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A few thoughts (long) - 6/26/2000 5:16:00 PM   
McGib

 

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I'm a huge SP fan and am thrilled that WAW has been made, but I do have a few thoughts/questions about the game after playing it a bit. It seems to me there are a lot of damaged shots as opposed to kill shots. E.g. I'm trying a WWII Ger campaign and fighting the Poles I'm having a big problem knocking out there tanks. I'm using 35's and 38's and they have 7-TP's. Shots from 3-4 hexes away are 80% of the time are not kill's. After some research at www.achtungpanzer.com I've found that I should be penatrating the Poles front armor at about 2000m and my armor at 1000m. So why do I have to be so close? Second it really seems to me that the computer has really large formations in the WWII generated campaigns. I have 3 panzer platoons and 3 inf platoons plus some 88's and recon units. The computer is throwing like 40 odd AFV's and maybe a 1000 inf. A fair average, assuming of course I dont have to park my tanks next to his to get a kill. For me one major preference for SP1 over SP3 was the small unit actions (company size), I hope that seeing battalion size formations is just part of SP:WAW growing pains. Despite what I've said great works guys and keep em' comming!

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- 6/26/2000 5:21:00 PM   
Deutscher Aufklarung

 

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It's funny you say that. I just finished downloading the v2.0 (upgrade patch) and played a german blitzkrieg campaign (september '39). I could not for the life of me knock out one of the polish tanks. In addition, before I could keep trying, the darn thing crashed. What to do? ------------------ "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

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Post #: 2
- 6/26/2000 5:24:00 PM   
McGib

 

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I fired an 88 at one 7-TP from a range of oh say 4-5 hexes only to hear TWANG! Not saying there's saying anything wrong with the game but something sure smells fishy!

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Post #: 3
- 6/26/2000 5:37:00 PM   
Drake666

 

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I gess you guys most be new to the game. First Armour and penatration values are very will done and is more like real WW2 combat condetions. A lot of the time on the battlefield shills would not penatrate becouse of the loss of energy and the angle it hit the target at. This happens more often in the early war. As to killing the Polish tanks, I always destroyed 6 for every one that I immobilized. You just got to now what to do. Second it really seems to me that the computer has really large formations in the WWII generated campaigns. As for this, its depinds a lot on your settings and also what is a big factor is that the AI is not good and needs the extra units.

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Post #: 4
- 6/26/2000 5:56:00 PM   
Voriax

 

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quote:

Originally posted by McGib: I fired an 88 at one 7-TP from a range of oh say 4-5 hexes only to hear TWANG! Not saying there's saying anything wrong with the game but something sure smells fishy!
Your 88 gunners didn't aim properly Really, when you score a hit you cannot tell where it actually hits. So maybe your 88 hit a turret, but instead of hitting it 'face on' it only scored a glancing hit. Sort of near miss. Such hit would surely dent some metal and make the tank crew feel like bats in the belltower. Also because the hit angle and armour angles are counted in you may just have a straight ricochet or you may see a very high armour value due to the very small impact angle. As for damaging shots, there is always a possibility that a shot penetrates but only does some damage. This ratio is adjusted in the patch and the kills should be easier to get now. I haven't played yet with the smaller guns but for example the 50mm KWK/43 against Stuarts causes a lot of first penetration kills now. Voriax

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Post #: 5
- 6/27/2000 10:20:00 AM   
Larry Holt

 

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quote:

Originally posted by McGib: ... It seems to me there are a lot of damaged shots as opposed to kill shots. E.g. I'm trying a WWII Ger campaign and fighting the Poles I'm having a big problem knocking out there tanks. I'm using 35's and 38's and they have 7-TP's. Shots from 3-4 hexes away are 80% of the time are not kill's.... I've found that I should be penatrating the Poles front armor at about 2000m and my armor at 1000m. So why do I have to be so close?
There is a difference between penetration and penetration near a critical system and with enough energy to break it and create a kill. Small rounds, such as your 37 mms, just don't have much residual energy after penetrating. That's why you often get pentrations but not kills. It has been discussed that side shots are more effective than close frontal ones so your tactics should focus on maneuvering for side shots. I know this can be difficult as you can spend several turns maneuvering to the enemy's flank only to have them turn and give you a frontal shot again. To counter this, have mutually supporting forces so that if the enemy faces one force, the other can get flank shots. Advancing on multiple, mutually supporting axis' or establishing defensive positions with interlocking fields of fire are tactics to achieve this. Addtionally, you should be maneuvering and shooting platoons, not indivual tanks. This gives you more units to shoot each enemy target with so while your probability of a kill/shot is low, multipling that by more shots increases your chances for a kill. This does, of course, limit the number of enemy units that you can simoultaneously engage. To counter this, don't try to defend everywhere at once (he who whould defend everywhere defends nowhere - source unknown to me). Use obstacles, smoke, terrain and infantry/AT ambushes to isolate the targets you want to engage from supporting fires from the rest of the enemy force. Good luck. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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Post #: 6
- 6/27/2000 10:42:00 AM   
victorhauser

