Looking for the (old) CWiF beta

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Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/8/2005 4:36:34 PM

JanSorensen

Posts: 3684
Joined: 5/2/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
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If anyone happen to have it I would very much love to see it.

My email is janbs@mail1.stofanet.dk

I have played probably 30 full games of WiF with 4+ players - including many house rules and different incarnations of the rules. Sadly the group I used to play with is no longer (we grew up, I suppose) - so any sort of CWiF would be a welcome passtime till Matrix comes out with a more finished product.

Anything to prevent me and others from forgetting WiF would be good for Matrix sales I would venture :)

Post #: 1

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/8/2005 5:31:31 PM

coregames

Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline

Sorry JanSorensen, but Matrix has requested that the Marinacci beta not be made available anymore, since they feel it would cut into the market for a Matrix version. ADG and Chris Marinacci are cooperating with this request. I suggest Cyberboard as a way to tide you over (you can see information regarding a current CB game of WiF in progress in this forum).

(in reply to JanSorensen)

Post #: 2

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/9/2005 1:52:46 AM

Tetchyy

Posts: 18
Joined: 12/23/2001
From: Toronto, Ontario
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

If anyone happen to have it I would very much love to see it.

My email is janbs@mail1.stofanet.dk

I have played probably 30 full games of WiF with 4+ players - including many house rules and different incarnations of the rules. Sadly the group I used to play with is no longer (we grew up, I suppose) - so any sort of CWiF would be a welcome passtime till Matrix comes out with a more finished product.

Anything to prevent me and others from forgetting WiF would be good for Matrix sales I would venture :)

(in reply to JanSorensen)

Post #: 3

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/10/2005 6:51:15 PM

Mziln

Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline

RE: Beta release? - 9/21/2004 11:11:41 PM

quote:

Erik Rutins
Administrator

Gentlemen,

I've deleted the link. The computer version of WiF is no longer an open product. Please do not distribute it or post links to download it. Thank you for your understanding.

Regards,

- Erik

CWiF was distributed as Freeware but now is no longer an open product. Matrix games is trying to protect the source code of CWiF/MWiF.

At this time, I am continuing to abide with Matrix Games request not to distribute the CWiF beta version.

If Matrix games has a diferent definition of "Open Product" please respond.

Freeware

free�ware
Pronunciation: 'frE-"war, -"wer
Function: noun
Software that is available for use at no cost or for a nominal usually voluntary fee.

Open Product Link: Should "Open Products" Be Mandated By The Antitrust Laws For Software?

For software, this means that an open product provides equal access to the source code for all, preferrably over the Internet, allows any who want to to modify the source code, and restrains only their use of the seller's branding. It does not deny the seller the right to charge usage fees for the software, and this is what makes it different from open source. GPL (General Public License) software is not open product, unless the seller also makes the software available under other license terms.

Source code includes all software, including its documentation, used to modify or build the software.

(in reply to Tetchyy)

Post #: 4

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/10/2005 7:58:51 PM

Cheesehead

Posts: 418
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Appleton, Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

Anything to prevent me and others from forgetting WiF would be good for Matrix sales I would venture :)

What part of the world do you call home? I was able to find local opponents using this site. Another good place to find local opponents is the WiF discussion forum at: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com

John

_____________________________

You can't fight in here...this is the war room!

(in reply to JanSorensen)

Post #: 5

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/10/2005 8:05:25 PM

Mziln

Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
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I never received a reply to my request for access at wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com.

(in reply to Cheesehead)

Post #: 6

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/10/2005 9:39:47 PM

Cheesehead

Posts: 418
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Appleton, Wisconsin
Status: offline

Did you set up an account with yahoo groups? I think you might need to do that, first. They have hundreds of different groups that they provide forums for. If that still doesn't work, let me know and I'll contact Devin (group moderator) and ask for his help.

_____________________________

You can't fight in here...this is the war room!

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 7

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/10/2005 10:23:13 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
CWiF was distributed as Freeware but now is no longer an open product. Matrix games is trying to protect the source code of CWiF/MWiF.

At this time, I am continuing to abide with Matrix Games request not to distribute the CWiF beta version.

If Matrix games has a diferent definition of "Open Product" please respond.

Hello Mzlin, and sorry to contradict you but a Freeware or an open product it never was.

