By departing on a tangent in the name of PBEM, Matrix may well find itself longing for the headaches of developing EiA; don't discard 20 years of the game's evolution please. Perhaps there is a way to deliver PBEM, through the AI, scripting for the non-phasing side, or an optional streamlined mode.

AI is another subject entirely, one I know must be causing Robert Crandall and company fits. It sounds like they may be considering a pre-AI release; I just hope it is WiF, and not simply based on it.

< Message edited by coregames -- 5/6/2005 9:13:54 PM >

(in reply to Cheesehead)

Post #: 50

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 9:36:41 PM

David Heath

Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline

Hi Macgregor

We are not holding anything hostage... please. We have talked with both Chris and ADG and they wanted both AI and a more streamed lined interface. Without all shouting of if there are truly enough people really just looking for PBEM then this could be the happy solution for everyone.

Macgregor instead of attacking us lets work together and see if we can agree on a solution.

_____________________________

(in reply to wfzimmerman)

Post #: 51

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 9:41:10 PM

macgregor

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Joined: 2/10/2004
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Paa-leeez !(2 words) We're not starting from scratch here. Did you(coregames) play the demo? -and did you not feel that it kept with the quality that was WiF? There's only one reason I can think of why someone would not like the Marinacci demo -and that's because they don't like WiF! All I can say in response then is PAA LEEZ HAND IT OVER TO SOMEONE WHO DOES!!

(In reply to David) I'm not a malicious person. I'm sensitive -and astute. And I know right from wrong - and what you guys are doing is wrong! If Chris was tasked with developing an AI then shame on Harry ( or whoever)for linking it's success to an AI though I think ADG has paid the price for the attempt .Since when did AI become part of the WiF experience anyway? I'm getting the feeling that people controlling this project have very little experience actually playing it.

< Message edited by macgregor -- 5/6/2005 9:56:57 PM >

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 52

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 9:47:54 PM

wfzimmerman

Posts: 660
Joined: 10/22/2003
Status: offline

I would be perfectly happy with a PBEM version with cosmetic fixes to the interface and am willing to go on the record as willing to pay up front for it. AI can be phase II.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Hi Macgregor

We are not holding anything hostage... please. We have talked with both Chris and ADG and they wanted both AI and a more streamed lined interface. Without all shouting of if there are truly enough people really just looking for PBEM then this could be the happy solution for everyone.

Macgregor instead of attacking us lets work together and see if we can agree on a solution.

(in reply to David Heath)

Post #: 53

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 10:03:23 PM

Cheesehead

Posts: 418
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Appleton, Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

Perhaps Matrix could start essentially from scratch and produce a game that fulfills your wishes, but to match WiF's current quality it might require another 20 years of playtesting and revision to get back to the level WiF is at today. By departing on a tangent in the name of PBEM, Matrix may well find itself longing for the headaches of developing EiA; don't discard 20 years of the game's evolution please. Perhaps there is a way to deliver PBEM, through the AI, scripting for the non-phasing side, or an optional streamlined mode.

Do you really want to wait another 20, or even 10 years for Computer WiF? I would much rather see the company throw up its hands, admit "can't be done" and move on rather than keep stumbling along until I'm too old to care.

Regarding Macgregors point on the Marinacci demo, I've never even seen it so I wouldn't want to comment on that...but please, Macgregor, cool it with the anger...it's been months since we've heard anything from the folks at Matrix and I do look forward to their updates...verbally abusing them isn't going to contibute to anything other then sending them back into silence.

_____________________________

You can't fight in here...this is the war room!

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 54

RE: It's a disgrace - 5/6/2005 10:15:39 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
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Well, I can't lie. I am angry. I could stop posting. I'm sure Erik could lock me out(I admire that he hasn't). I don't want to be ridiculed for giving a damn(that's for sure).

I think it's clear I'm not out to get Matrix. Though after a year I only hope the converse is also true. Releasing Wif pre AI(I said 'pre' so hold your fire) will not only make me and every other established WiF player happy, but make Matrix a good deal of money. Perhaps even enough to pay for the development of an AI(I said perhaps-that's one hell of alot of code). I don't think I'm asking the world of Matrix except to do what I feel is in it's own best interest. If I had never seen how smooth and true to the boardgame the demo was, I suppose I'd be in the same boat as, say, coregames. But I have seen the demo -and the demo is really good.