 

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As I recall, the "He who defends everything, defends nothing" is from von Clauswitz. However, all great generals knew the principle: Alexander, Napoleon, Chingis Khan, et al.

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Post #: 7
- 6/27/2000 10:50:00 AM   
McGib

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt: [QUOTE]Originally posted by McGib: ... It seems to me there are a lot of damaged shots as opposed to kill shots. E.g. I'm trying a WWII Ger campaign and fighting the Poles I'm having a big problem knocking out there tanks. I'm using 35's and 38's and they have 7-TP's. Shots from 3-4 hexes away are 80% of the time are not kill's.... I've found that I should be penatrating the Poles front armor at about 2000m and my armor at 1000m. So why do I have to be so close?
There is a difference between penetration and penetration near a critical system and with enough energy to break it and create a kill. Small rounds, such as your 37 mms, just don't have much residual energy after penetrating. That's why you often get pentrations but not kills. It has been discussed that side shots are more effective than close frontal ones so your tactics should focus on maneuvering for side shots. I know this can be difficult as you can spend several turns maneuvering to the enemy's flank only to have them turn and give you a frontal shot again. To counter this, have mutually supporting forces so that if the enemy faces one force, the other can get flank shots. Advancing on multiple, mutually supporting axis' or establishing defensive positions with interlocking fields of fire are tactics to achieve this. Addtionally, you should be maneuvering and shooting platoons, not indivual tanks. This gives you more units to shoot each enemy target with so while your probability of a kill/shot is low, multipling that by more shots increases your chances for a kill. This does, of course, limit the number of enemy units that you can simoultaneously engage. To counter this, don't try to defend everywhere at once (he who whould defend everywhere defends nowhere - source unknown to me). Use obstacles, smoke, terrain and infantry/AT ambushes to isolate the targets you want to engage from supporting fires from the rest of the enemy force. Good luck. [/B][/QUOTE] Sorry I was not clear the first time ... I should have mentioned I was including flank shots. As to maneuvering, its kinda hard when your 15 tanks are facing 40+ tanks! But thanks for the advice.

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Post #: 8
- 6/27/2000 11:27:00 AM   
Larry Holt

 

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quote:

Originally posted by McGib: Sorry I was not clear the first time ... I should have mentioned I was including flank shots. As to maneuvering, its kinda hard when your 15 tanks are facing 40+ tanks! But thanks for the advice.
I know well the difficulty in killing POL tanks with 37mms. I'm about to load the patch and restart my campaign so I'll have to do it again. If you can't solve the problem, redefine the problem. IRL, the Germans moved AT guns up with their tank forces and if they were getting beat, withdrew behind the AT screen, waited until the enemy impaled themselves on the guns then reattacked with their tanks. The 37mm towed AT guns probably still have the same problem at tanks. At Arras, et. al. they brought up 88's to save the day. In this situation I'm not adverse to setting up ambushes with mines and engineers/infantry/88s behind smoke to cut off enemy long range fires. The enemy will move forward into your ambushes and be attrited. Meanwhile, continue to maneuver those tanks into the enemy rear to destroy artillery and infantry and attrit enemy tanks from the flanks and rear. It will take awhile (20 turns or so) but eventually you'll build up fire superiority and they will break. While this may seem frustrating (you can't just decimate them with long range fires like later in the war), it shows how to use combined arms tactics and give for a good fight. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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Post #: 9
- 6/27/2000 11:43:00 AM   
Larry Holt

 

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From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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quote:

Originally posted by victorhauser: ... However, all great generals knew the principle: Alexander, Napoleon, Chingis Khan, et al.
Lets not forget all those great majors either: Disaster, Nuisance, Holt, Annoyance... ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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Post #: 10
- 6/27/2000 12:16:00 PM   
Charles22