It was freely downloadable because it was an Open Alpha version, it was neither a Demo as I read here & there, it was an Open Alpha Version. Moreover, the source code never was freely downloadable on the website, you only got the compiled version.

It is simply owned by MatrixGames now, and MatrixGames decided it was no longer an open alpha version. It was history.

Best Regards

Patrice

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 8

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/10/2005 11:20:51 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
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A dispute over semantics?

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 9

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/10/2005 11:31:40 PM

coregames

Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

A dispute over semantics?

Not just semantics, the gist of Mziln's post was that the code had been open sourced at one point, which Patrice politely informed us all it was not.

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 10

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/10/2005 11:56:22 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

Ah huh!

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 11

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/11/2005 4:16:48 PM

Mziln

Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hello Mzlin, and sorry to contradict you but a Freeware or an open product it never was.

It was freely downloadable because it was an Open Alpha version, it was neither a Demo as I read here & there, it was an Open Alpha Version. Moreover, the source code never was freely downloadable on the website, you only got the compiled version.

It is simply owned by MatrixGames now, and MatrixGames decided it was no longer an open alpha version. It was history.

Best Regards

Patrice

Yes semantics, "Open Sourced" is not "Open Product".

Sorry Patrice, but ADG didn't charge or limit distribution of the beta. Since I have never heard of an "Open Alpha" it meets the requirements for an "Open Beta". That made it freeware. Since CWiF had not been released and had various aspects turned off it could be considered a demonstration version of the program.

Software that is available for use at no cost or for a nominal usually voluntary fee.

While I requested a alternate definition from Matrix Games of "Open Product". Decompilers of almost any computer laguage are readily available. The definition of...

Source code includes all software, including its documentation, used to modify or build the software.

Is defined by the author to clarify the "Open Product". You don't have to distribute all aspects of the "Source Code" of an "Open Product".

The game software built and modified data (Data software). Documentation on how to play was included. So it meets the criteria of "Source Code". Which is no longer a open product. So it is not to be distributed.

So I stand by my statements.

DEFINITIONS Link: TheFreeDictionary.com

Alpha testing - The first stage in testing a new hardware or software product, usually performed by the in-house developers or programmers. Testing of software at the developer's site by the customer. The stage before beta testing.

Beta testing - Testing a pre-release (potentially unreliable) version of a piece of software by making it available to selected users. A test of new or revised hardware or software that is performed by users at their facilities under normal operating conditions. Beta testing follows alpha testing. Vendors of packaged software often offer their customers the opportunity of beta testing new releases or versions, and the beta testing of elaborate products such as operating systems can take months.

NOTE: I would consider "Testing a pre-release (potentially unreliable) version of a piece of software by making it available to selected users" as "Alpha Testing". But anyone could Dowload CWiF so it would be "Beta Testing".

Computer software (or simply software) refers to one or more computer programs and data held in the storage of a computer for some purpose. Program software performs the function of the program it impliments either by providing the instructions to the computer hardware or by serving as input to another piece of software. Data software exists solely for its eventual use by other program software.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 5/11/2005 6:23:44 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 12

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/12/2005 12:05:45 AM

coregames

Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Yes semantics, "Open Sourced" is not "Open Product".

But in your posted definition of Open Product:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Open Product Link: Should "Open Products" Be Mandated By The Antitrust Laws For Software?

For software, this means that an open product provides equal access to the source code for all, preferrably over the Internet, allows any who want to to modify the source code, and restrains only their use of the seller's branding.

Sounds very much like open source... at least in the access department. That is what you wanted, isn't it? Access to the code so someone other than Matrix could work on it. If not, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

< Message edited by coregames -- 5/12/2005 12:11:15 AM >

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 13

RE: Looking for the (old) CWiF beta - 5/12/2005 5:18:25 AM

Mziln

Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline

Very simular but diferent.

quote:

It does not deny the seller the right to charge usage fees for the software, and this is what makes it different from open source. GPL (General Public License) software is not open product, unless the seller also makes the software available under other license terms.

I was probably the main distributor, at this forum, of CWiF prior to Patrice linking his site to allow downloading of CWiF. I also advised others via e-mail to down load a copy from his site. Patrice even asked my advice on allowing downloading CWiF from his site. I told him If Matrix objected they would let us know.