< Message edited by macgregor -- 5/6/2005 11:26:46 PM >

(in reply to Cheesehead)

Post #: 55

RE: Marinacci's code - 5/6/2005 11:13:12 PM

Vyshka

Posts: 275
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Chandler, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Let me help translate this. Matrix bought this marinacci demo. Which they don't plan on using. Thus, squelching any chance of it being released as a pbem game. Not because they didn't want it to compete with their releases(my ass) but because the infinite wisdom of matrix says that a game without an AI won't sell more than 500 copies. Matrix is screwing guys like me that just want to play the freaking game with their friends far away. Well you know what you can do with your freaking AI don't you? How much do you guys want for it? I'm serious. As long as you're going to hold the demo hostage, at least let us WiF players how much is the ransome. And please- ask me to buy a matrix product. I dare you. If you think i'm the only person in the world that realizes what matrix is doing to dedicated WiF players for the sake of an AI that anyone who has played the game will tell you is not only NOT part of the WiF experience -but a good ten years of programming away I will say confidently that you are indeed mistaken. Have a nice life, David.

Pasternaski has outlined to me 500 people that should never buy a Matrix product as long as they live. I have a list that's been posted for over 8 years now of players just waiting to play WiF pbem. I will inform each one of them individually ,if necesary, of what has become of their beloved game. Did ADG know you guys were going to do this? I don't think so.

Why not use Cyberboard or Aide De Camp. Better yet use the demo that was at one time released by ADG and quit whining. If ADG didn't want
anything further done with what they already had they would have released it.

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 56

RE: Marinacci's code - 5/6/2005 11:36:19 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vyshka

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Let me help translate this. Matrix bought this marinacci demo. Which they don't plan on using. Thus, squelching any chance of it being released as a pbem game. Not because they didn't want it to compete with their releases(my ass) but because the infinite wisdom of matrix says that a game without an AI won't sell more than 500 copies. Matrix is screwing guys like me that just want to play the freaking game with their friends far away. Well you know what you can do with your freaking AI don't you? How much do you guys want for it? I'm serious. As long as you're going to hold the demo hostage, at least let us WiF players how much is the ransome. And please- ask me to buy a matrix product. I dare you. If you think i'm the only person in the world that realizes what matrix is doing to dedicated WiF players for the sake of an AI that anyone who has played the game will tell you is not only NOT part of the WiF experience -but a good ten years of programming away I will say confidently that you are indeed mistaken. Have a nice life, David.

Pasternaski has outlined to me 500 people that should never buy a Matrix product as long as they live. I have a list that's been posted for over 8 years now of players just waiting to play WiF pbem. I will inform each one of them individually ,if necesary, of what has become of their beloved game. Did ADG know you guys were going to do this? I don't think so.

Why not use Cyberboard or Aide De Camp. Better yet use the demo that was at one time released by ADG and quit whining. If ADG didn't want
anything further done with what they already had they would have released it.

Can't play pbem with the demo. Though perhaps you're right about the other options -laborious and archaic as they might be. If you think I'm whining then I have indeed reached the point of being ridiculed for giving a damn -and shall stop. After this...

Being part Italian, your mentioning of my whining brought back a documentary i was watching on Stalingrad. A German officer exhorted angrily "...the Italians were whining!" Perhaps he would've been better off listening to the 100 or so thousand Soviets that were surrounding his ass. This world owes it's technology, it's freedom of thought,quality of life and work,and democracy(if your lucky enough to have one) to the whiners and complainers that came before us. So while I may not owe you, Mr. Vyshka a 'your welcome' I do at least owe you a 'thank you'.

< Message edited by macgregor -- 5/7/2005 12:10:00 AM >

(in reply to Vyshka)

Post #: 57

RE: Marinacci's code - 5/7/2005 3:25:14 AM

Vyshka

Posts: 275
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Chandler, AZ
Status: offline

If it didnt have pbem capability, what good would it do to have Matrix release it?
Or has it progressed beyond the stage of where it was when it was released by ADG?

sorry whining was probably a little harsh, back is killing me and not a lot of sleep the
last couple of days.

< Message edited by Vyshka -- 5/7/2005 3:27:38 AM >

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 58

RE: Marinacci's code - 5/7/2005 5:07:09 AM

Grotius