 

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The overall solution to the problem is cost-effectiveness. The more cheap AT units you have the less being outnumbered will matter. In other words buy AT guns in support. By that I mean NOT 88 flaks. The common Gerry 38mm AT gun can be quite effective from up to 15 hexes, but regardless, you always manage a 'top' hit every once in a while if you have higher ground. I'm starting to buy four or more AT guns as support (besides the two or more I have core already), when facing being outnumbered and it's quite the thing. Remember, the enemy often has to motor with units costing in excess of thirty points, just to come up against guns which are much cheaper. The non-88 style AT guns can 'hide' quite well. Let them fire at about 15 hex range, don't let enemy infantry/recon get within 12 (maybe less) hexes of them, and you can fire three or four times a player turn and remain hidden. After that, just shut the gun down so it won't op fire, and shoot three or four more times next turn.

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Post #: 11
- 6/27/2000 12:44:00 PM   
Charles22

 

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BTW, employing the method to which I spoke, my current battle is 9/39 against the Poles. I've been like 5 turns into his advance and destroyed like 15 of his tanks (including the tw) and have not suffered ONE HIT to my tanks. Certainly that's quite exceptional, but the key isn't always whether a very high percentage of your hits are penetrating or not, but whether you firing as much as he is (when on defense). It also helps to let the enemy close until some of your hits have a chance to penetrate (such as maybe 15 hexes or less with the 37mm). Now, of course this strategy is somewhat bankrupt against the French S-35's, but by then you can upgrade 20mm flaks in core to 88's and you can keep the 88's in a linited role to use it decisively in spots, so that it can fire a lot of times with only one or two units able to counter it's fire. I do this so that the 88 can survive from battle to battle. As was the case with the S-35's when I dealt with them, remember, even if you're not penetrating, if the enemy isn't hitting, much less penetrating you're in a draw at worst. The Polish conflict to which I spoke, shows, if you analysed every last shot I had, that there wasn't a very high damage rate with hits, but on the other hand, the war was being won because the enemy wasn't hitting AT ALL. The French S-35's and the like, are burdened with inadequate crews, so that the while they have great armor, they suffer from the inability to actually do much hitting. Place about four 88's in areas where only a few enemy tanks can counter their fire (such as behind hills, overlooking just a few hexes in front of an area you want to defend), and watch what French stuff can get through, get torched. In the battle where I faced the 150 S-35's, the 88's I had probably didn't torch more than 6 S-35's, but the 88's never received any counterfire either. As well, infantry placed well can take out many S-35's. I place my infantry generally no more than four or five hexes in front of my tanks, so that when the S-35's started getting assaulted by infantry, he'd decided he'd had enough and quit, having lost something along the lines of 3960 to 23. I'm glad the battle ended there or I would've started losing some core units, but this shows another strategy, and that is to don't ever give up, because the next turn may be the one where, even if he's giving it to you pretty good, that he decides that he's lost too much. Them S-35's may be hard to dent, but they sure are expensive!!!

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Post #: 12
- 6/27/2000 12:53:00 PM   
Larry Holt

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Charles22: BTW, employing the method to which I spoke, my current battle is 9/39 against the Poles. I've been like 5 turns into his advance and destroyed like 15 of his tanks (including the tw) and have not suffered ONE HIT to my tanks....
Good post Charles. I enjoy reading about tactics that work (in addition to OOB problems, etc.).

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Never take counsel of your fears.

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Post #: 13
- 6/27/2000 1:00:00 PM   
Panther

 

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I have read on many occasions that polish ramor gave good account for itself when fighting the germans. Side by side the tp7 were a good match for pz35 and pzIII. Most of the failures of combat that occured happened on a more strategic level where the poles had to abanden a lot of their armor due to lack of fuel and or parts. This is not reflected here very well because of the scale of the battle field. In some cases there are incredible odds that you are faced with. It is in my conclusion that when doing the germans in a campaign the computer needs odds of about 3 to 1 or more to make it fun due to the limitations of the AI jugment (If such thing exists). Panther

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Post #: 14
- 6/27/2000 4:24:00 AM   
talon

 

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I have to agree with Panther . The tp7 where the best tanks on the field but the poles had only 135 . These where superior to all german tanks expect the 400 PzKpfw IV and 98 PzKpfw III . With PzKpfw II and 35 (t) you should be at a disadvantage . The Pz 38(t) should on the same level as the TP7 .

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