They did. Matrix requested we quit distributing CWiF which we did imediatly.

More requests of the old beta have started again.

So I went back and re-read the post by Matrix. "What is a Open Product?" I started lookning for a definition. This was the best I have found.

To me:

(1) CWiF was freeware.

(2) "Open Product" means software available to everyone but must retain the sellers branding and can require a usage fee. In this case like "Doom" or "Baldur's Gate" mods which are freeware. Or games that are based on their engines and pay a fee so they can be marketed.

(3) To avoid legal action I will not distribute CWiF at this time.

If I had my way I would still be e-mailing copys of CWiF arround the world. Including the disclaimer that the code was a beta copy and still had bugs. You have no idea how diferent global e-mail dowload rates are. Unless you have had 20 or 30 requests from various countries and had to reconfigure your zip files accordingly on a trial and error basis.

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 14

Marinacci beta - 5/12/2005 9:23:08 AM

coregames

Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
If I had my way I would still be e-mailing copys of CWiF arround the world. Including the disclaimer that the code was a beta copy and still had bugs.

Perhaps CM's excellent attempt at this gargantuan project does deserve more. It has bugs, the interface could be improved, and the graphics aren't at the highest level, but there is no mistaking the quality underlying those issues. It really did capture the essence of the board game.

One approach Matrix might take would be, as has been suggested a few times in this forum, dust off Chris's beta. They could work out most of the remaining bugs, and use it as the core of a new round of pre-alpha testing. By attaching various interfaces and multiplayer modes to get an idea of what works, Matrix could explore the possibilities while examining the various design issues (PBEM, AI, etc...), in preparation for a full redesign, mostly from scratch, but with the advantage of lessons learned during this early process.

If they released such a CM beta-based "tester" application to the public, that would both tide WiFers over and provide a virtually inexhaustable source of feedback. Another option would be to allow a pre-purchase of MWiF, giving the buyer access to the beta process (including CM's), as well as a copy of the final gold release. I know I would want to pony up the full price in advance for the right to be heard in the development process, as would I'm sure many others.

Are these thoughts in keeping with what you are talking about Mziln?

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 15

RE: Marinacci beta - 5/12/2005 5:13:43 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames
... dust off Chris's beta. They could work out most of the remaining bugs

Hold on.

There is nothing worse in the world than debugging someone else's code.

Also, the core code will need to be written in such a way that facilitates AI and/or PBEM and/or TCP/IP and/or whatever else is to be included in the final game. Trying to add on such features to code that was not designed with them in mind is asking for a myriad of small bugs that seem to breed when you try to squash them.

As a professional programmer, I can easily argue that the game will make it to deployment quicker by rewriting from scratch using lessons learned from CWiF.

My goodness, people, the deal hasn't been signed for much more than 6 months --- Give them some time.

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 16

RE: Marinacci beta - 5/12/2005 5:27:45 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
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October 21st, 2003 -I'd say they've had it longer than 6 months. I guess alot depends on how experienced a programmer Chris Marinacci is. I'm impressed by the apparent playability of the demo. It would appear there are some that would have me believe the demo he made is a mess, and that even he can't sort it out -as I've been told he's now part of the team. Does anyone know anything about Chris Marinacci?

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 17

RE: Marinacci beta - 5/12/2005 10:07:02 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

I think that Chris is not part of Matrix's Team. They may contact him, but he's not in the project, at least, as far as I know.
I'm not even sure he reads this forum.

Regards

Patrice

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 18

RE: Marinacci beta - 5/12/2005 10:18:23 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor
October 21st, 2003

Yes

, I joined Matrix's forums that day, only to follow WiF discussions.
It's been a long time, and my hopes of one day playing WiF over TCP/IP with friends over the web have waned & waxed, and I must recognize that they never were lower than now.
The higher they were was when we were playtesting CWiF day & night, sometime it was advancing at a relatively fast pace, new rules being coded and new features added, sometime 3 monhs passed without updates, but never has the project been still for 19 months.

Cheers !

Patrice

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 19

RE: Marinacci beta - 5/12/2005 10:44:15 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

My goodness, people, the deal hasn't been signed for much more than 6 months --- Give them some time.

I stand corrected ... it has been more than a year and 6 months....

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 20

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Looking for the (old) CWiF beta